Coach Craig McRae

[gouki88]

I think Hayden Skipworth is the only legacy person of note on the panel from Buckley’s time?

Leppa, Bolts, and Wade all came on board with Fly.

When did Scott Selwood come to the Pies?

 

[76woodenspooners]

Curious to reflect what fate delivered …

Two and a half years ago a large portion of the membership base were pushing for an EGM to turf out the board and burn the joint to the ground.

If those members could know what success the coaching panel appointed by that board would bring, do you reckon those members would give a rat’s clacker that Bridie O’Donnell was a Western Bulldogs loving AFLW supporter who hadn’t met the minimum membership requirements to join the board?

 

[76woodenspooners]

When did Scott Selwood come to the Pies?

Good call out. IIRC he was there before, and left, but then we brought him back again.

 

[Vicky Park]

Curious to reflect what fate delivered …

Two and a half years ago a large portion of the membership base were pushing for an EGM to turf out the board and burn the joint to the ground.

If those members could know what success the coaching panel appointed by that board would bring, do you reckon those members would give a rat’s clacker that Bridie O’Donnell was a Western Bulldogs loving AFLW supporter who hadn’t met the minimum membership requirements to join the board?

Having the same thoughts 76. The carry on over the board, the petition by the outraged - and look what’s been delivered.

 

[Crazy Tails]

Im super excited to see Flys approach to a premiership defense. He has the people tools to keep this group switched on and on a mission to achieve something special. Will be an exciting 2024!!!

Yeah me too. His messaging this year was "Chase #16" and even late in the season he would keep saying "we are still growing, there's still growth in us". It will be intriguing to see how he handles the group now they have already reached the ultimate so quickly under his watch.

I wonder if it will be along the lines of getting to outright #1 on the premiership table and doing it again for the old stagers Pendles/Steele/Howe as they possibly enter their last season.

 

[jathanas]

But according to some in the media Bucks played a big part in this premiership. Give me a break, the guy was a poor leader and it's time to admit it.

Buckley won coach of the year during his time, a Brownlow, a Norm Smith, and multiple B&F's as captain. He came agonisingly close to the ultimate as both.

His bond and care for the club was put on display during his classy exit, and his response to #16.

As an important part of the club's history Nathan should be respected and embraced accordingly.

This is the Fly method and the way.

 

[jathanas]

Having the same thoughts 76. The carry on over the board, the petition by the outraged - and look what’s been delivered.

If the only thing that this board has achieved is facilitate the process to hire Fly and team, then their existence is justified.

* I reserve all rights to remain outraged.

 

[Quicky]

Yeah me too. His messaging this year was "Chase #16" and even late in the season he would keep saying "we are still growing, there's still growth in us". It will be intriguing to see how he handles the group now they have already reached the ultimate so quickly under his watch.

I wonder if it will be along the lines of getting to outright #1 on the premiership table and doing it again for the old stagers Pendles/Steele/Howe as they possibly enter their last season.

Or do it for yourselves and be legends.

 

[Cyclops]

Bucks wouldn’t have a bar of it. On the Couch when they talked about it he made it clear this group was ‘different’ to his group. Wouldn’t take an ounce of credit for his ‘fingerprints on the group’. Collingwood legend Bucks.

Yes thats true.

Moore stressed that this playing group was a continuation of past playing groups, so I think that honoured Bucks and Mick and the rest is a suitable way.

I think Hayden Skipworth is the only legacy person of note on the panel from Buckley’s time?

Leppa, Bolts, and Wade all came on board with Fly.

Yes the coaching group needed to be refreshed. The one year Bucks loosened up, they delegated a bit was 2017, and it had great results. I think Bucks (plus his assistants obv) was a good coach, McRae (plus his group) is a great coach.

I am think about the broader handover, the way Korda was a transitional president (as it turned out) and Bucks and Eddie were supportive of change. I think Eddie had an extremely hard time stepping down but he hasn't done anything to mar Browne's tenure, contrasts positively with John Elliot's (and his mates) toxic destruction of Carlton in office and as a powerbroker.

There wasn't a witch hunt among players, no sudden change of leaders. Eddie brought in Wright, the salary cap clean out began under Bucks.

We did some things very wrong but the people responsible accepted the blame and moved on, and it helped the club bounce back.

 

[BigVic]

Credit to Fly's assistants as well with senior coaching experience has helped

 

[kartanoman]

Yes thats true.

Moore stressed that this playing group was a continuation of past playing groups, so I think that honoured Bucks and Mick and the rest is a suitable way.


Yes the coaching group needed to be refreshed. The one year Bucks loosened up, they delegated a bit was 2017, and it had great results. I think Bucks (plus his assistants obv) was a good coach, McRae (plus his group) is a great coach.

I am think about the broader handover, the way Korda was a transitional president (as it turned out) and Bucks and Eddie were supportive of change. I think Eddie had an extremely hard time stepping down but he hasn't done anything to mar Browne's tenure, contrasts positively with John Elliot's (and his mates) toxic destruction of Carlton in office and as a powerbroker.

There wasn't a witch hunt among players, no sudden change of leaders. Eddie brought in Wright, the salary cap clean out began under Bucks.

We did some things very wrong but the people responsible accepted the blame and moved on, and it helped the club bounce back.

Very well stated!

Buckley had made mistakes during his time as a head coach. In fact, it nearly cost him his job following the 2017 season. You cited some of the changes he began to implement in the back half of the 2017 season which yielded positive results. Yet, it was understandable that some were frustrated when he was given a contract extension following the end of season comprehensive review. It is clear that some remain resentful the Club made that decision.

But make no mistake that Buckley knew he had to change his leadership ways, his approach and connect differently with his players. I was fortunate enough to find the following video, secure the DVD and have the opportunity to watch it in its entirety as I cannot watch the video, and consider Buckley's reflections recently from "On The Couch" and "The Buck Stops Here," without feeling an emotion for him, his efforts and not achieving the ultimate goal. The video, "Collingwood From the Inside Out" is an intimate look at Buckley, Jarryd Blair, Adam Treloar and Brodie Grundy and their personal lives and challenges through the 2018 season as it culminated in the heartbreaking Grand Final Loss.

Preview:
Collingwood From the Inside Out

Collingwood From the Inside Out: Nathan Buckley following the Grand Final loss to West Coast:
2018 Grand Final Nathan Buckley post-game addressing his players

In 2019, his team finished fourth and defeated Geelong in the Qualification Final but lost to GWS in the Preliminary Final. The COVID season of 2020 may have hit Buckley's team worse than any of the others since they were road warriors for nearly the entire season. Despite the challenges, they made the eight and pulled off an epic upset of West Coast in the Elimination Final before bowing out against Geelong. The stress, strain and pressure from coming within a goal of winning it all in 2018, and seeing it slowly slip away in subsequent years, took a tremendous toll on Buckley and his players. By 2021, their competitive run was finished and, with the systemic issues with the Club now competing with the football for front page news, Buckley knew it was the end of the line.

With new Club Leadership, and a new Head Coach in McRae, the reset button was effectively pushed and new life breathed into the players, the football club and its operations. We've witnessed the magic of the last two seasons and are now in the midst of the great times. Without question, they are the very best in the 40 years I've followed this Club.

The beginning of the transformation did, indeed, start with Buckley in the back half of the 2017 season. He was bringing in the right players; however, they weren't quite ready yet to deliver a Premiership. They came so close in 2018! But I am not 100% sold the ultimate loss is on Buckley. The win was deservedly on West Coast who bombarded our boys in the final quarter and would not relent until the final siren. The 2019 Preliminary Final was the most frustrating finals loss because the Magpies should have kicked goals in the final quarter but did everything except that. In 2020, their tank was clearly empty against a Geelong side that was clearly out to settle a score from the previous season's finals campaign. In the final analysis, Buckley couldn't get them over the finish line and that will be his fate as a coach. But his fingerprints are all over the 2023 Premiers and that is clear as is day. In the end, though, the glory belongs to Craig McRae, his staff and HIS players who made it over the finish line.

The 2023 Premiership is for ALL who bleed the black and white. To be sure, that would also include Nathan Buckley.

Peace!

 

[Venkman]

Buckley won coach of the year during his time, a Brownlow, a Norm Smith, and multiple B&F's as captain. He came agonisingly close to the ultimate as both.

His bond and care for the club was put on display during his classy exit, and his response to #16.

As an important part of the club's history Nathan should be respected and embraced accordingly.

This is the Fly method and the way.

This is the way.

 

[Anzacday]

What a guy…

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Hey guys, sorry to intervene on your clubs thread like this, especially as an opposition supporter.

Found this interview with Fly while searching the web and thought it might be interesting to listen to for your mob and my club’s fan-base.

Well done on winning the premiership this year and even though I’m a salty Brisbane Lions supporter still from the loss, your team definitely deserved the win over us in the end, while all the best for 2024 and beyond as well

 

[ThePhantom777]

Hey guys, sorry to intervene on your clubs thread like this, especially as an opposition supporter.

Found this interview with Fly while searching the web and thought it might be interesting to listen to for your mob and my club’s fan-base.

Well done on winning the premiership this year and even though I’m a salty Brisbane Lions supporter still from the loss, your team definitely deserved the win over us in the end, while all the best for 2024 and beyond as well

This video is 3 mins of Fly then 2.5 hours of some wealth guru flogging something

 

[Cubs2Lions]

This video is 3 mins of Fly then 2.5 hours of some wealth guru flogging something

Shit, I only watched the first two mins and thought it was a decent interview with Fly without realising the rest of the video was a scam

I am such a horrible person sometimes, really sorry for posting that as I didn’t mean it on bad intentions for your supporters

 

[Abdul_The_Bull]

No harm, no foul.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

No harm, no foul.

Thanks mate, I come again in peace Magpies faithful but this time, I have a proper interview with Fly that isn’t two minutes long of him that you all might be interested in listening to sometime in the future.

Hopefully my sins are now amended for by y’all and I can live my life without any nightmares now

How Craig McRae changed the landscape for AFL coaches & experienced the best day of his life - Empowering Leaders

In this powerful episode of Empowering Leaders, Craig McCrae takes us on his journey to becoming Senior Coach of the 2023 AFL Premiership winning Collingwood Football Club. Throughout this conversation, you'll gain a deep insight into Fly's leadership approach - he's values-based, he empowers...

omny.fm

 

[Prestigerrycomo]

Ignore the background noise, this year no doubt was one of our worst-but we're not in disarray. We're re-grouping

Excited for the future

Get around me!!!

 

[GreekLunatic]

Our last 3 premiership have come from a non Collingwood background. we are in good hands with Fly

 

[FIGJAM]

Curious to reflect what fate delivered …

Two and a half years ago a large portion of the membership base were pushing for an EGM to turf out the board and burn the joint to the ground.

If those members could know what success the coaching panel appointed by that board would bring, do you reckon those members would give a rat’s clacker that Bridie O’Donnell was a Western Bulldogs loving AFLW supporter who hadn’t met the minimum membership requirements to join the board?

You'd need to get the timeline right here, 76ers!

When the EGM push came into play, probably the primary burning issue that fans had was that the last 7 or so or Eddie's years was an autocratic train wreck.

There was a plethora of individual **** ups, such as the salary cap breach, fire sale, the Grundy contract that was taken out of the hands of the footy department (as stated by Buckley), the Gubby Allen appointment, treatment of Balmey, the appointment of a player manager who had no list and salary cap management experience, the continuation of the Bill Davoren fitness years by appointing his assistant Kevin White, recruiting Beams back in at $800K pa to watch him fingerpaint, the Goodes gaffe, other general gaffes, the final Do Better Report gaffe and the fact that most of our black fella ex-players didn't want anything to do with us. Not to mention us going backwards on the ladder every year under Buckley save for the year that we almost fluked one. And I know I'm forgetting shit here, it was a substantially ****en terrible time!

So, when Holgate appointed Korda from within and got the ineligible Neil Wilson in, it felt a bit more of the same Eddie McGuire model to many members. The President, two lieutenants, a couple of generally pleasant ex-players and some token types on the side, with no actual election and to even take immense pride in there being no election.

But those fans who were sceptical and even Jeff Browne gave some rope to see if they'd actually changed. But when we had a finals quality list careering dangerously towards to a wooden spoon, the Bridie affair was a pill to big to swallow! The due diligence of the post-Eddie era that we all kinda demanded was not evident whatsoever! Nobody checked to see if she even supported Collingwood, stated things against us in the past, her social media outlets, or if she was a member for the minimum period of time. Her goals coming into the club were to do with the women's side of things and charity work, but had zero things to say that side of our business without which nothing else exists.

At this point the EGM push started and over 2000 signatures were obtained, despite the fact that the games in Vic were stopped after just one round of collections due to the Rona. Fair to say that it was at this point the rocket was placed firmly up the arse of the previous board.

Buckley's dismissal wasn't even on the agenda at this point.

Before they finally showed due diligence in searching for a coach and getting the likes of Luke Ball in to provide a contemporary player's perspective.

Long before the appointment of McCrae and Co.

And long before they showed due diligence in the stellar appointment of Jarrod Wade.

Making a claim that this thoroughness would have happened anyway without the EGM push and Browne pressure is a stretch based on their previous history. It's like someone stating that had Eddie had had his 2021 'Lap of Honour' without the 'Do Better Report' gaffe, that he wouldn't have extended Buckley's contract for another year or two.

It's possible, I suppose, but would you be putting the 2023 Premiership Cup on it?

Ultimately, the argy-bargy of 2021 via the EGM group and others including Browne, Carp, Roberts, Tuddy, Galbally, the 2000+ fans who signed the petition, one of the coterie groups (who needed to remain silent as a part of their charter) and many on the online fan forums like here, were all pushing for the same assurance that we were going to flush out the last of the autocratic decisions made at the Club, that we got a vote and that we were going to get the level of professionalism from top to bottom that we deserve. And I think we've achieved that and we're now in an obvious "Post-Ed Collingwood", which I don't think would have happened with the same clarity if the aforementioned just sat on their hands and said and did nothing.

But we're all Side by Side now and were the mother****en' 2023 Premiers!!!!!

 

[NMBB]

You'd need to get the timeline right here, 76ers!

When the EGM push came into play, probably the primary burning issue that fans had was that the last 7 or so or Eddie's years was an autocratic train wreck.

There was a plethora of individual * ups, such as the salary cap breach, fire sale, the Grundy contract that was taken out of the hands of the footy department (as stated by Buckley), the Gubby Allen appointment, treatment of Balmey, the appointment of a player manager who had no list and salary cap management experience, the continuation of the Bill Davoren fitness years by appointing his assistant Kevin White, recruiting Beams back in at $800K pa to watch him fingerpaint, the Goodes gaffe, other general gaffes, the final Do Better Report gaffe and the fact that most of our black fella ex-players didn't want anything to do with us. Not to mention us going backwards on the ladder every year under Buckley save for the year that we almost fluked one. And I know I'm forgetting s**t here, it was a substantially *en terrible time!

So, when Holgate appointed Korda from within and got the ineligible Neil Wilson in, it felt a bit more of the same Eddie McGuire model to many members. The President, two lieutenants, a couple of generally pleasant ex-players and some token types on the side, with no actual election and to even take immense pride in there being no election.

But those fans who were sceptical and even Jeff Browne gave some rope to see if they'd actually changed. But when we had a finals quality list careering dangerously towards to a wooden spoon, the Bridie affair was a pill to big to swallow! The due diligence of the post-Eddie era that we all kinda demanded was not evident whatsoever! Nobody checked to see if she even supported Collingwood, stated things against us in the past, her social media outlets, or if she was a member for the minimum period of time. Her goals coming into the club were to do with the women's side of things and charity work, but had zero things to say that side of our business without which nothing else exists.

At this point the EGM push started and over 2000 signatures were obtained, despite the fact that the games in Vic were stopped after just one round of collections due to the Rona. Fair to say that it was at this point the rocket was placed firmly up the arse of the previous board.

Buckley's dismissal wasn't even on the agenda at this point.

Before they finally showed due diligence in searching for a coach and getting the likes of Luke Ball in to provide a contemporary player's perspective.

Long before the appointment of McCrae and Co.

And long before they showed due diligence in the stellar appointment of Jarrod Wade.

Making a claim that this thoroughness would have happened anyway without the EGM push and Browne pressure is a stretch based on their previous history. It's like someone stating that had Eddie had had his 2021 'Lap of Honour' without the 'Do Better Report' gaffe, that he wouldn't have extended Buckley's contract for another year or two.

It's possible, I suppose, but would you be putting the 2023 Premiership Cup on it?

Ultimately, the argy-bargy of 2021 via the EGM group and others including Browne, Carp, Roberts, Tuddy, Galbally, the 2000+ fans who signed the petition, one of the coterie groups (who needed to remain silent as a part of their charter) and many on the online fan forums like here, were all pushing for the same assurance that we were going to flush out the last of the autocratic decisions made at the Club, that we got a vote and that we were going to get the level of professionalism from top to bottom that we deserve. And I think we've achieved that and we're now in an obvious "Post-Ed Collingwood", which I don't think would have happened with the same clarity if the aforementioned just sat on their hands and said and did nothing.

But we're all Side by Side now and were the mother*en' 2023 Premiers!!!!!

This

 

[76woodenspooners]

You'd need to get the timeline right here, 76ers!

When the EGM push came into play, probably the primary burning issue that fans had was that the last 7 or so or Eddie's years was an autocratic train wreck.

There was a plethora of individual * ups, such as the salary cap breach, fire sale, the Grundy contract that was taken out of the hands of the footy department (as stated by Buckley), the Gubby Allen appointment, treatment of Balmey, the appointment of a player manager who had no list and salary cap management experience, the continuation of the Bill Davoren fitness years by appointing his assistant Kevin White, recruiting Beams back in at $800K pa to watch him fingerpaint, the Goodes gaffe, other general gaffes, the final Do Better Report gaffe and the fact that most of our black fella ex-players didn't want anything to do with us. Not to mention us going backwards on the ladder every year under Buckley save for the year that we almost fluked one. And I know I'm forgetting s**t here, it was a substantially *en terrible time!

So, when Holgate appointed Korda from within and got the ineligible Neil Wilson in, it felt a bit more of the same Eddie McGuire model to many members. The President, two lieutenants, a couple of generally pleasant ex-players and some token types on the side, with no actual election and to even take immense pride in there being no election.

But those fans who were sceptical and even Jeff Browne gave some rope to see if they'd actually changed. But when we had a finals quality list careering dangerously towards to a wooden spoon, the Bridie affair was a pill to big to swallow! The due diligence of the post-Eddie era that we all kinda demanded was not evident whatsoever! Nobody checked to see if she even supported Collingwood, stated things against us in the past, her social media outlets, or if she was a member for the minimum period of time. Her goals coming into the club were to do with the women's side of things and charity work, but had zero things to say that side of our business without which nothing else exists.

At this point the EGM push started and over 2000 signatures were obtained, despite the fact that the games in Vic were stopped after just one round of collections due to the Rona. Fair to say that it was at this point the rocket was placed firmly up the arse of the previous board.

Buckley's dismissal wasn't even on the agenda at this point.

Before they finally showed due diligence in searching for a coach and getting the likes of Luke Ball in to provide a contemporary player's perspective.

Long before the appointment of McCrae and Co.

And long before they showed due diligence in the stellar appointment of Jarrod Wade.

Making a claim that this thoroughness would have happened anyway without the EGM push and Browne pressure is a stretch based on their previous history. It's like someone stating that had Eddie had had his 2021 'Lap of Honour' without the 'Do Better Report' gaffe, that he wouldn't have extended Buckley's contract for another year or two.

It's possible, I suppose, but would you be putting the 2023 Premiership Cup on it?

Ultimately, the argy-bargy of 2021 via the EGM group and others including Browne, Carp, Roberts, Tuddy, Galbally, the 2000+ fans who signed the petition, one of the coterie groups (who needed to remain silent as a part of their charter) and many on the online fan forums like here, were all pushing for the same assurance that we were going to flush out the last of the autocratic decisions made at the Club, that we got a vote and that we were going to get the level of professionalism from top to bottom that we deserve. And I think we've achieved that and we're now in an obvious "Post-Ed Collingwood", which I don't think would have happened with the same clarity if the aforementioned just sat on their hands and said and did nothing.

But we're all Side by Side now and were the mother*en' 2023 Premiers!!!!!

You'd need to get the timeline right here, 76ers!

When the EGM push came into play, probably the primary burning issue that fans had was that the last 7 or so or Eddie's years was an autocratic train wreck.

There was a plethora of individual * ups, such as the salary cap breach, fire sale, the Grundy contract that was taken out of the hands of the footy department (as stated by Buckley), the Gubby Allen appointment, treatment of Balmey, the appointment of a player manager who had no list and salary cap management experience, the continuation of the Bill Davoren fitness years by appointing his assistant Kevin White, recruiting Beams back in at $800K pa to watch him fingerpaint, the Goodes gaffe, other general gaffes, the final Do Better Report gaffe and the fact that most of our black fella ex-players didn't want anything to do with us. Not to mention us going backwards on the ladder every year under Buckley save for the year that we almost fluked one. And I know I'm forgetting s**t here, it was a substantially *en terrible time!

So, when Holgate appointed Korda from within and got the ineligible Neil Wilson in, it felt a bit more of the same Eddie McGuire model to many members. The President, two lieutenants, a couple of generally pleasant ex-players and some token types on the side, with no actual election and to even take immense pride in there being no election.

But those fans who were sceptical and even Jeff Browne gave some rope to see if they'd actually changed. But when we had a finals quality list careering dangerously towards to a wooden spoon, the Bridie affair was a pill to big to swallow! The due diligence of the post-Eddie era that we all kinda demanded was not evident whatsoever! Nobody checked to see if she even supported Collingwood, stated things against us in the past, her social media outlets, or if she was a member for the minimum period of time. Her goals coming into the club were to do with the women's side of things and charity work, but had zero things to say that side of our business without which nothing else exists.

At this point the EGM push started and over 2000 signatures were obtained, despite the fact that the games in Vic were stopped after just one round of collections due to the Rona. Fair to say that it was at this point the rocket was placed firmly up the arse of the previous board.

Buckley's dismissal wasn't even on the agenda at this point.

Before they finally showed due diligence in searching for a coach and getting the likes of Luke Ball in to provide a contemporary player's perspective.

Long before the appointment of McCrae and Co.

And long before they showed due diligence in the stellar appointment of Jarrod Wade.

Making a claim that this thoroughness would have happened anyway without the EGM push and Browne pressure is a stretch based on their previous history. It's like someone stating that had Eddie had had his 2021 'Lap of Honour' without the 'Do Better Report' gaffe, that he wouldn't have extended Buckley's contract for another year or two.

It's possible, I suppose, but would you be putting the 2023 Premiership Cup on it?

Ultimately, the argy-bargy of 2021 via the EGM group and others including Browne, Carp, Roberts, Tuddy, Galbally, the 2000+ fans who signed the petition, one of the coterie groups (who needed to remain silent as a part of their charter) and many on the online fan forums like here, were all pushing for the same assurance that we were going to flush out the last of the autocratic decisions made at the Club, that we got a vote and that we were going to get the level of professionalism from top to bottom that we deserve. And I think we've achieved that and we're now in an obvious "Post-Ed Collingwood", which I don't think would have happened with the same clarity if the aforementioned just sat on their hands and said and did nothing.

But we're all Side by Side now and were the mother*en' 2023 Premiers!!!!!

That’s a lot of words that doesn’t refute my point that if the voting members had known Fly (appointed by Korda’s board) would bring us such success they wouldn’t have given a rats clacker about any of the other stuff.

And the EGM folks had as much to do with Fly’s appointment as the 19th man has over a win - yeah, they’re loud and make a noise in the stands, but they’re not the ones doing any of the hard work or making the tough calls.

And you can try to taint Korda’s board as somehow being associated with Ed - and yet we still have three of Ed’s board members on Browne’s board? And that’s somehow OK? Again, the world looks a lot different when you’re winning.

The EGM folks were played. They were used to get Browne into the President’s chair. Ask Frances Galbally after a few beers about it some time.

 

[Fat Jesus]

That’s a lot of words that doesn’t refute my point that if the voting members had known Fly (appointed by Korda’s board) would bring us such success they wouldn’t have given a rats clacker about any of the other stuff.

And the EGM folks had as much to do with Fly’s appointment as the 19th man has over a win - yeah, they’re loud and make a noise in the stands, but they’re not the ones doing any of the hard work or making the tough calls.

And you can try to taint Korda’s board as somehow being associated with Ed - and yet we still have three of Ed’s board members on Browne’s board? And that’s somehow OK? Again, the world looks a lot different when you’re winning.

The EGM folks were played. They were used to get Browne into the President’s chair. Ask Frances Galbally after a few beers about it some time.

Browne is no control freak as was Ed.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Browne is no control freak as was Ed.

Not disputing that Ed had to go, but he had already gone when all this was going down.