Collingwood's defence

[sharpie]

Had a question for maggies fans about the collingwood defence.

Last year I watched spellbound as a group of kids formed a formiddable defence and thought i was watching re-runs of my mob from the early 90's.

I really thought that the magpie defence was going to become the best in the comp - but there has been a real stagnation this year from last.

Any thoughts on why this might be? I still think they'll be a great defence - especially with the form Brown showed early on - but I was surprised that they have stagnated a bit this year and not improved as I thought they would.

 

[frantelle]

we are still lacking another key position backmen
brown isnt top flight yet
and wakelin/presti will more then likely be gone years end
whilst o'brien/maxwell and co need to play roles that they probably arent best at (eg taking a powerhouse forward when someone like maxwell is brilliant at leaving the third tall and destroying the ball)
also we seem to be lacking 1/2 genuine small rebounding defenders
if shaw is tagged (impossible to beat a tag on a defender) we quickly run out of options and the ball usually has to go through someone like wakelin when instead it should be carried at speed and delivered pin point up the field

IMO JA will go back there once the likes of reid/rusling/dawes possibly rocca are ready
if JA is as good at defence as he is at scoring end of the ground it could just about fill all of our gaps

 

[Frederlick]

Presti busted and Clement gone, nothing more to say, this year they are a group of kids, bar Wakelin.

 

[Krueger]

In short our defence it shit. With Clement gone we dont seem to set up attacks nearly aswell coming from the back half.

 

[PieLebo87]

I agree with you there Sharpie. The Magpie defence as really just taken a step backwards this season.

Major contributor to this is the damage to their mental security of having loss the best versatile defender in the game in James Clement, even though he was missing for chunks of last season, he was still there for the guys, and came back in later on in the season.

This season, the load is being thrown straight onto the younger shoulders of defenders that should really be developing as 2nd or 3rd tall backmen, but are finding themselves going up against quality opposition week in, week out. As we know about youngsters, consistency is a major issue, and that seems to be the case where one week the defence holds up very well against quality opposition and then the following week gives away a bit too much.

Regarding some names, Harry O'Brien is in career best form right about now, and today was no exception, keeping Scott Lucas to 2 possessions all day, even aggravating him and getting him reported. His rebound out of defence has really been exciting and make the transition from the Clement-era that bit easier, plus he can play on both smalls like Farmer, mids like Stevie J and talls like Lucas, and has a good record against a few, including Rewieldt.

Nathan Brown is really just playing 2nd fiddle to Shane Wakelin, and we're struggling to find him a match up, and when Wakelin struggles against particular forwards, Browny finds himself placed on a guy who is at top form and very confident with a bag of goals already to their name. He has done a good job on a few big names, as already noted.

Simon Prestigiacomo is coming back from injury and should feature in a few weeks, the sooner the better, as his experience and ability to shut down forwards is that little bit better than Shane Wakelin's and he has been out for so long that Pie fans have underestimated his contribution to the team. This is the same Presti that was touted as one of the best FBs in the league 3-4 years back, and the same one that Jonathon Brown named as his hardest opposition.

Heath Shaw is recieving a bit more attention and is struggling with being tagged out of games, and this is where Malthouse needs to do something about it and move him into the midfield or even up forward because for his size, Shaw is one of the best one-on-one players in the competition.

The likes of Maxwell, Goldsack and Johnson are struggling for form, and need to pull their fingers out or they'll find themselves in the VFL, as we have plenty of quality young defenders that are knocking at the chance to have a go at AFL football.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Maxwell, Goldsack and Johnson are struggling for form, and need to pull their fingers out or they'll find themselves in the VFL, as we have plenty of quality young defenders that are knocking at the chance to have a go at AFL football.[/quote]

Plenty of quality young defenders?! Who?

 

[PieLebo87]

Plenty of quality young defenders?! Who?

Cox is doing alright in the VFL.
Goldsack had a decent 2nd half in the VFL.
Egan, believe it or not, has not been that bad in the VFL, decent run for the Pies across HB + could release Shaw.
Iles is rackig up the possessions.
McCarthy keeps impressing, might be a 1st year player, but that shouldnt stop him.
Lonie has been in the best 2 weeks in a row, since returning from injury.
Finally, Dawes and MacCaffer are killing it in the forward line, and deserve opportunities, thus giving Anthony his go in the backline.

I cannot figure out why we can't seem to contain small forwards/speedy type mids when we have plenty of smalls doing alright in our VFL side.

 

[shawthing09]

Cox is doing alright in the VFL.
Goldsack had a decent 2nd half in the VFL.
Egan, believe it or not, has not been that bad in the VFL, decent run for the Pies across HB + could release Shaw.
Iles is rackig up the possessions.
McCarthy keeps impressing, might be a 1st year player, but that shouldnt stop him.
Lonie has been in the best 2 weeks in a row, since returning from injury.
Finally, Dawes and MacCaffer are killing it in the forward line, and deserve opportunities, thus giving Anthony his go in the backline.

I cannot figure out why we can't seem to contain small forwards/speedy type mids when we have plenty of smalls doing alright in our VFL side.

You said young defenders. Beside Goldsack none of them are defenders or even close. If Cox, Egan or Iles had to defend at AFL level i would hate to see the results. Iles as his a midget and would give up to much height even to the small fowards. Cox and Egan are the two least accountable players on an AFL list at the moment. McCarthy is a mid Maccaffer and Dawes are fowards. Lonie is not young??????

IMO Goldsack's limitations at AFL level will be clear not polished enough for the midfield, too skiny and not strong enough for most fowards.

Our defence in terms of young depth is not great.

 

[PieLebo87]

You said young defenders. Beside Goldsack none of them are defenders or even close. If Cox, Egan or Iles had to defend at AFL level i would hate to see the results. Iles as his a midget and would give up to much height even to the small fowards. Cox and Egan are the two least accountable players on an AFL list at the moment. McCarthy is a mid Maccaffer and Dawes are fowards. Lonie is not young??????

IMO Goldsack's limitations at AFL level will be clear not polished enough for the midfield, too skiny and not strong enough for most fowards.

Our defence in terms of young depth is not great.

You're just being an absolute tool, mate. Cox isn't a defender? Iles hasn't played in the back pocket? Egan wasn't training all pre-season (and being hyped up) as a quality HBF?

I think if we had players like Cox or Iles in our AFL side, there wouldn't be a Reimer or Thomas killing us with their pace. So pull your head out of it and stop bagging for the sake of bagging.

How tall is Iles? If you know he is a midget?

How old is old for you? So Iles, Cox and Egan are old?

So if McCarthy came into our AFL side, he'd be thrown straight into the midfield? Or into the backline to be groomed like most other midfielders in the history of the game?

I stated that Dawes and MacCaffer would replace Anthony in the forward line so he can go down back. Or you can't read?

Again, I don't know why I even bothered replying to you, because its obvious you're just some bandwagon supporter who finds it easier to bag out the players of the club you 'support' when we're down.

I assume if we win Friday night, you'll be talking us up?

 

[Dundalis]

You're just being an absolute tool, mate. Cox isn't a defender? Iles hasn't played in the back pocket? Egan wasn't training all pre-season (and being hyped up) as a quality HBF?

I think if we had players like Cox or Iles in our AFL side, there wouldn't be a Reimer or Thomas killing us with their pace. So pull your head out of it and stop bagging for the sake of bagging.

How tall is Iles? If you know he is a midget?

How old is old for you? So Iles, Cox and Egan are old?

So if McCarthy came into our AFL side, he'd be thrown straight into the midfield? Or into the backline to be groomed like most other midfielders in the history of the game?

I stated that Dawes and MacCaffer would replace Anthony in the forward line so he can go down back. Or you can't read?

Again, I don't know why I even bothered replying to you, because its obvious you're just some bandwagon supporter who finds it easier to bag out the players of the club you 'support' when we're down.

I assume if we win Friday night, you'll be talking us up?

I presume what he means is that Cox and Egan are about as accountable as a common thief, and Iles is a passing (barely) moderately talented player that looks good at VFL level, but probably isn't quite AFL standard.

What we need are tall key defenders, and quality small rebounding defenders that can actually defend. Currently we have one of each that are going to be around for more than 5 years. Brown and Shaw. Goldsack doesn't fall into either and is a 'tweener that should be a good player with more experience, but will never be a 'key' player down back like Brown or Shaw are/will become. He'll be a third defender at best which are a dime a dozen, especially at our club. Shaw gets too easily taken out of the game and our attacking game from half back with him with no one to help take up the slack and Wakelin and Presti don't have much longer left in the game.

Other clubs have a multitude of players that get possession figures in the high teens early twenties in that rebounding half back role. We have one. Marty Clarke is playing more and more in the midfield, as required given how it's going. Guys like Wakes, Brown, Maxwell and O'Brien simply don't do enough to help with the rebound.

Anthony is one that could be talented enough ala Clement to fill both roles mentioned without necessarily fitting one mould, but that is yet to be determined. So there is a bit of an issue defensively and we should look to draft a defender in the coming draft, either a key tall or small rebounding defender (no third tall type) but first priority is obviously midfield. McCarthy should have no issue jumping straight into our midfield if he's good enough given it's current state, and I'd expect him to directly replace one of our mids if picked.

Our forward line has no issues at present IMO in terms of the short and long term future. Quality small forwards in abundance with a lot of years left, one quality tall, with a couple youngsters that could very well be good enough to compliment him (Dawes, Anthony, Rusling and McCaffer). Rocca is also not out of the picture yet. The only reason I leave Reid out is because of my own personal doubts about him making the grade but you can add him too.

If I had to rank each area in terms of both current ability and future potential, I'd give defence a 7, midfield a 6 and forward line an 8.5 with potential for a 9 if say Dawes shows he belongs at AFL level when he gets his chance with perhaps potential of being a star down the line. I've got a lot of hope for the likes of Wellingham, McCarthy and even Dyas whom is injured atm in terms of the future of our midfield, otherwise I'd give them no more than a 5-5.5.

I suppose we could also draft a ruckman, but I believe Keefe is being developed for that, and I think maybe getting another one in the rookie draft should be good enough for the time being as Wood should continue to improve and Bryan is playing far better than I ever believed he could.

 

[sharpie]

I agree with you there Sharpie. The Magpie defence as really just taken a step backwards this season.

Major contributor to this is the damage to their mental security of having loss the best versatile defender in the game in James Clement, even though he was missing for chunks of last season, he was still there for the guys, and came back in later on in the season.

This season, the load is being thrown straight onto the younger shoulders of defenders that should really be developing as 2nd or 3rd tall backmen, but are finding themselves going up against quality opposition week in, week out. As we know about youngsters, consistency is a major issue, and that seems to be the case where one week the defence holds up very well against quality opposition and then the following week gives away a bit too much.

Regarding some names, Harry O'Brien is in career best form right about now, and today was no exception, keeping Scott Lucas to 2 possessions all day, even aggravating him and getting him reported. His rebound out of defence has really been exciting and make the transition from the Clement-era that bit easier, plus he can play on both smalls like Farmer, mids like Stevie J and talls like Lucas, and has a good record against a few, including Rewieldt.

Nathan Brown is really just playing 2nd fiddle to Shane Wakelin, and we're struggling to find him a match up, and when Wakelin struggles against particular forwards, Browny finds himself placed on a guy who is at top form and very confident with a bag of goals already to their name. He has done a good job on a few big names, as already noted.

Simon Prestigiacomo is coming back from injury and should feature in a few weeks, the sooner the better, as his experience and ability to shut down forwards is that little bit better than Shane Wakelin's and he has been out for so long that Pie fans have underestimated his contribution to the team. This is the same Presti that was touted as one of the best FBs in the league 3-4 years back, and the same one that Jonathon Brown named as his hardest opposition.

Heath Shaw is recieving a bit more attention and is struggling with being tagged out of games, and this is where Malthouse needs to do something about it and move him into the midfield or even up forward because for his size, Shaw is one of the best one-on-one players in the competition.

The likes of Maxwell, Goldsack and Johnson are struggling for form, and need to pull their fingers out or they'll find themselves in the VFL, ae have plenty of quality young defenders that are knocking at the chance to have a go at AFL football.

It must be confidence I reckon.

I agree with O'brien's form - however I am staggered at Goldsack going backwards - I was ready to hail him the next Guy Mckenna at the end of last year - which is no small complement from an eagles fan.

Whilst Clement is a massive loss, the pies young defenders played really well last year when he wasn't in the team! A bit like our midfield I guess. We were still a force to be reckoned with last year even with Cousins and Judd missing. Yet this year we have fallen in a heap.

Regardless, I think they'll stand up nextyear

 

[PieLebo87]

It must be confidence I reckon.

I agree with O'brien's form - however I am staggered at Goldsack going backwards - I was ready to hail him the next Guy Mckenna at the end of last year - which is no small complement from an eagles fan.

Whilst Clement is a massive loss, the pies young defenders played really well last year when he wasn't in the team! A bit like our midfield I guess. We were still a force to be reckoned with last year even with Cousins and Judd missing. Yet this year we have fallen in a heap.

Regardless, I think they'll stand up nextyear

It would definitely be a confidence thing with the majority of them because they are still kids.

As for Goldsack, have some faith, he may still develop into the player we saw he was capable of last season. He had an injury interupted pre-season, which obviously isn't an excuse, and he might just be having the 2nd year blues. I just can't see someone having the impact he did in their 1st season then just falling away. I believe he will be back. He has all the right attributes for league footy.

I also agree with you about the Clement/WCE midfield thing. Its the security of having those stars at your club which drives you to cement your spot. I think they've just become a bit complacent, which is a shame.

 

[shawthing09]

It would definitely be a confidence thing with the majority of them because they are still kids.

As for Goldsack, have some faith, he may still develop into the player we saw he was capable of last season. He had an injury interupted pre-season, which obviously isn't an excuse, and he might just be having the 2nd year blues. I just can't see someone having the impact he did in their 1st season then just falling away. I believe he will be back. He has all the right attributes for league footy.

I also agree with you about the Clement/WCE midfield thing. Its the security of having those stars at your club which drives you to cement your spot. I think they've just become a bit complacent, which is a shame.

I am being realistic. Egan and Cox play in defence as running rebounding defenders. Have no accountablity and very poor ability in contested situations and would be murdered by decent fowards. Iles gives up far to much height on most fowards.

The players you mention would all be playing backline as rebounding half backs. Playing on poor fowards. Defenders should be able to stop good fowards. You are talking about players as defenders who simply wouldn't be much chop at defending. Iles and McCarthy have the ability to make it as mids. Cox IMO at AFL level would need to play a Goodes role because he can't win a one on one contest and pays no mind to his direct opponent and the same goes for Egan.

I am deffiantly not a bandwagon supporter I am just being realistic and pointing out the players your mentioning as great white hopes for the defensive unit aren't.

They are young and some are talented I'd agree but defenders they are not. Sitting in the backline and running out of the half backline is not defending.

 

[PieLebo87]

I am being realistic. Egan and Cox play in defence as running rebounding defenders. Have no accountablity and very poor ability in contested situations and would be murdered by decent fowards. Iles gives up far to much height on most fowards.

The players you mention would all be playing backline as rebounding half backs. Playing on poor fowards. Defenders should be able to stop good fowards. You are talking about players as defenders who simply wouldn't be much chop at defending. Iles and McCarthy have the ability to make it as mids. Cox IMO at AFL level would need to play a Goodes role because he can't win a one on one contest and pays no mind to his direct opponent and the same goes for Egan.

I am deffiantly not a bandwagon supporter I am just being realistic and pointing out the players your mentioning as great white hopes for the defensive unit aren't.

They are young and some are talented I'd agree but defenders they are not. Sitting in the backline and running out of the half backline is not defending.

shawthing, I know you're smart enough to realise that a defence does not consist of 6 negating defenders. You'd realise that right now, Collingwood is actually struggling through the midfield because of our LACK OF rebunding defenders which create that run through the midfield.

As for the requirement of rebounding defenders, why else do you think Ryan Lonie was called up this week? Watch how he plays against the Hawks. Every AFL team needs these sorts of defenders.

You keep saying Iles gives up too much height, do you actually know how tall he is? He is a 185cm, 83kg footballer. You must be thinking of someone else. I still remember him playing on Milne last year or this year and having one of his best games for the club.

McCarthy can't slot straight into the midfield, he will need to do his time in the backline as Malthouse tends to do. I'm actually just as excited to see him in the backline as I am in the midfield because he seems like such a reliable footballer.

You mention that we need defenders that will negate forwards, we already have them. We've got Brown, O'Brien and the old-heads of Presti and Wakelin. There have been quite a few decent scalps from these 4 players. Unfufilled potential in Thoolen and Casey-Leigh in the reserves too, but they aren't required because we've got plenty of depth.

You are being realistic shawy, but have some faith brother.

 

[shawthing09]

I do see what your saying, My view is just that atm the balance in our defence is terrible. Besides Harry O most of our defenders are being beaten one on one. We can never find the right match ups to stop the top line fowards and we do not flood. So with all this in mind we can't afford to have a player who plays with 0 accountability in defence. I.E as long as malthouse takes the Man on Man at all costs stance we can't afford to play some one in defence who purely and simply pays no mind to it.

As for Iles i acutally thought he was much shorter then that.

I actually do have faith in our defence but much more because it is in the hands of Harry O, Browny and Heath then anyone else

 

[Jabso]

The simple answer is Clement has gone, Presti despite being injured last year a bit too is very reliable and never gets thrashed, Goldack has gone backwards a lot as has Maxwell which in turn has placed a lot of pressure on H.Shaw. Instead of trying to play through H.Shaw's opponent they try to take his opponent away from the ball more.

Brown is very promising but is just a kid and sometimes is out of his depth and O'Brien has been brilliant this year.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I think he makes a fair point.

Cox plays defence but his defensive skills are poor
Goldsack fair enough
Egan wing/HFF
Iles midfielder
McCarthy midfielder
Lonie not young