Who is the best midfielder of the 21st century?

[Cleansweep17]

See, Ablett Jnr has 10 x Brownlows/Coaches Awards/League MVP's spread across 5 different seasons (would have been 13 if not for a season ending injury in round 15 2014) to go with his 6 x club best and fairests and 8 All-Australians.

Martin has 3 x Brownlow/Coaches Award/League MVP, spread across 1 season, to go with his 2 x club best and fairests and 4 x All-Australians.

It's like comparing Roger Federer with Lleyton Hewitt.

Nobody is disputing he has a better H&A record than Martin. That’s not the point.

 

[Mr Meow]

Also Lebron v Jordan is very similar to GAJ vs Dusty.

One dominates all the H&A awards, has less flags and greater consistency and the other dominates finals, has more flags and a better peak (including finals). They couldn’t be more polar opposite.

Most people say Jordan is better.

90% of neutrals, conservatively, rate GAJ higher than Dusty. So I think you've got your maths badly wrong there.

 

[H00t]

Players would disagree, it’s literally what they play for. H&A is just a qualifier, finals are where it’s at.

Ask Lachie Neale whether he’d want to trade his Brownlow for the NS in the most recent GF. Bad GF performances haunt players and great ones are where legends are made, in every sport really.

It’s a team sport. Getting the win is much more important than any individual award.

Those players would trade in their medals for winning a flag not the Norm Smith.

Not winning haunts players. No one cares if you put in a down perfomance in a win.

Take GAJ in 2007. Has a huge pf to get them over the pies. Then the cats crush port easily and he gets to coast along just enjoying the day.

Doesn’t matter his performance was slightly down on his high standards as his team won easily. And in reverse some players have huge games in grand finals but because their team doesn’t win it doesn’t get remembered. Those players would gladly trade their perfomance in for a flag.

 

[Cleansweep17]

90% of neutrals, conservatively, rate GAJ higher than Dusty. So I think you've got your maths badly wrong there.

Maybe here on Bigfooty, but defs not the NBA and soccers fans that’s for sure. Americans especially value finals more than H&A.

 

[Mr Meow]

It’s a team sport. Getting the win is much more important than any individual award.

Those players would trade in their medals for winning a flag not the Norm Smith.

Not winning haunts players. No one cares if you put in a down perfomance in a win.

Take GAJ in 2007. Has a huge pf to get them over the pies. Then the cats crush port easily and he gets to coast along just enjoying the day.

Doesn’t matter his performance was slightly down on his high standards as his team won easily. And in reverse some players have huge games in grand finals but because their team doesn’t win it doesn’t get remembered. Those players would gladly trade their perfomance in for a flag.

Even though he wasn't in the few BOG in the 2009 GF (still an underrated performance copping a heavy tag in the wet), you remove GAJ from the 2007-2009 finals series and Geelong get 0 flags, with the '08 grand final becoming a 10+ goal dribbling. 2011 isn't going to happen without a foundation.

Remove Dusty 2017-2020 finals series and only the last flag is slightly in jeapordy. They probably don't close out the Port prelim.

GAJ was more crucial to Geelong securing multiple flags than Dusty was to Richmond. The legendary '07 prelim performance in the nail biter; if they throw that one away welcome to reliving the early 90s for that side.

 

[Forward Press]

Maybe here on Bigfooty, but defs not the NBA and soccers fans that’s for sure. Americans especially value finals more than H&A.

Didn't know BigFooty and the AFL were American.

We should re-do the poll with this new information that has come to hand.

I guess it was inevitable that eventually this would be a 'Dusty is better than GAJ' thread once Richmond supporters got their teeth on it.

 

[Cleansweep17]

It’s a team sport. Getting the win is much more important than any individual award.

Those players would trade in their medals for winning a flag not the Norm Smith.

Not winning haunts players. No one cares if you put in a down perfomance in a win.

Take GAJ in 2007. Has a huge pf to get them over the pies. Then the cats crush port easily and he gets to coast along just enjoying the day.

Doesn’t matter his performance was slightly down on his high standards as his team won easily. And in reverse some players have huge games in grand finals but because their team doesn’t win it doesn’t get remembered. Those players would gladly trade their perfomance in for a flag.

Right they value flags that’s why the BEST player in finals and the GF would be valued THE MOST. That’s who will win it for you.

So ask the players right now pre season, would they rather win the 2024 Brownlow or 2024 Norm Smith? Pretty obvious answer.

 

[Mr Meow]

Maybe here on Bigfooty, but defs not the NBA and soccers fans that’s for sure. Americans especially value finals more than H&A.

But your comparison was wrong. You said just like the NBA, AFL supporters/experts rate Dusty higher based on a Jordan like equivalence. Simply not true. In fact fairly delusional.

Jordan was the league's best player 5 different seasons, not once like Martin.

 

[Forward Press]

Right they value flags that’s why the BEST player in finals and the GF would be valued THE MOST. That’s who will win it for you.

So ask the players right now pre season, would they rather win the 2024 Brownlow or 2024 Norm Smith? Pretty obvious answer.

If you ask the players whether they would rather win the 2024 Norm Smith or the 2024 premiership medal, what is the answer?

 

[STPer18]

And no players don’t like participation awards. If we gave Nic Nat a premiership medal do you think he’d value it? Don’t think so.

That's not even close to what I was inferring. The point I was making is I doubt it's the Norm Smith medal Lachie Neale is wishing he won last year, it's the premiership medal. Most players to have ever played the game would take being part of the premiership winning team and simply playing their role over winning the NS in a losing GF. Didn't think it was even that contentious of a point truth be told.

 

[H00t]

Right they value flags that’s why the BEST player in finals and the GF would be valued THE MOST. That’s who will win it for you.

So ask the players right now pre season, would they rather win the 2024 Brownlow or 2024 Norm Smith? Pretty obvious answer.

Players don’t win flags. Teams do. It’s the best team on the day that wins. Every player is important and that’s why flags are generally decided by the bottom 6 players not the top 6.

Players would take the Norm Smith because they’d likely have won the flag if they won it. Players would take the Brownlow though if you removed the flag aspect or they’d win the NS but lose the flag.

 

[Cleansweep17]

But your comparison was wrong. You said just like the NBA, AFL supporters/experts rate Dusty higher based on a Jordan like equivalence. Simply not true. In fact fairly delusional.

Jordan was the league's best player 5 different seasons, not once like Martin.

Idk about AFL supporters, I’m taking your word for it on Bigfooty. But we can see what other sports fans value and it’s not H&A it’s finals. Brady, Jordan, Messi are prime examples. Finals is what separates them from the rest of the pack.

I’m not saying you can be a plodder in H&A and just have a better finals record. I’m just saying Finals gives significant points to a players reputation. These other guys are saying it has no baring at all.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Players don’t win flags. Teams do. It’s the best team on the day that wins. Every player is important and that’s why flags are generally decided by the bottom 6 players not the top 6.

Players would take the Norm Smith because they’d likely have won the flag if they won it. Players would take the Brownlow though if you removed the flag aspect or they’d win the NS but lose the flag.

No individual players wins games/are the difference makers many times.

If cats won the 89 GF it would have been solely because of GAS and would be lauded as the best ever GF performance. It sort of is already tbh. See what I am saying?

 

[Forward Press]

No individual players wins games/are the difference makers many times.

If cats won the 89 GF it would have been solely because of GAS and would be lauded as the best ever GF performance. It sort of is already tbh. See what I am saying?

But they didn't, and as a result I bet Paul Couch (RIP) wished he had a 1989 flag instead of a 1989 Brownlow medal. Lenny Hayes almost got St Kilda over the line in 2010 - but they ultimately did not salute the next week and he would rather trade in his Norm Smith for a premiership.

I seriously don't know why you're going on with this, it's a losing battle.

 

[Cleansweep17]

But they didn't, and as a result I bet Paul Couch wishes he had a flag instead of a Brownlow medal. Lenny Hayes almost got St Kilda over the line in 2010 - but they ultimately did not salute the next week and he would rather trade in his Norm Smith for a premiership.

I seriously don't know why you're going on with this, it's a losing battle.

So you’re saying there is no situation where a player has dominated a game and if you took them out the team would’ve lost. Ok, guess the 0 disposal guy and the BOG guy contributes the same in GF wins. Should consider them equally.

 

[Forward Press]

So you’re saying there is no situation where a player has dominated a game and if you took them out the team would’ve lost. Ok, guess the 0 disposal guy and the BOG guy contributes the same in GF wins. Should consider them equally.

Not what I'm saying at all. You are just going on and on about Norm Smith and Gary Ayres awards being the best measure of a player when we have been saying they are not, and then making strange comparisons like 'Neale would trade in his Brownlow for a Norm Smith'. No, he would trade his Brownlow in for a premiership.

 

[Mr Meow]

Idk about AFL supporters, I’m taking your word for it on Bigfooty. But we can see what other sports fans value and it’s not H&A it’s finals. Brady, Jordan, Messi are prime examples. Finals is what separates them from the rest of the pack.

I’m not saying you can be a plodder in H&A and just have a better finals record. I’m just saying Finals gives significant points to a players reputation. These other guys are saying it has no baring at all.

Messi for Argentina is an interesting one. Olympics aren't counted as sides aren't full strength.

Messi's first 5 finals with Argentina (spanning 14 years) he didn't score or assist any goals, even in the 5th one that they won.

Finally in the 2022 world cup he starred, including 2 goals and an assist in the final. Like Dangerfield starring in 2022.

His goal/assist per game ratio was also smaller in finals at club level than his career record.

Bit of an odd comparison with that in mind.

Legendary player nonetheless.

 

[Fadge]

I guess it was inevitable that eventually this would be a 'Dusty is better than GAJ' thread once Richmond supporters got their teeth on it.

Even better than that....

'Dusty is the AFL equivalent to Michael Jordan'!

 

[Cleansweep17]

Not what I'm saying at all. You are just going on and on about Norm Smith and Gary Ayres awards being the best measure of a player when we have been saying they are not, and then making strange comparisons like 'Neale would trade in his Brownlow for a Norm Smith'. No, he would trade his Brownlow in for a premiership.

It’s A measure not THE measure. Anyway yeah I’ll leave it here I’m getting off topic.

 

[bradee]

Gaz jnr the most complete footballer I’ve seen.
If you were publishing a learn to football book jnr would be the example for every discipline
Irrespective of accolades was an absolute joy to watch.
Buddy barely marked over head
Dusty barely tackled
Judd had a poor left foot
Gaz did it all

Don't know how you watched Judd,but he certainly did not have a poor left foot.Was very good on the left.

 

[Fadge]

These other guys are saying it has no baring at all.

Noone has said that.

 

[Forward Press]

It’s A measure not THE measure. Anyway yeah I’ll leave it here I’m getting off topic.

Sure, but when it's a medal open to only a few players every season, then it becomes less important.

By virtue of being surrounded with plodders for the majority of their careers and thus haven't appeared in as many finals and Grand Finals as they perhaps deserve, genuine superstars like Matthew Pavlich, Brad Johnson and Matthew Richardson shouldn't have their individual achievements downplayed because Steele Sidebottom won the Gary Ayres medal in 2018.

 

[Fadge]

So you’re saying there is no situation where a player has dominated a game and if you took them out the team would’ve lost. Ok, guess the 0 disposal guy and the BOG guy contributes the same in GF wins. Should consider them equally.

Take any of the following players out of the Collingwood 2023 Grand Final team, and they likely lose that game:
Hill
De Goey
Crisp
N. Daicos
Mitchell
Pendlebury

 

[H00t]

No individual players wins games/are the difference makers many times.

If cats won the 89 GF it would have been solely because of GAS and would be lauded as the best ever GF performance. It sort of is already tbh. See what I am saying?

You are proving my point. The better team won. Doesn’t matter how well one player players if the other team plays better.

In a close game an act from any player can win the game. This is different from the best player. Often can be unrelated to it as well.

Also winning on the day isn’t the hardest part of a winning a flag.

It’s winning enough games to get into the final that is.

 

[Mr Meow]

Even better than that....

'Dusty is the AFL equivalent to Michael Jordan'!

Jordan was the best player in the league for 5+ years and the Bulls best finals performer during their peak years. Just like Ablett 2007-2010 for Geelong. He then became arguably better for 4 years, it just happened to be at a terrible team. For sustained excellence, Ablett matches Jordan (or LeBron)* much more than Martin.

However in basketball you have maybe two stars and a handful of excellent role players so the competition for Finals MVP is nothing like AFL. Also, finals MVP has only existed since 2016 for AFL and before that a standalone game is a tiny sample size.

Anyway back to the comparisons, Martin is more like Kevin Durant who won the League MVP once and Finals MVP twice. It's being generous to Martin given Durant made the All Star team 13 times and was the MVP for that game twice as well, but given what Dusty achieved in finals '17, '19, '20.

Imagine people arguing for Durant over Jordan or LeBron though. This is what Richmond supporters are doing when they try to push for Dusty.

*Matthews was like if there was a Super Jordan from the 70's/80's but that's a different comparison.