Opinion Combined team- Lions 01-04, Cats 07-11, Hawks 12-15, Tigers 17-20.

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AndyD

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Lucky to get within 10 goals? How do you explain that Richmond regularly beat Hawthorn during their premiership years when we had Tyrone Vickery as our main forward and a stop-start game style?

Which of the Richmond players have 'very little skill'? Can you name five?



I think you'd struggle to find one Hawthorn supporter to agree with you that Shane Crawford is a superior finals player than Dustin Martin, with all due respect to Crawford.



Okay so you're clearly taking the p155 and/or have no idea of how football works
Considering Hawthorn finished 15th this year and beat you pretty easily I’m not sure Hawthorn is the team you want to really be compared to. Of those 3 teams the Hawks were probably the weakest (and any dynasty really should be compared to Hawthorn of the 80’s to really measure up to an all time great team) with the Lions the strongest IMO.

The relative lack of finals appearances (compared to the periods both immediately before and after his career) for Crawford shows how foolish it is to base opinions on players solely on finals appearances. But regardless of that, my point with Crawford wasn’t to include him based on his finals performances, but that if the criteria is extended to include the players in the Hawthorn 08 team, his career stacks up as well as anybody else’s in those teams

It’s probably harder to name more than 5 current Richmond players who have what I consider above replacement level skill. Martin, Cotchin, Reiwdolt, Lynch and in time Rioli. The rest would all be replaceable skills wise, and have only achieved what they have thru discipline in their adherence to the game plan and hard work. Once again that’s not said to diminish their achievements or as if they are any less worthy winners of those particular seasons because if it. But you’re not going to convince me there is going to be a massive drop off in talent if you replaced Richmonds 3rd/4th best midfielders with North’s. By comparison, there is nobody from the Freo midfield in 01 (or Carlton in 02 or us in 03) that would come close to being able to push out someone from the Brisbane midfields of the same year.

Having seen my coach consistently use regular mids as rucks I only 1/2 take the piss suggesting he could hold out someone like Ottens/Hale out of the squad as he is clearly more talented as a footballer than those two. Looking back over the rest of the players named, the only other ones I’d say after reconsidering he was more talented than is Gunston and possibly the Scott’s, but even then I’d still back them to win their fair share of contests against him. But the KPD’s named would all nullify him as a forward, he is not a good enough forward to keep out the KPF’s, and wouldn’t be able to hold out any of the 3 Brisbane HoF’ers in the midfield without worrying about Hodge, Ablett, Selwood, Bartel etc


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AndyD

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Come one mate.

Three Norm Smiths. OK probably shouldn't have got he first one, but the third one was one of the great GF performances. I'd have him HFF.
That just speaks to the relative lack of quality Grand Finals we’ve had this decade. I don’t imagine our win would’ve been overly attractive to people not invested in the game, with Picken, Boyd, Kennedy and maybe Buddy standing out more.

The 97 Grand Final alone probably had 4/5 better individual performances. Either Aussie Jones or Robert Harvey would’ve won it if Darren Jarman didn’t win it for Adelaide by kicking 5 in the last quarter, or Shane Ellen not kicking 5 out of nowhere. That’s without even worrying about the actual winner of the Norm Smith on the day, who backed it up by winning another one the next year. But speaking just for games I’ve seen, Ablett in 89, Matera in 92, any of the 97 players, Pickett (and Wanganeen 2nd 1/2) in 04 and Goddard in the drawn 10 grand final were all just as dominant (and 92, 97 and 04 all coming in breakthrough years for those respective clubs) if not better, than any of Martin’s GF performances.


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Hot Diggity

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Can't agree with you on a number of your points. To call out one, I disagree that we only have 1 (possibly 2) standout players.

Players such as:
Martin
Edwards
Lynch
Riewoldt
Cotchin
Houli
Grimes
Bolton
Vlaustin
Short

are the best (or thereabouts) for their spot. Some of them would be standouts in other teams eg Edwards
Martin is just about the first picked! Play him either mid or forward.

Houli sadly can't edge out Hodge and Enright. Hodge was bank flank for the majority of our Threepeat.

Edwards one of the most underrated players in the AFL.

T Lynch a definite no. Riewoldt unlucky.

Cotchin is beaten by some ridiculous midfield talent.

The others in the pot with all the other maybes/not quites.
 

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Hot Diggity

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1603712259483.png


Correct. 1982-1991:

5 flags
3 R/U
1 Prelim

1 x B2B
2 x record margins in GF
Lose our greatest player end of 85 and then win 3 of the next 4.
Greatest spine in history
 

The Passenger

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I know this will be pretty divisive particularly since as a Lions supporter I have selected more Lions players in the side than the other 3 sides, I do however think that the Lions of that era were stacked with more elite individual talent than the other 3 sides, the merit of each side as a collective is for another thread.

Criteria- Must have played in at least 3 flags(some Hawks have won 4) which leaves out the likes of Gary Ablett and Lance Franklin.

Dylan Grimes, Matthew Scarlett, Chris Johnson.
Luke Hodge, Justin Leppitsch, Corey Enright.

David Hale, Michael Voss, Sam Mitchell.
Simon Black, Trent Cotchin, Shane Edwards.

Jonathan Brown, Jack Reiwoldt, Dustin Martin.
Cyril Rioli, Alistair Lynch, Luke Breust.

Joel Selwood, Shaun Burgoyne, Nigel Lappin, Jason Akermanis.
_____________________________________________________________________

Unlucky- Brad Ottens, Toby Nankervis, Clark Keating, Bachar Houli, Jimmy Bartel, Steve Johnson, Paul Chapman, Darryl White, Nick Vlastuin, Brian Lake, Grant Birchall.

I found it hardest to select the ruckman and to leave out Houli, Birchall and Bartel, tossed up Edwards or Bartel and Johnson or Houli/Birchall.

There are 59 players to select from, the Lions have 16 3 time flag winners, Cats 12, Hawks 17 and Tigers have 14.
My changes
In - Roughead, Chapman, Johnson, Bartel, Keating, Birchall
Out - Riewoldt, Brown*, Breust, Edwards, Hale, Grimes

* At the end of 2003 Brown was not yet the dominant force he came to be

Birchall - Scarlett - C Johnson
Hodge - Leppitsch - Enright
Keating - Voss - Mitchell
Black - Cotchin - Bartel
Chapman - Roughead/Franklin - Martin
Rioli - Lynch - S Johnson
Selwood - Burgoyne/Ablett - Lappin - Akermanis

If we can reduce 3 flag rule to 2 flags then Franklin comes in for the newly promoted Roughead, and Ablett comes in for Burgoyne.

Somewhat undersized team (one ruckman only and no third tall forward option), but the main driving force of these teams was high powered midfielders, most of whom who could get forward and kick goals when required. Voss, Akermanis, Chapman, Johnson (more forward than mid), Ablett, Rioli and Martin all go at a goal a game or close enough to it.

Interesting exercise.
 

Elton Johns Wig

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B: Chris Johnson - Matthew Scarlett - Dylan Grimes
HB: Luke Hodge - Justin Leppistch - Corey Enright
C: Jason Akermanis - Michael Voss - Jimmy Bartel
HF: Dustin Martin - Jarryd Roughead - Steve Johnson
F: Cyril Rioli - Jack Riewoldt - Paul Chapman
R: Brad Ottens - Sam Mitchell - Joel Selwood
I: Shaun Burgoyne - Nigel Lappin - Jonathan Brown - Simon Black
This is a really solid effort.

Understand your bias having Selwood starting and Black bench. I'd flip those, but this is a really good side.
 

Choogler

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Interesting thread. Without looking at who each of the players are just going off your team and list of omissions I’d probably have Ottens and Bartel in for Hale and Sheds.
Always reckon that Keating was the one who set the tone for the Lions and Ottens for the Cats. Either before Hale because both were dominant and putting in GFs.
 

Craze

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Considering Hawthorn finished 15th this year and beat you pretty easily I’m not sure Hawthorn is the team you want to really be compared to. Of those 3 teams the Hawks were probably the weakest (and any dynasty really should be compared to Hawthorn of the 80’s to really measure up to an all time great team) with the Lions the strongest IMO.

The relative lack of finals appearances (compared to the periods both immediately before and after his career) for Crawford shows how foolish it is to base opinions on players solely on finals appearances. But regardless of that, my point with Crawford wasn’t to include him based on his finals performances, but that if the criteria is extended to include the players in the Hawthorn 08 team, his career stacks up as well as anybody else’s in those teams

It’s probably harder to name more than 5 current Richmond players who have what I consider above replacement level skill. Martin, Cotchin, Reiwdolt, Lynch and in time Rioli. The rest would all be replaceable skills wise, and have only achieved what they have thru discipline in their adherence to the game plan and hard work. Once again that’s not said to diminish their achievements or as if they are any less worthy winners of those particular seasons because if it. But you’re not going to convince me there is going to be a massive drop off in talent if you replaced Richmonds 3rd/4th best midfielders with North’s. By comparison, there is nobody from the Freo midfield in 01 (or Carlton in 02 or us in 03) that would come close to being able to push out someone from the Brisbane midfields of the same year.

Having seen my coach consistently use regular mids as rucks I only 1/2 take the piss suggesting he could hold out someone like Ottens/Hale out of the squad as he is clearly more talented as a footballer than those two. Looking back over the rest of the players named, the only other ones I’d say after reconsidering he was more talented than is Gunston and possibly the Scott’s, but even then I’d still back them to win their fair share of contests against him. But the KPD’s named would all nullify him as a forward, he is not a good enough forward to keep out the KPF’s, and wouldn’t be able to hold out any of the 3 Brisbane HoF’ers in the midfield without worrying about Hodge, Ablett, Selwood, Bartel etc


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Mate you've got NFI
 

HairyO

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Gibson 2 x B&F in Premiership years. Wonder if he gets the nod ahead of Burgoyne. Hodge is obvious. And Captain too.

Gunston is a machine in Finals. Absolutely needs to be in.

Bartel or Chapman have to be there. Breust or Johnson is a tough one.

Then try and find space for Aker Black Voss.

No wonder the AA go for 12 mids and a few tall blokes.
 

WillHayward

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I know this will be pretty divisive particularly since as a Lions supporter I have selected more Lions players in the side than the other 3 sides, I do however think that the Lions of that era were stacked with more elite individual talent than the other 3 sides, the merit of each side as a collective is for another thread.

Criteria- Must have played in at least 3 flags(some Hawks have won 4) which leaves out the likes of Gary Ablett and Lance Franklin.

Dylan Grimes, Matthew Scarlett, Chris Johnson.
Luke Hodge, Justin Leppitsch, Corey Enright.

David Hale, Michael Voss, Sam Mitchell.
Simon Black, Trent Cotchin, Shane Edwards.

Jonathan Brown, Jack Reiwoldt, Dustin Martin.
Cyril Rioli, Alistair Lynch, Luke Breust.

Joel Selwood, Shaun Burgoyne, Nigel Lappin, Jason Akermanis.
_____________________________________________________________________

Unlucky- Brad Ottens, Toby Nankervis, Clark Keating, Bachar Houli, Jimmy Bartel, Steve Johnson, Paul Chapman, Darryl White, Nick Vlastuin, Brian Lake, Grant Birchall.

I found it hardest to select the ruckman and to leave out Houli, Birchall and Bartel, tossed up Edwards or Bartel and Johnson or Houli/Birchall.

There are 59 players to select from, the Lions have 16 3 time flag winners, Cats 12, Hawks 17 and Tigers have 14.
Bartel has to come in but good job apart from that.
Aker > Cyril.
 

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HairyO

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Interesting that none of these teams had a gun ruckman
They may not have been guns but they were all handy. Hale and McEvoy were both vital because they could play forward too. Though only Hale counts here.

Keating was great. Lots of injuries but always stepped up in finals. Ottens was solid too. Always liked to go forward and kick goals.
 

nineteen eighty

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Martin is just about the first picked! Play him either mid or forward.

Houli sadly can't edge out Hodge and Enright. Hodge was bank flank for the majority of our Threepeat.

Edwards one of the most underrated players in the AFL.

T Lynch a definite no. Riewoldt unlucky.

Cotchin is beaten by some ridiculous midfield talent.

The others in the pot with all the other maybes/not quites.
No disagreement. My post was actually in reference to the blokes statement that we had little talent. Ludicrous statement to make.
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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I know this will be pretty divisive particularly since as a Lions supporter I have selected more Lions players in the side than the other 3 sides, I do however think that the Lions of that era were stacked with more elite individual talent than the other 3 sides, the merit of each side as a collective is for another thread.

Criteria- Must have played in at least 3 flags(some Hawks have won 4) which leaves out the likes of Gary Ablett and Lance Franklin.

Dylan Grimes, Matthew Scarlett, Chris Johnson.
Luke Hodge, Justin Leppitsch, Corey Enright.

David Hale, Michael Voss, Sam Mitchell.
Simon Black, Trent Cotchin, Shane Edwards.

Jonathan Brown, Jack Reiwoldt, Dustin Martin.
Cyril Rioli, Alistair Lynch, Luke Breust.

Joel Selwood, Shaun Burgoyne, Nigel Lappin, Jason Akermanis.
_____________________________________________________________________

Unlucky- Brad Ottens, Toby Nankervis, Clark Keating, Bachar Houli, Jimmy Bartel, Steve Johnson, Paul Chapman, Darryl White, Nick Vlastuin, Brian Lake, Grant Birchall.

I found it hardest to select the ruckman and to leave out Houli, Birchall and Bartel, tossed up Edwards or Bartel and Johnson or Houli/Birchall.

There are 59 players to select from, the Lions have 16 3 time flag winners, Cats 12, Hawks 17 and Tigers have 14.

Matthew Scarlett Brian Lake Chris Johnson
Luke Hodge Dylan Grimes Corey Enright
Jason Akermanis Sam Mitchell Simon Black
Steve Johnson Jack Riewoldt Dustin Martin
Paul Chapman Alastair Lynch Cyril Rioli

Brad Ottens Michael Voss Trent Cotchin

Jimmy Bartel Toby Nankervis Jack Gunston Shane Edwards

Captain : Voss
Vice Captains : Hodge and Cotchin
Coach : Clarkson
 
Last edited:

Herne Hill Hammer

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Depends what you're picking them on.

if you're picking them on actual grand final performances, Paul Chapman should be the first Cats player picked.
Chapman, Scarlett and Johnson.
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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Taggers are out of fashion, but interesting that there is no mention so far of Cameron Ling.

Sure, not in the upper echelon of the "great" players, but as someone effective at a specific role, a pretty useful inclusion.
Playing Hawthorn, Ling would almost be my first picked, he always did a job on either Hodge or Mitchell, just needed two of him because the one he wasn't on usually got off the chain, but he doesn't make it into this all star side.
 

Sirlemsip

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FB: Matthew Scarlett, Brian Lake, Chris Johnson
HB: Luke Hodge, Justin Leppitsch, Corey Enright
C: Jason Akermanis, Sam Mitchell, Jimmy Bartel
HF: Steve Johnson, Jarryd Roughead, Dustin Martin
FF: Paul Chapman, Alastair Lynch, Cyril Rioli
R: Brad Ottens, Michael Voss, Simon Black

Joel Selwood Nigel Lappin Shaun Burgoyne Jack Gunston

Captain: Hodge
Vice Captains: Voss/Selwood
Coach: Clarko

Wow. That was a tough exercise...
 

BarryMorgan

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I know this will be pretty divisive particularly since as a Lions supporter I have selected more Lions players in the side than the other 3 sides, I do however think that the Lions of that era were stacked with more elite individual talent than the other 3 sides, the merit of each side as a collective is for another thread.

Criteria- Must have played in at least 3 flags(some Hawks have won 4) which leaves out the likes of Gary Ablett and Lance Franklin.

Dylan Grimes, Matthew Scarlett, Chris Johnson.
Luke Hodge, Justin Leppitsch, Corey Enright.

David Hale, Michael Voss, Sam Mitchell.
Simon Black, Trent Cotchin, Shane Edwards.

Jonathan Brown, Jack Reiwoldt, Dustin Martin.
Cyril Rioli, Alistair Lynch, Luke Breust.

Joel Selwood, Shaun Burgoyne, Nigel Lappin, Jason Akermanis.
_____________________________________________________________________

Unlucky- Brad Ottens, Toby Nankervis, Clark Keating, Bachar Houli, Jimmy Bartel, Steve Johnson, Paul Chapman, Darryl White, Nick Vlastuin, Brian Lake, Grant Birchall.

I found it hardest to select the ruckman and to leave out Houli, Birchall and Bartel, tossed up Edwards or Bartel and Johnson or Houli/Birchall.

There are 59 players to select from, the Lions have 16 3 time flag winners, Cats 12, Hawks 17 and Tigers have 14.
Ottens over Hale every day.
 

KissKiss

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FB: Matthew Scarlett, Brian Lake, Chris Johnson
HB: Luke Hodge, Justin Leppitsch, Corey Enright
C: Jason Akermanis, Sam Mitchell, Jimmy Bartel
HF: Steve Johnson, Jarryd Roughead, Dustin Martin
FF: Paul Chapman, Alastair Lynch, Cyril Rioli
R: Brad Ottens, Michael Voss, Simon Black

Joel Selwood Nigel Lappin Shaun Burgoyne Jack Gunston

Captain: Hodge
Vice Captains: Voss/Selwood
Coach: Clarko

Wow. That was a tough exercise...
That is probably just about what I would select with some minor quibbling over positions.

I'd probably put Lappin to the wing, Aker to the flank and then one of Johnson/Chapman to the bench. And (bias acknowledged) Voss to captain, Hodge to VC. But I think arguing captaincy between those two there's nothing in it.

Richmond feels under-represented but Im not sure who I would add. Maybe Cotchin or Edwards over Selwood or Burgoyne

I feel bad for Gibson with his two bnf's but Lake's Norm Smith makes more sense to me. Similarly Houli and possibly Grimes is a little unlucky in the backline but that is an all time great backline.

Roughhead fits the second ruck role better than Brown (who wasnt his best until a few years later), Reiwoldt also unlucky but Gunston I think has a better finals record.
 

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