Combined Best 22 of dynasty teams in 21st century

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As much as I love the Preliminaryship, it was just one game. I believe Richmond had a flu in the club (hence a whole heap of guys like Astbury simply unable to keep up and Rance found himself chasing whoever was leading), and Dusty was injured.

Very proud of the effort and we likely stopped a back to back, arguably a 4peat.

However its just one game and I wouldn't base my judgement of a player on that. There are stoppers and rebounder. Harris Andrews does both. Even in his supposedly quiet first quarter of the GF he singlehandedly stopped two likely goals with really excellent footy. Scarlett was even more clearly a stopper, and a reliable rebounder too, unafraid to dart away.

Rance just never did that to us. Houli could out think us, Grimes and Vlastuin put up a barricade. Rance was a fast athletic zoner, I never saw him put the shackles on us.

There's a chance Harris Andrews will be eligible for this soon, Brisbane are freaking great, one of the best runners up in years. Andrews would rival the brilliant Harry Taylor and all around star Roughhead (who sems to have faded from people's memory, he was an amazing player) as CHB for mine.

Dreaming on, if we somehow pinch another I wouldn't spruik our captain. I love Moore, he has a rare talent for outmarking KPF but is less adept as a stopper. I think KPD need stopping power as the first string to their bow and he's more a rebounder athlete like Rance.

Maybe we need a runners up dynasty best 22. Who is eligible? Pies 02/03, Saints 09/10, anyone else?

Richmond picked their team in that 2018 PF and they ultimately have to be judged accordingly. They were also not playing great football leading to the PF, and even if the team was fully right I don't think we could confidently say they would have won, or even gone close. You would think they'd have done better though.

But as far as individual players go, Dusty obviously wasn't right.

Astbury was not fit to be selected in an amateur game let alone an AFL Preliminary Final. This was a terrible error by Richmond but also exposed a weakness on our list, the next alternative player would have been a 2nd year Ryan Garthwaite.

And I think Astbury's inability to fulfil his role threw the whole backline into disarray, especially Rance. Rance's finals record is otherwise impeccable. His player ratings in all finals were: 8.8, 14.0, 17.6, 13.1, 13.6, 13.5, 9.0, 14.2(v Pies in the '18 PF) an average of about 13.0. To put that in context, the only Key Defenders to rate above that in home and away seasons during the period Rance was playing finals were:

Rance himself, several times

McGovern and Harold Taylor twice each

Stephen May and Scott Thompson once each.

So Rance definitely performed at a consistently high level in finals.

A good comparison would be Rance's contemporary, Harold Taylor, who was taken 1 pick before Rance in the same draft, and undoubtedly also a quality key defender. In the same years, 2013-18 his finals ratings were:

14.3, 11.7, 12.6, 9.8, 13.8, 10.1, 14.1, 20.5, 11.2, 13.6, 7.8, 8.7, 2.6, 17.4. Average around 12.1.

McGovern all finals aged 23 onwards went:

5.5, 5.7, 12.9, 3.7, 19.8, 19.9, 13.1, 8.4, 11.9, 13.9, 8.6, 18.1 an average of around 11.6

So:

All finals in their primes for which ratings are available:

Rance ave 13.0
Taylor ave 12.1
McGovern ave 11.6
 
Richmond picked their team in that 2018 PF and they ultimately have to be judged accordingly. They were also not playing great football leading to the PF, and even if the team was fully right I don't think we could confidently say they would have won, or even gone close. You would think they'd have done better though.

But as far as individual players go, Dusty obviously wasn't right.

Astbury was not fit to be selected in an amateur game let alone an AFL Preliminary Final. This was a terrible error by Richmond but also exposed a weakness on our list, the next alternative player would have been a 2nd year Ryan Garthwaite.

And I think Astbury's inability to fulfil his role threw the whole backline into disarray, especially Rance. Rance's finals record is otherwise impeccable. His player ratings in all finals were: 8.8, 14.0, 17.6, 13.1, 13.6, 13.5, 9.0, 14.2(v Pies in the '18 PF) an average of about 13.0. To put that in context, the only Key Defenders to rate above that in home and away seasons during the period Rance was playing finals were:

Rance himself, several times

McGovern and Harold Taylor twice each

Stephen May and Scott Thompson once each.

So Rance definitely performed at a consistently high level in finals.

A good comparison would be Rance's contemporary, Harold Taylor, who was taken 1 pick before Rance in the same draft, and undoubtedly also a quality key defender. In the same years, 2013-18 his finals ratings were:

14.3, 11.7, 12.6, 9.8, 13.8, 10.1, 14.1, 20.5, 11.2, 13.6, 7.8, 8.7, 2.6, 17.4. Average around 12.1.

McGovern all finals aged 23 onwards went:

5.5, 5.7, 12.9, 3.7, 19.8, 19.9, 13.1, 8.4, 11.9, 13.9, 8.6, 18.1 an average of around 11.6

So:

All finals in their primes for which ratings are available:

Rance ave 13.0
Taylor ave 12.1
McGovern ave 11.6

If anyone needs reminding just watch the first half of the 2017 GF when Richmond were in a dog fight with Adelaide. Rance was impenetrable and won countless contests, with 8 possessions and 8 intercepts. He was undoubtedly leading the NS at Half time. He had only 3 touches in the second half as Richmond took over the game and he wasn’t required.


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That period from between 2008 to 2011 was incredible actually. Five dominant teams who were the only teams who made the top 4 exc WCE in 2011.
Even WB who made the PF 3 years in a row in that era is lost on most people. Reminded me of the VFL days where there were only several teams who had a legitimate chance of winning the flag
Completely agree, 2011 especially was something quite special I reckon (not even because we won the flag) there was 3 superpower teams at the top at the same time, an 18-4 Hawks about to start a dynasty, a 19-3 Cats at the end of our dynasty, and a 20-2 Pies going for back to back, you just don’t see quality like that anymore..
 
If anyone needs reminding just watch the first half of the 2017 GF when Richmond were in a dog fight with Adelaide. Rance was impenetrable and won countless contests, with 8 possessions and 8 intercepts. He was undoubtedly leading the NS at Half time. He had only 3 touches in the second half as Richmond took over the game and he wasn’t required.


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I had no dog in that fight and would have thought Houli was leading it at HT
 
I had no dog in that fight and would have thought Houli was leading it at HT

Houli was very good. But you’ve seen the game once I assume and I know you won’t watch it again. Rance was great, including an amazing diving spoil when Walker was about to take a chest mark, which resulted in a turnover and goal to Riewoldt… 2-goal swing.


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Houli was leading at full time.

Martin got 22 contested possession at 82% … almost unheard of. 4 x goals and goal assists. When watching the game back … many times … Martin’s game was almost flawless and he was clear BOG. I accept for those who’ve seen it once (as the coaches had when giving coaches votes) you wouldn’t be able to appreciate his game fully.

4 out of 5 NS judges who had access to stats gave him BOG. All radio commentators when discussing BOG towards end of game had Martin as most likely NS…. They also had time to review stats and impact.

Houli was fantastic. Martin was next level. 22 contested possessions and 4 x goals and goal assists is something done about 1-2 per season across the competition … Martin did it in a GF when Tigers were the underdogs.

Here’s some perspective … he got 22 contested possessions and 4 x goals and goal assists.

Do you know how many times The Bont has achieved 22 x CP and 4 x goals + goal assists? Never. He’s achieved 20 & 2 twice.

Danger has achieved 20+ and 4 four times in his career. Never remotely close in a final.

Petracca has done it twice, including the 2021 GF when unanimous BOG. He had 24 contested from 39 touches in the 2021 GF and went at 74%. Martin had 22 CP from 29 touches and went at 82%.






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Interesting exercise. Rance, Cotchin and Reiwoldt should all be in there for the Tigers though, IMO.

Given the sub existed during this era, thought I'd include it as well - given Bartel would probably make the team over Birchall and C. Johnson - but I needed to make sure I kept Gibson in for defensive balance (he's also the perfect sub given he played all 3 areas of the ground).

Also agreed with others that Buddy probably shouldn't be in here as the Hawks didn't even look likely from 09-11, so 08 was more an isolated event rather than part of the dynasty. Happy to leave him in there, but, given it feels blasphemous not to have him as part of this team. Probably have J. Riewoldt in his place, Bartel on field and C. Johnson as sub, if he wasn't eligible though.

For mine:

OUT: Birchall, C. Johnson, Bartel
IN: Rance, J. Riewoldt, Cotchin
Sub: Bartel

B: J. Gibson, Scarlett, Hodge
HB: Rance, Leppitsch, Enright
C: Lappin, Cotchin, S. Black
FO: Ottens, Ablett Jnr., Voss (C)
HF: S. Johnson, J. Brown, D. Martin
F: C. Rioli, Franklin, Akermanis
INT: Selwood, S. Mitchell, Chapman, J. Riewoldt
Sub: Bartel

Cats (8)
Lions (6)
Hawks (5)
Tigers (4)

This team has literally no holes and would annihilate every other Premiership team by about 20 goals. Scary the amount of talent here.

Lake over Gibson
Lynch over Brown
Hawkins over buddy
 
Houli was leading at full time.

Fadge … where is your combined Richmond 2020GF Pies 2010GF team? You seem to be delaying it for some reason. It’s not hard to pick the best 22 from each team and submit. It’s the era that would’ve wiped the floor with this Tiger dynasty team ..surely it’s 14-8 Pies way or something similar …


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Fadge … where is your combined Richmond 2020GF Pies 2010GF team? You seem to be delaying it for some reason. It’s not hard to pick the best 22 from each team and submit. It’s the era that would’ve wiped the floor with this Tiger dynasty team ..surely it’s 14-8 Pies way or something similar …
What does it prove?

I'm on record as saying it takes a squad of 35 to win a flag.

WGAF whether Collingwood have 11, 12, 13 or 14 of the best 22 combined?

WGAF what Collingwood's best 22 looks like, and what Richmond's best 22 looks like.

It means nothing.
 
What does it prove?

I'm on record as saying it takes a squad of 35 to win a flag.

WGAF whether Collingwood have 11, 12, 13 or 14 of the best 22 combined?

WGAF what Collingwood's best 22 looks like, and what Richmond's best 22 looks like.

It means nothing.

Ok … so if the respective playing lists are lined up against a wall, having both won the Premiership … and when the best combined team is selected 12 Tiger players are chosen and 10 Pies players are chosen … it doesn’t mean anything because players on the list like John McCarthy, John Anthony and Brad Dick from the dregs of the list means the Pies of 2010 were a much stronger team..??

Given it has been widely accepted Richmond didn’t have the best dynasty list but had a brilliant system that enabled them to win three flags … if it shows we ALSO had the higher percentage of the best-22, not sure we’d have much trouble competing with Pies of 2010.

Except for those depth players down to 35 on the list … maybe that’s why we’d have struggled…


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Ok … so if the respective playing lists are lined up against a wall, having both won the Premiership … and when the best combined team is selected 12 Tiger players are chosen and 10 Pies players are chosen … it doesn’t mean anything because players on the list like John McCarthy, John Anthony and Brad Dick from the dregs of the list means the Pies of 2010 were a much stronger team..??

Given it has been widely accepted Richmond didn’t have the best dynasty list but had a brilliant system that enabled them to win three flags … if it shows we ALSO had the higher percentage of the best-22, not sure we’d have much trouble competing with Pies of 2010.

Except for those depth players down to 35 on the list … maybe that’s why we’d have struggled…
If the combined best 22 means anything to you (it doesn't to me), there have been plenty of neutrals post them and have between 11 and 14 from Collingwood.

The Richmond 2017-20 teams would have been smoked by the Collingwood 2010 and 2011 teams. Again, plenty of neutrals have stated this.
 

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If the combined best 22 means anything to you (it doesn't to me), there have been plenty of neutrals post them and have between 11 and 14 from Collingwood.

The Richmond 2017-20 teams would have been smoked by the Collingwood 2010 and 2011 teams. Again, plenty of neutrals have stated this.
Duno. Our whole game plan was built on unlimited rotations and manic pressure. Would have been a fascinating much up with Richmond’s style.
 
Just based on the 2010 and 2020 seasons only

B: Heath Shaw - Dylan Grimes - Nick Vlaustin
HB: Jayden Short - Noah Balta - Bachar Houli
C: Dale Thomas - Dane Swan - Steele Sidebottom
HF: Dustin Martin - Travis Cloke - Kane Lambert
F: Alan Didak - Tom Lynch - Jack Riewoldt
R: Darren Jolly - Scott Pendlebury - Dion Prestia
I: Shai Bolton - Luke Ball - Trent Cotchin - Nick Maxwell

10 Collingwood, 12 Richmond
 
Just based on the 2010 season only

B: Heath Shaw - Dylan Grimes - Nick Vlaustin
HB: Jayden Short - Noah Balta - Heritier Lumumba
C: Dale Thomas - Dane Swan - Steele Sidebottom
HF: Dustin Martin - Travis Cloke - Kane Lambert
F: Alan Didak - Tom Lynch - Jack Riewoldt
R: Darren Jolly - Scott Pendlebury - Dion Prestia
I: Shai Bolton - Luke Ball - Trent Cotchin - Nick Maxwell
Sub: Dayne Beams

12 Collingwood, 11 Richmond
You are a very brave man. Brace yourself
 
To leave a comment on what I think - I usually rate teams based on the time. I do think the Collingwood 2010 team was better, relative to the football that was played at the time. Having said that, I'm also a firm believer that football is always advancing in many ways and that the recent years of football are technically, tactically and skilfully the best we've ever seen, and I think the Richmond 2020 side would actually beat the Pies 2010 side, if that makes sense. I think Brisbane's threepeat side were better than Richmond's dynasty, but I'm not convinced they would actually win in a hypothetical game.
 
To leave a comment on what I think - I usually rate teams based on the time. I do think the Collingwood 2010 team was better, relative to the football that was played at the time. Having said that, I'm also a firm believer that football is always advancing in many ways and that the recent years of football are technically, tactically and skilfully the best we've ever seen, and I think the Richmond 2020 side would actually beat the Pies 2010 side, if that makes sense. I think Brisbane's threepeat side were better than Richmond's dynasty, but I'm not convinced they would actually win in a hypothetical game.
Indeed.

And the West Coast 2023 side would beat the Collingwood 1927 to 1930 team by 30 goals.

But that's not how we compare teams across different eras.
 
Fadge should be knighted for his services to bullsh!t. He is the best in the business. :hearteyes:

Collingwood 2010-11 played 2 Grand Finals with an average deficit of 19 points(0 and -38) The Pies percentage from those Grand Finals was 80%.

Richmond 2017-20 played 3 Grand Finals with an average surplus of over 58 points, a small matter of 77 points better than super-era Collingwood averaged in their Grand Finals. The Tigers percentage in those Grand Finals was 222%, almost 3 x the super-era Magpies Grand Final percentage.

Yet, it seems to scoreboard got these Grand Finals incredibly wrong. Shockingly wrong. No wonder the MCG has to keep updating its scoreboards.

The team that won zero from 2 Grand Finals and had a GF percentage of 80 with an average deficit of 19 points would apparently have "destroyed" the team that won 3 from 3 Grand Finals with an average surplus of 58 points and a percentage off 222%.

This, my friend is the thought system we affectionately refer to on these pages as fagic. Fadge logic. No finer method of distorting actual facts has ever existed. :tearsofjoy:
 
Fadge should be knighted for his services to bullsh!t. He is the best in the business. :hearteyes:

Collingwood 2010-11 played 2 Grand Finals with an average deficit of 19 points(0 and -38) The Pies percentage from those Grand Finals was 80%.

Richmond 2017-20 played 3 Grand Finals with an average surplus of over 58 points, a small matter of 77 points better than super-era Collingwood averaged in their Grand Finals. The Tigers percentage in those Grand Finals was 222%, almost 3 x the super-era Magpies Grand Final percentage.

Yet, it seems to scoreboard got these Grand Finals incredibly wrong. Shockingly wrong. No wonder the MCG has to keep updating its scoreboards.

The team that won zero from 2 Grand Finals and had a GF percentage of 80 with an average deficit of 19 points would apparently have "destroyed" the team that won 3 from 3 Grand Finals with an average surplus of 58 points and a percentage off 222%.

This, my friend is the thought system we affectionately refer to on these pages as fagic. Fadge logic. No finer method of distorting actual facts has ever existed. :tearsofjoy:
Yep, because let's just take five stand-alone games from a data set of over 150 games to form our conclusions.

And let's completely ignore the final games of the teams' respective seasons on two occasions, one being a 39 point loss to Richmond in the 2018 Preliminary Final (that loss being against a Collingwood team that would just sneak into the top 10 of that club's best teams in the past 22 seasons), and the other being a 56 point win to Collingwood in the 2010 Grand Final Replay - the match that determined the season's premier under the rules of the day.

And let's just use margins, because it's obvious to us all that the 38 point margin of Geelong over Collingwood in the 2011 Grand Final was as emphatic and comfortable a victory as the 39 point margin of Collingwood over Richmond in the 2018 Preliminary Final (a game that was excluded from the original poster's 'analysis').

And let's completely disregard the quality of the opposition.

Just typical Meteoric Stats Sheet Anlalyst Ruse stuff....
 
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Fadge should be knighted for his services to bullsh!t. He is the best in the business. :hearteyes:

Collingwood 2010-11 played 2 Grand Finals with an average deficit of 19 points(0 and -38) The Pies percentage from those Grand Finals was 80%.

Richmond 2017-20 played 3 Grand Finals with an average surplus of over 58 points, a small matter of 77 points better than super-era Collingwood averaged in their Grand Finals. The Tigers percentage in those Grand Finals was 222%, almost 3 x the super-era Magpies Grand Final percentage.

Yet, it seems to scoreboard got these Grand Finals incredibly wrong. Shockingly wrong. No wonder the MCG has to keep updating its scoreboards.

The team that won zero from 2 Grand Finals and had a GF percentage of 80 with an average deficit of 19 points would apparently have "destroyed" the team that won 3 from 3 Grand Finals with an average surplus of 58 points and a percentage off 222%.

This, my friend is the thought system we affectionately refer to on these pages as fagic. Fadge logic. No finer method of distorting actual facts has ever existed. :tearsofjoy:

That’s like Clyde Barrow calling Johnny Utah a bank robber.
 

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