Collingwood List Management Thread

[mattys123]

Am I crazy for thinking we should consider drafting Fev as a mature-age rookie?

Yeah you are crazy.

I understand we lack depth in the key position area, at both ends of the ground really, but we tried to address that a little bit at the last draft.

We took Ceglar in the Krak deal, and we also added long term height in Gordon, Perham, Reilly, and of course we have gotten lucky with the "behemoth" in Witts.

I think it wouldn't hurt to trade a fringe mid or back (J-Mac for example) for a similarly classed key position player from another club, or even look at the local leagues around Australia and try and find a Duigan or the next Podsiadly.

But to Fev, no, we are a stable club, with a playing group that is very tight knit, and we will have a new coaching setup next year, so the last thing we need is a destablising figure like Fev.

 

[Axl the great]

Just a query on J Mac, he is one player who is very much on the fringe at senior level and does not have a lot of love on this board at the minute.

Jmac is a hard in an under mid capable of accumulating a lot of disposals,that is his best position and when dropped he goes back to the VFL, plays that role and does it very well.

However at senior level he is asked to do a job as a defensive forward, sacrificing much of his natural game and people slag the guy for for it, i feel for him because he deserves better than that.

i can almost guarantee that if he were at a different club playing his natural position then he would be a lot more advanced in his improvement and confidence to perform than he is right now.

Maybe there is no room? its a tough side to break into no doubt, but to ask a guy to player AFL in what is a totally new role to what he has been used to is bloody tough.

Leon played that role last year and his stats and impact except fwd 50 tackles dropped dramatically, its no coincidence.

I just hope this is to experiment and give the bloke a different experience, because it may well give him long term benefit as a part of our side but it sure as hell is not helping his reputation amongst fans in the short term but IMO that is far from his fault.

Players who have the ability do not show it being in and out of the team, sub player every 2nd week as well as being played in an unfamiliar role and this kid has copped all of the above.

 

[Bay Pie]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...ime-in-two-years/story-e6frf9jf-1226119265703

Goosey highlighted defender Mark Baguley as an AFL prospect after a 31-possession best-afield display.

Baguley also collected 14 marks and even kicked two goals. The 24-year-old is hot on Collingwood's radar and recently met Pies officials.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...ime-in-two-years/story-e6frf9jf-1226119265703

D.O.B: 21/05/87. Height: 180cm. Weight: 81kg. Position: Half Back.

 

[TradeDraft]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...ime-in-two-years/story-e6frf9jf-1226119265703

Goosey highlighted defender Mark Baguley as an AFL prospect after a 31-possession best-afield display.

Baguley also collected 14 marks and even kicked two goals. The 24-year-old is hot on Collingwood's radar and recently met Pies officials.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...ime-in-two-years/story-e6frf9jf-1226119265703

D.O.B: 21/05/87. Height: 180cm. Weight: 81kg. Position: Half Back.

Don't we have already Quite a Few Similar Types as him already on the List?

 

[Bay Pie]

Don't we have already Quite a Few Similar Types as him already on the List?

Not sure Dave. He is a smallish HBF. We may be looking to replace Johnno and/or Leon if they decide to retire. A ready to contribute player that can provide run and carry in year one.

 

[TradeDraft]

Not sure Dave. He is a smallish HBF. We may be looking to replace Johnno and/or Leon if they decide to retire. A ready to contribute player that can provide run and carry in year one.

Fair Enough I was thinking he was more of a Heater/Harry O Type

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Not sure Dave. He is a smallish HBF. We may be looking to replace Johnno and/or Leon if they decide to retire. A ready to contribute player that can provide run and carry in year one.

Marty Clarke fits the bill

 

[blaze036]

i wouldnt want clarke back at the club, doesnt have the passion.

 

[Knightmare]

Just thought I'd pop in to confirm something guys.

The big name player we're going for IS Goddard. Whether we get him or not is obviously another ball game. But it was confirmed to me that Goddard is definitely the player we're after. Obviously this is all in a year or so's time when Free Agency kicks in.

What worries me, is that, are we going for Goddard because we know we're losing someone else? Pendles perhaps?

He also said Maxy's problem's go beyond his thumb. Nick's knee is f**ked as well. Similar issue to Jolly with bone on bone, which would explain his form all year too. I assume he'll be operated on in the off season for the knee.

On the Goddard point. Great to hear it's Goddard (if true) and not a Sylvia/Vince we are going after. Would be a fantastic addition with the versatility he can add. Particularly impressive in those grand finals and would be a huge boost if ever we could get him through free agency!

Just have to hope we don't lose a significant piece in the process!

Also if Maxy's problems are as severe as they sound then it just makes Goldsack even more important to our future - not that he wasn't already.

Am I crazy for thinking we should consider drafting Fev as a mature-age rookie?

After Cloke and Dawes we basically have no depth for KP forwards since Jack Anthony left.

Keeffe has been played there out of necessity when he has been groomed as a KP defender. He's clearly a much better defender and still needs to learn a bit in that role before even thinking about trying him as a forward again.

If Fev was signed on a strict contract on minimum salary + incentives, then I think he could be a good fit.

You are right that we have no depth to cover for Dawes + Cloke.

The only ok options really are if we can swing Tarrant forward (which might be possible if N.Brown comes back next year) or have L.Brown playing KPF.

Looking at our VFL side I expect that we'll have Witts + Ceglar developing as our key forwards - so as to add that string to their bows before developing into ruckman. Suspect we will take a similar approach with the pair to what we have done with Keeffe - which I think is the right way to go in developing them in other positions before throwing them into the ruck.

Will be interesting to see what our solution is to looking for a depth forward. Brett Eddy is the option i've favoured for a while, but up forward with Witts + Ceglar makes us a little top heavy. Also Starcevich will be looked at through F/S - but in season 1 won't be ready.

I'm pretty tempted to make do with what we have for another year in terms of KPF stocks because we don't have the room to play them at VFL level and a depth type KPF likely won't get many opportunities to secure a position on our list at any time in the future.

Worst case scenario we have Witts running around at Full Forward as a big bodied presence. After seeing his recent VFL performances i've been very encouraged by what he has been able to dish up as a forward. Wouldn't dominate, but can bring it to ground and force double teams whenever the ball comes his way.

As for Fev. Wouldn't touch him. Ever. Form at VFL has been very disappointing. Wouldn't come close to make our best 22. But even if he had a 100+ goal season at VFL level I wouldn't touch him. Never worth adding a cancer to a premiership team. Does no one any favours.

The only critical areas age wise are Jolly and L Brown

Tarrant is older but Nathe Brown will slot back in and Davis and Johnson can be covered easily with all the kids coming through

But Jolly is 30yrs and only has Wood as a back up until Witts and Ceglar mature

and the guy backing him up in the ruck L Brown is 29.5yrs


We need another ruckman/forward

Keeffe/Ceglar look like the potential L.Brown replacements, but wouldn't be against going after a Daw/Hawkins.

With both Davis + Johnson I would look to add a high level small defender. Less needed these days with those 190cm types able to cover the smalls, but if the right player comes up in the draft, would look at that.

 

[blaze036]

on the goddard issue.. we have no chance of getting him unless pendlebury/thomas leaves.. if that happens trade the comp to saints (plus something else small? maybe) for goddard and we dont lose much and im still happy despite losing a star.

With thomas yet to resign.. and pendlebury keeping the GWS window open next year there is a real chance one will leave so thats why i believe were looking at goddard as an immediate replacement. All though with his recent dog efforts against tarrent and thomas i dunno how thrilled the playing grp would be to have him.

 

[HFF]

I do not want to see ruckmen being developed as key forwards or being branded as depth for the key forward department. Witts and Ceglar are not solutions to key forward positions for Cloke or Dawes.

IMO, we do need to get in some key forward depth. Genuine key forward prospects at that because we have the time to develop them via the VFL.

 

[blaze036]

I do not want to see ruckmen being developed as key forwards or being branded as depth for the key forward department. Witts and Ceglar are not solutions to key forward positions for Cloke or Dawes.

IMO, we do need to get in some key forward depth. Genuine key forward prospects at that because we have the time to develop them via the VFL.

this does create and issue however if we get a real talented young KPF. As an injury free cloke and dawes mean there is no spot in the team for him for like... 8 years? were not gonna be able to keep a quality young KPF for long without giving him regular games, and u cant play him dawes and cloke so it creates a real headache and perhaps left untouched and use witts/keefe/brown/tarrent in the short term if injury strikes.

 

[Knightmare]

I do not want to see ruckmen being developed as key forwards or being branded as depth for the key forward department. Witts and Ceglar are not solutions to key forward positions for Cloke or Dawes.

IMO, we do need to get in some key forward depth. Genuine key forward prospects at that because we have the time to develop them via the VFL.

With Wood playing as the no.1 ruck at VFL level that will happen anyway. Can't give everyone big ruck minutes.

Have to stick Ceglar + Witts somewhere. Might as well give them two years up forward to develop before they become the main rucks.

+ James Stewart is only another year away as a KPF prospect. Quality is on it's way.

 

[Bay Pie]

this does create and issue however if we get a real talented young KPF. As an injury free cloke and dawes mean there is no spot in the team for him for like... 8 years? were not gonna be able to keep a quality young KPF for long without giving him regular games, and u cant play him dawes and cloke so it creates a real headache and perhaps left untouched and use witts/keefe/brown/tarrent in the short term if injury strikes.

If the new young talented KPP (possibly James Stewart) shows a bit and is deemed a better KF then Dawes, Dawes plays Leroys role as Leroy will be done by then. That is a great result.

The big name player we're going for IS Goddard. Whether we get him or not is obviously another ball game. But it was confirmed to me that Goddard is definitely the player we're after. Obviously this is all in a year or so's time when Free Agency kicks in.

What worries me, is that, are we going for Goddard because we know we're losing someone else? Pendles perhaps?

He also said Maxy's problem's go beyond his thumb. Nick's knee is f**ked as well. Similar issue to Jolly with bone on bone, which would explain his form all year too. I assume he'll be operated on in the off season for the knee.

Obviously makes Goldsack unlikely to be traded, if it had been mooted.

On Goddard, obviously with free agency we wont have to cough up anything for him, so the cost there is zip. tick.

2nd part is can we afford him. In 2013, Jolly will be in his last year of his $400,000 per year 4 year deal. Didak & Swan who would have been our highest paid players are both eligible for the veterans list. I'd think Johnno & Leon are done by then possibly Taz too.

On the flip side, Travis is going to want a pay rise and deservedly so. Pendles, Reid among others will be up for new contracts.

I have much faith in what Geoff Walsh is doing. Goddard could be the back up plan if we were to lose someone. I still have a bad feeling about Pendles.

But in saying that, if he leaves as a 3-time premiership player, I'll say thanks for the 2 draft picks.

 

[HFF]

With Wood playing as the no.1 ruck at VFL level that will happen anyway. Can't give everyone big ruck minutes.

Have to stick Ceglar + Witts somewhere. Might as well give them two years up forward to develop before they become the main rucks.

+ James Stewart is only another year away as a KPF prospect. Quality is on it's way.

Of course we have to stick them somewhere but I still feel we need genuine KPP depth, not pinch hitting forwards who realistically are lumbering ruckmen. This is why our forward line in the twos is ordinary. Last season before Dawes got his go, we had genuine mobile key forwards in Dawes and Anthony. We even had an injury prone Rusling and Medhurst went alright too.

One way or another, we need to ensure we have genuine key forward depth we can develop to act as cover for Cloke and Dawes. I really hate when teams try to justify the use of ruckmen as genuine key forwards in the team. It is a massive liability if that is their permanent function.

If you are right, hopefully Stewart can come on but until then we really need to address this.

A move for Sam Reid or John Butcher should also not be ruled out and should be investigated. This is our top priority IMO as every where else on the park we have sufficient depth and are well placed.

 

[blaze036]

If the new young talented KPP (possibly James Stewart) shows a bit and is deemed a better KF then Dawes, Dawes plays Leroys role as Leroy will be done by then. That is a great result.

Has dawes ever played ruck? im pretty sure his a KPF only and u cant just chuck him in the ruck he'd be terrible and get injured. and with dawes developing as he is, it'll take an AMAZING season-2 or quiet a while for a new kid to get anywhere near to taking over his spot as the coaches really like dawes

 

[Bay Pie]

Has dawes ever played ruck? im pretty sure his a KPF only and u cant just chuck him in the ruck he'd be terrible and get injured. and with dawes developing as he is, it'll take an AMAZING season-2 or quiet a while for a new kid to get anywhere near to taking over his spot as the coaches really like dawes

Dawes has pinch hit in the ruck. I think it was the Adelaide game when we had no Leroy and no Jolly. Only Cam Wood all day.

I love what Dawes brings but what I'm getting at is we need to keep looking to improve the team. Getting a young KPP now, he'll be right to go in say 4 years, if as you said he's a real talented KPP. Dawes will be 27 by then. If we wait another 4 years to draft one, what if he's a bust?? What if Dawes or Cloke get a long term injury? You need to continually develop back up, something we've done well for a few years now.

In saying all that, I'd suspect us to take the minimum 3 players this year, with Witts a a chance as the 3rd player picked. The 2 players are just best available in a weak draft.

 

[TradeDraft]

Dawes has pinch hit in the ruck. I think it was the Adelaide game when we had no Leroy and no Jolly. Only Cam Wood all day.

I love what Dawes brings but what I'm getting at is we need to keep looking to improve the team. Getting a young KPP now, he'll be right to go in say 4 years, if as you said he's a real talented KPP. Dawes will be 27 by then. If we wait another 4 years to draft one, what if he's a bust?? What if Dawes or Cloke get a long term injury? You need to continually develop back up, something we've done well for a few years now.

In saying all that, I'd suspect us to take the minimum 3 players this year, with Witts a a chance as the 3rd player picked. The 2 players are just best available in a weak draft.

We are getting James Stewart next year who is Rate Highly then there is Darcy Moore(Peter's Son) who is suppose to be something special

 

[Scodog10]

on the goddard issue.. we have no chance of getting him unless pendlebury/thomas leaves.. if that happens trade the comp to saints (plus something else small? maybe) for goddard and we dont lose much and im still happy despite losing a star.

With the introduction of free agency coming in 2012 (the same season Goddard comes off contract) pretty much everything above is redundant.

It all comes down to money and Goddard would be made well aware that he would be underpaid at Collingwood. If he decided to come to the club we'd be getting him at an absolute bargain basement price, which even though I'd be happy for it to go through, I personally find hard to believe.

 

[blaze036]

yea correct we needa have backups for each areas, now isnt the time to get the dawes/cloke replacement however imo. maybe look for the best in the superdraft, if not then go focus on it in 2013-2014, at least by then the (hopefully) young star can see light at the end of the tunnel aka dawes/cloke retirement and get into the team when his starting to hit his physical peak.

 

[Knightmare]

Dawes is still best as a forward. Best as a big forward presence who helps make Cloke better. Have in the past toyed with the idea of Dawes as a no.2 ruckman, but definitely view him as a better key forward.

The interesting thing with Stewart is that he is a KPF/wing. Has a very good skill set for someone at his height and is a reasonably high level athlete. Right now still pretty skinny - so will take the usual 3-4 years till he gets any games - think Ben Reid when he first joined the club physically.

Think eventually he will replace Cloke at CHF. But long way off yet. In that 3rd/4th year at the club when still playing with Cloke + Dawes could pretty easily play on a HFF I'd think until one or the other retires.

 

[TradeDraft]

Dawes is still best as a forward. Best as a big forward presence who helps make Cloke better. Have in the past toyed with the idea of Dawes as a no.2 ruckman, but definitely view him as a better key forward.

The interesting thing with Stewart is that he is a KPF/wing. Has a very good skill set for someone at his height and is a reasonably high level athlete. Right now still pretty skinny - so will take the usual 3-4 years till he gets any games - think Ben Reid when he first joined the club physically.

Think eventually he will replace Cloke at CHF. But long way off yet. In that 3rd/4th year at the club when still playing with Cloke + Dawes could pretty easily play on a HFF I'd think until one or the other retires.

Stewart sound a Bit Like Watts From Melbourne

 

[Old Spice]

Obviously makes Goldsack unlikely to be traded, if it had been mooted.

2nd part is can we afford him. In 2013, Jolly will be in his last year of his $400,000 per year 4 year deal. Didak & Swan who would have been our highest paid players are both eligible for the veterans list. I'd think Johnno & Leon are done by then possibly Taz too.

On the flip side, Travis is going to want a pay rise and deservedly so. Pendles, Reid among others will be up for new contracts.

I have much faith in what Geoff Walsh is doing. Goddard could be the back up plan if we were to lose someone. I still have a bad feeling about Pendles.

But in saying that, if he leaves as a 3-time premiership player, I'll say thanks for the 2 draft picks.

For the reasons you mention, I can see a bit of room being freed up for Goddard, albeit not on top top $. My feeling is that he really wants to play in a genuine premiership outfit to nab a flag and that will temper his wage demands accordingly.

We know we had a mill freed up this year post retirements of Medders, Lockyer, O'Bree, Presti and Rus. Ball's 2012 contract will be substantially smaller, and as you say we're wearing a lot of wage on vets for Dids and Swan too. Add in possible retirements of Leon and BJ and we're looking at another mil at least in the piggy bank.

Over two mil in two years would give us enough to give, say, an extra 100k p.a. to five solid players and Trav, 150k to Beams, Sidebottom, Daisy, Pendles, 200k to Dawes, Reid etc and still have some doughage left over. And as you say, Jolly's contract post 4 years will be diminshed. Don't know why we couldn't offer someone like Goddard some back-ended action, especially if we shear off another 250k p.a. player in a deal to get him.

On Pendles, I don't quite know what the story is there, but for someone who is mooted as the captain in waiting, you want a Maxy style 'extended my contract' as an example and want you to do the same. I understand his value and all that but really I was hoping for some more throughgoing committment.

 

[Dundalis]

For the reasons you mention, I can see a bit of room being freed up for Goddard, albeit not on top top $. My feeling is that he really wants to play in a genuine premiership outfit to nab a flag and that will temper his wage demands accordingly.

We know we had a mill freed up this year post retirements of Medders, Lockyer, O'Bree, Presti and Rus. Ball's 2012 contract will be substantially smaller, and as you say we're wearing a lot of wage on vets for Dids and Swan too. Add in possible retirements of Leon and BJ and we're looking at another mil at least in the piggy bank.

Over two mil in two years would give us enough to give, say, an extra 100k p.a. to five solid players and Trav, 150k to Beams, Sidebottom, Daisy, Pendles, 200k to Dawes, Reid etc and still have some doughage left over. And as you say, Jolly's contract post 4 years will be diminshed. Don't know why we couldn't offer someone like Goddard some back-ended action, especially if we shear off another 250k p.a. player in a deal to get him.

On Pendles, I don't quite know what the story is there, but for someone who is mooted as the captain in waiting, you want a Maxy style 'extended my contract' as an example and want you to do the same. I understand his value and all that but really I was hoping for some more throughgoing committment.

I thought Pendles made it pretty clear the reason he only extended a year. He's waiting for the new CBA and potentially increased salary cap. I'm surprised most players aren't holding off for this to be revealed.

 

[Old Spice]

I thought Pendles made it pretty clear the reason he only extended a year. He's waiting for the new CBA and potentially increased salary cap. I'm surprised most players aren't holding off for this to be revealed.

How much more will the new CBA and cap be? I wouldn't expect a great deal more.