Collingwood List Management Thread

[mattys123]

Would we want Patrick Ryder from Essendon?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/trade-talk-over-ryder/story-e6frf9io-1226082559882

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

He is basically a Josh Fraser type of player, one who will go throughout an entire career without really finding a spot that is perfect for him at senior level.

He is a decent no.1 ruck on his day, but his consistency is woeful, and his efforts around the ground are sometimes laughable.

He won't be traded anyway, Hille is close to be being finished, and Bellchambers is too inexperienced to go it alone.

Plus the only clubs he would agree to be traded to are in WA, and they won't be trading for rucks for a while.

 

[TradeDraft]

HS said Goldsack could be Traded and Said he could go to Freo,Saints or Tigers

 

[carnthepies19]

I personally think Goldsack is gone too, he hasn't hit form at all this year, I know he had a virus in the pre season but really, after 15 weeks of footy, he should be up there in the 22. He's been dropped multiple times and too many players are ahead of him, so he can't just walk back in and take his spot in the back line. I'm looking forward to this year's trade week

 

[carnthepies19]

HS said Goldsack could be Traded and Said he could go to Freo,Saints or Tigers

Here's the HS article http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...e-trading-places/story-fn7si05c-1226088308539

 

[HFF]

Goldy won't be traded unless an amazing offer came in for him during trade week that we simply couldn't refuse.

He is contracted for next season and as has been mentioned, is playing catch up from an injury interrupted pre-season.

Don't forget last season he battled too and worked his way back into the side for the prelim and the GF replay.

He also is very happy at Collingwood.

 

[Scottabe_pendles]

Does anyone think Keefe could become a similar type to Jackson tengrove (port) obviously took him a while to be able to do some part time rucking (tengrove) but now he's a solid back and backup Ruck... Just thought positionally and physically would be the best fit for Keefe long term?

 

[HFF]

Does anyone think Keefe could become a similar type to Jackson tengrove (port) obviously took him a while to be able to do some part time rucking (tengrove) but now he's a solid back and backup Ruck... Just thought positionally and physically would be the best fit for Keefe long term?

The problem is, we do not shuffle around back six so for Keeffe to spend time in the ruck, he has to spend his other time as a forward.

The back six at Collingwood spend 99% of the game on the ground so if Keeffe heads down the Jackson Trengove path and plays key back and then ruck, he certainly won't be doing that at Collingwood.

 

[Scodog10]

He also doesn't have the leap to ever be like Trengove. Keefe can barely get off the ground and you need to be either Sandilands height or Brad Ottens weight to get away with having no leap. Keefe has neither so it means that the new breed of ruckman (Goldstein, Naitanui, Ryder, Kruezer, Leuenberger and Martin) will just jump all over him.

 

[carnthepies19]

I don't think Keefe will have a spot on our team, we will only use him if one of our KPD's are down, but then still we would have either N.Brown or Taz to cover (Depending on which one is the preffered next year) Taz is coming to the end of his career, but I doubt Keefe would push Brown out of the way to take his spot. If Keefe can't jump that rules out rucking, and our KPF's are strong in Cloke and Dawes, Keefe could step in there and go back while a defender goes forward. He's a very tricky guy, and it would take a monster effort for him to crack a permanent spot in the 22.

 

[Knightmare]

Those saying Goldsack could be traded are right. If he requests it, then it is best to move him on.

Would be a starting 22 guy in any other team and could easily be a 200 gamer as mentioned in the article.

I wouldn't trade him for less than a 1st rounder. But in a deal for one of the GWS 17 year olds, I'd consider including him in that deal because he is a great asset with his athleticism, tackling + long kicking.



With regard to Keeffe. I have mentioned him as a possible trade option. But my mind has changed entirely with regard to Keeffe. I think he does have big future value to us. Would be a best 22 player for a number of other teams, but I think he can be for us.
What if N.Brown continues to get injuries once Tarrant is retired? Keeffe would be the natural KPD option to have playing with Reid.
If this is not an issue then Keeffe is more than just a solid backup KPD and could eventually replace L.Brown once he learns the role. Quick learner and no doubt he could be some variation and probable improvement with time.
I see a big future for him at the club even if it isn't this year because he has shown consistant development which is the key with these kinds of talls.

 

[SchuPie]

Those saying Goldsack could be traded are right. If he requests it, then it is best to move him on.

Would be a starting 22 guy in any other team and could easily be a 200 gamer as mentioned in the article.

I wouldn't trade him for less than a 1st rounder. But in a deal for one of the GWS 17 year olds, I'd consider including him in that deal because he is a great asset with his athleticism, tackling + long kicking.


--- Knight: He's one i don't want to lose but i think you're right - we need to give up something to get something and if he wants to leave we have to maximise our return
I've half prepared myself for us to do some major wheeling and dealing at the end of the year...and for us to lose some big names to grab some super young talent

we CANNOT sit still; i don't think we can sit on our hands and expect the same 22 to get the job done again...and I think we need to refresh the list with some midfield youth...and you need high picks or trades to do so - esp as we may not have a real go at a high draft pick for quite some time due to our ladder position / introduction of new teams / concessions.

Perhaps I am ignoring the need for talls but I think in the next couple years we will score 1-2 through our investment through the NSW Scholarship Scheme...but i also think (perhaps, hope) that one may fall in our lap ala Reid2 / Brown2 returning to Vic in exchange for a pick in 1-2 years time

Of course i could be completely wrong and i completely trust our recruiting dept / list management team.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

Those saying Goldsack could be traded are right. If he requests it, then it is best to move him on.

Would be a starting 22 guy in any other team and could easily be a 200 gamer as mentioned in the article.

I wouldn't trade him for less than a 1st rounder.

Then you wouldn't trade him, because we wouldn't get a first-rounder for him.

 

[carnthepies19]

Then you wouldn't trade him, because we wouldn't get a first-rounder for him.

We might just in this year's draft, because in most cases the first round draft pick would be above pick 18, which would, if there were no concessions, be the end of the first round. So most teams would be giving up **in a normal draft** an early to mid second round pick, which would be fair. Maybe we could toss in another player who is looking for a fresh start for the 1st round and a 3rd/4th round pick.

 

[Ed D]

I don't think Keefe will have a spot on our team, we will only use him if one of our KPD's are down, but then still we would have either N.Brown or Taz to cover (Depending on which one is the preffered next year) Taz is coming to the end of his career, but I doubt Keefe would push Brown out of the way to take his spot. If Keefe can't jump that rules out rucking, and our KPF's are strong in Cloke and Dawes, Keefe could step in there and go back while a defender goes forward. He's a very tricky guy, and it would take a monster effort for him to crack a permanent spot in the 22.

Not sure about that. Keeffe is quick, tall, has good kicking skills and takes one grab contested marks. I think it's only a matter of time before he starts getting given a go to prove himself. If he can play well we can always find a way to get him into the side because he does have the skills to play more than one type of role.

 

[soreplums]

Out of interest... who do people rate higher?

Buckley or Goldsack?

 

[Ed D]

Out of interest... who do people rate higher?

Buckley or Goldsack?

If both are fit I'd rather Goldsack over Buckley, although I think Buckley could have a higher potential, which I'm not sure he'll ever reach.

 

[Knightmare]

Then you wouldn't trade him, because we wouldn't get a first-rounder for him.

Could be right. Depends what other clubs are willing to give.

That's why the trade I would go after is one with GWS for one of the 17 year olds - which probably would have to include perhaps a Macaffer or similar high level established player.

Otherwise possibly a trade for Tom Hawkins would be the other option I'd look at if it came to the stage where we had to trade him- which many other Pies fans would not agree to.
But I do like Hawkins because he is a solid backup forward to Dawes/Cloke and could potentially replace L.Brown if necessary. Gives us that forward insurance as Keeffe does down back. Think if we got him he could become better than insurance given our success with bigs of a similar stature.

we CANNOT sit still; i don't think we can sit on our hands and expect the same 22 to get the job done again...and I think we need to refresh the list with some midfield youth...and you need high picks or trades to do so - esp as we may not have a real go at a high draft pick for quite some time due to our ladder position / introduction of new teams / concessions.

Perhaps I am ignoring the need for talls but I think in the next couple years we will score 1-2 through our investment through the NSW Scholarship Scheme...but i also think (perhaps, hope) that one may fall in our lap ala Reid2 / Brown2 returning to Vic in exchange for a pick in 1-2 years time

Of course i could be completely wrong and i completely trust our recruiting dept / list management team.

I'm really monitoring carefully at the ruck, KPF + KPD depth and have been for a long time. This is how I see it.

Ruck: Jolly, Wood, Ceglar, Witts (New), McNamara (Gone) - fine until Jolly retires.

KPF: Cloke, Dawes, L.Brown, Jack Perham (Gone), Declan Reilly (Possible gone) - Need more.
Starcevich is a possible given F/S eligable, right now my preference is to pass on him and take Eddy who has been fantastic at VFL level because he has shown at VFL that he can regular kick 3 goals as well as play within our structure. Obviously out for the season now, but I'd still take him because he has shown enough.
James Stewart to come in 2012 as 1st rounder through F/S.

KPD: Reid, N.Brown, Tarrant, Keeffe, Gordon (Would like to retain), Hartley (New) - Good.

The NSW/ACT program is really giving us a super boost in our ruck + KPP stocks.

We might look at adding +1 KPF+KPD outside of these calculations. But that is really optional because we have enough in each bracket who can play now. Jolly + Wood as ruckman are fine for play nows. Reid, N.Brown, Tarrant + Keeffe is more than good enough for those that can play now. Cloke, Dawes + L.Brown is fine for play nows because durable. Eddy if we get him I think would be good enough to add to that with some of his VFL performances if he continues to build on that.


As for getting better. The way I'm looking is for something like Goldsack + Macaffer for one of the GWS 17 year olds. With the bidding system I'd be fine with the 3rd pick for 2011 of those 17 year olds and would go with Jake Stringer (who is a Brendan Goddard style game changer). Of the 2012 draftees I like him the most outside of O'Meara + Whitfield.

Stringer is a very solid way to get better + improve, even if it is in a long term way.

Outside of this just have to keep looking and see if anyone we really like comes onto the trade table.

Out of interest... who do people rate higher?

Buckley or Goldsack?

I'd go Goldsack anyday. Think he has potential to be a regular AA player for an oppo team to be honest. Just really frustrates me that we can't find him a regular spot in the best 22 because he would be in any other best 18.

But take nothing away from Buckley. Having a solid season and it's fantastic to see him getting a chance.

 

[soreplums]

Hine said on TAC that the club was interested in Buckley back then as an 18 year old.

It is possible that both Leon and Johnson may not be on out list in 2012- could potentially open up a regular gig down back- Buckley or Goldsack?

I see more trade value in Goldy than Buckley- which may be better off for the club long term, plus I can see Buckley and other young players on our list be able to cover that 6th back line position. If we need that 6th position to be a small defender and a "Mop Up" type role- then a Rounds or Sinclair could be developed into that role. Buckley could do it and we have Young learning in the wings as well.
And if Marty returns.....

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

My 3 to delist at the moment are:
Rounds, J.Thomas, Sinclair - Just haven't made their mark in the past two seasons mainly due to injuries. I wouldn't mind J Thomas coming back as a rookie. I am prepared to give Dick another season but would be on his last chance if he can't stay healthy. Simon Buckley has broken into the first team and has played really well. He is definately ahead of the three I have listed and should be safe.

Trade bait:
Goldsack, Macaffer, Wellingham - I wouldn't mind keeping these three as they are very good depth players but if Hamish McIntosh is available, I would see if North would have any interest in the three I have listed. We have learned this season that Cameron Wood is not going to get the job done when Jolly retires. If we can't get a player via trade that will improve the team, then we should keep all three.

Possible retirements:
None. We are still gunning for a premiership and therefore older players like Ben Johnson, Leigh Brown and Leon Davis still deserve their spots on the list. Unless a younger player out performs the veterans like Blair did to Shane O'Bree last year, Macaffer did to Medhurst etc then they should stay imo. Even if the coaching staff thinks a player like Buckley has taken Ben Johnson's spot in the team, we could still use Johnson's experience in the VFL as they have been pretty bad this season without a veteran to lead the way.

 

[HFF]

Why do people continue to use Wellingham as bait? Have these same people not learnt from the lessons of 2009 when we were supposedly trying to offload him for Luke Ball, yet nobody would bite?

He has become a genuine best 21 player and is as talented as any young star on our list. He is not "bait" under any circumstances.

With the draft being incredibly thin (as has been mooted), there's no way known the club will cull three players they internally rate highly in Rounds, Thomas and Sinclair (although I wouldn't be disappointed in seeing Sinclair go as I don't see much in him to be honest).

Macaffer and Goldy may be bait options, however, we are in a wonderful position where we don't exactly need to trade looking at the age and state of our list so I don't expect us to be too heavily involved this time round unless a cracking deal was on offer.

The NSW scholarship system will be quite pivotal for us this season, particularly as two of the players we are almost certain to take are KPP/Ruck in Witts and Hartley- which is massive considering the KPP in this year's crop is supposedly very weak.

 

[4#Didak#4]

In a thin draft, cherry picked by GWS, that we are going to be at the back of we need to be looking at other ways to improve the list.

Trading for the 17yo seems to me the best way. This will mean giving something up to GWS to snag a future star. This will depend a fair bit on what they want and not what we want to give away. The picture will become clearer as they compile their list.

The 2012 draft is going to be the one we want to be in as its rumoured to be great talent already. This is a way we can get in to the top end of the 2012 draft.

However, the catch is that these picks are going to be auctioned to the highest bidder. There will be other clubs around with the same ideas - including GC who have more high picks to pass on. So we are going to have to be prepared to offer something substantial.

 

[DermiesLuvChild]

Why do people continue to use Wellingham as bait? Have these same people not learnt from the lessons of 2009 when we were supposedly trying to offload him for Luke Ball, yet nobody would bite?

He has become a genuine best 21 player and is as talented as any young star on our list. He is not "bait" under any circumstances.

With the draft being incredibly thin (as has been mooted), there's no way known the club will cull three players they internally rate highly in Rounds, Thomas and Sinclair (although I wouldn't be disappointed in seeing Sinclair go as I don't see much in him to be honest).

Macaffer and Goldy may be bait options, however, we are in a wonderful position where we don't exactly need to trade looking at the age and state of our list so I don't expect us to be too heavily involved this time round unless a cracking deal was on offer.

The NSW scholarship system will be quite pivotal for us this season, particularly as two of the players we are almost certain to take are KPP/Ruck in Witts and Hartley- which is massive considering the KPP in this year's crop is supposedly very weak.

My understanding of the proposed Wellingham deal was as follows: Wellingham to North for their pick 25, which was to be on traded to WB, who in turn would send Everitt to St Kilda, then Ball to Collingwood. Hence Collingwood lose Wellingham & gain Ball. However WB refused to allow Everitt go at that time, so deal floundered on the last trade day.
I believe that North (Scott) was very keen to get Wellingham & had pushed this deal (as the former Pie ass coach had first hand info on Wellingham).
Collingwood offered St Kilda pick 30 (rejected) & then Goldsack (rejected).
I think that Collingwood are very happy to have Ball, Wellingham & Goldsack on our list.
Wellingham value has increased since then & should be kept on our list.
If Pies go back to back this year then perhaps Johno & Leon will call it quits, taking the pressure of the younger players yet to establish themselves.

 

[jefffff34]

I would blow up if Sinkers got delisted, for me he has heaps more upside than Josh Thomas, who didn't look fit on the weekend.

 

[HFF]

I would blow up if Sinkers got delisted, for me he has heaps more upside than Josh Thomas, who didn't look fit on the weekend.

I don't think he has more upside. His kicking is ordinary.

Josh Thomas is probably the best youngster and most promising we have currently out of the side yet to play a senior game IMO. His skill set is far better than Sinclair's.

In regards to his fitness, it was his first game for the season coming off a foot injury.

 

[soreplums]

I don't think any of Sinclair, Rounds or Thomas will be delisted this year.

More likely that Johnno and Leon will retire or play elsewhere (particularly if we win the flag). If Johnno retires from senior footy, he could still play in our VFL team as an on field coach/leader if he desires. Otherwise I'm sure that GWS or another club would be happy to pick him up for a year or two.

That makes two list changes. The third could be from Goldy or J-Mac wanting a fresh start elsewhere or Dick (re-rookie option? Also Carl Pederson has been playing well in the Ammos and I think will be back on an AFL list next year. Has sorted himself out could be a good replacement).

Doubt that we would trade Wellingham. The ONLY reason I could possibly see this happening is if he is packaged with Goldy to get O'Meara to reduce salary cap pressure over the next three years until Pendles, Thomas, Cloke, Shaw are are considered for Vets list.

I rate Wellers highly and would hate for this to happen- but if it helps us keeping a strong group of Swan, Thomas, Pendles, Cloke, Dawes, Reid, Shaw, N Brown, Sidey, Beams etc and net a potential Wellingham replacement in O'Meara- then I'll be open to it.