Crowds in 2006 - AFL vs NRL

[brycey]

Total Sydney attendance some 10,000 fewer than the single game attendance when then ladder proppers Richmond 1-3 played carlton 1-3 at the time last friday!!!

I repeat there is simply no comparison between one of the biggest drawing leagues in world sport and a stagnant RL league which cannot give away tix to see one of its oldest clubs The Roosters. PLEASE stop even entertaining the notion that there is any comparison.

Legitimate AFL comparison is with previous years not some half deserted little rugby league since, lets face it, if there was any real comparison and our attendances were anything like theirs we would be in big trouble.

You cannot expect to have 9 Sydney clubs to match 1 club in a different league.

I'm not going to compare AFL to NRL outside of NSW or QLD, because its a battle I cant win. But our strongholds are untouchable, and even on a poor weekend like last weekend with 3 matches, especially since 2 of the 3 matches were contested against poor performing teams.

Try as you may, RL is #1 in QLD and NSW.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

At least the NRL keep some of their original home grounds. I like that.

9 Teams out of 2 Stadiums...thats the problem with 9 Clubs in Melbourne

Agree, it would be great if there were a few more grounds around Melbourne and that games that only draw crowds of 30,000 were played at Optus (MCCC SOMETHING) instead of the G therefore increasing the atmosphere.

 

[Jimthegreat]

gee it s me when people make judgements about Sydney and QLD. have you ever lived in either state people ?

Aussie rules has made some great progress in the last 10 years, but don't get carried away, rugby league has always been and always will be #1.

I have and your right about that one. Even though the RL in Sydney is not followed with anywhere near the same passion as AFL in Melbourne, despite the good market share and crowd figures AFL has developed in the northern states, RL is certainly no.1 there.

 

[Jimthegreat]

You cannot expect to have 9 Sydney clubs to match 1 club in a different league.

I'm not going to compare AFL to NRL outside of NSW or QLD, because its a battle I cant win. But our strongholds are untouchable, and even on a poor weekend like last weekend with 3 matches, especially since 2 of the 3 matches were contested against poor performing teams.

Try as you may, RL is #1 in QLD and NSW.

It's a worry when all the RL games combined in Sydney struggle to match those of one AFL game but RL is no.1 in it's own stronghold, no doubt.

 

[Jimthegreat]

you mean the variety of a ruck and maul??

so.. any ideas whats happening under a ruck and maul when you're sitting in the stand or watching it on tv?

Alot more enjoyable from the layman's view than RL. Don't particularly care what happens under there, to me RU flows alot better hence I enjoy watching it alot more. Don't wish to get into the technicalities. RL, from where I sit, is generally, even allowing for the occasional individual highlights, one-dimensional and predictable.

 

[fishmonger]

It's a worry when all the RL games combined in Sydney struggle to match those of one AFL game but RL is no.1 in it's own stronghold, no doubt.

don't forget that only 15 years ago the Swans were struggling to get half the average rugby league crowd in Sydney.

It has taken the one-city team over 20 years to get 2 grand final appearances and get any recognition whatsoever.

For any AFL head in melbourne to think rugby league is in trouble you must be more than mildly ******ed.

 

[Jimthegreat]

don't forget that only 15 years ago the Swans were struggling to get half the average rugby league crowd in Sydney.

It has taken the one-city team over 20 years to get 2 grand final appearances and get any recognition whatsoever.

For any AFL head in melbourne to think rugby league is in trouble you must be more than mildly ******ed.

20 years or not, that shouldn't happen at all in RL territory. I'm guessing the Swans will always do better than the Storm here, who have already won a flag and are always very competitive.

They've been getting big crowds at the SCG since the mid-90's. Got some really huge crowds in the mid 80's as well although admittedly Dr.Edlestein helped them along a bit with a few freebies. So I think they've been at least reasonably well-recognised for a while. I don't think and AFL head really gives that much of a sh1t what state RL is in. Think they're pretty happy with the way their own backyard is functioning.

 

[catters05]

The little suburban grounds are nice to keep catters but frankly AFL grew out of them decades ago. it is OK having say the RL Panthers at Penrith stadium or the Wests at Leichardt since they rarely need bigger but imagine modern day Collingwood stuck in Vic park when they can average 50,000 a game !! Imagine a resurgent (hopefully) Richo stuck in Punt Road. Next weeks ruvalry round Ess v Richo which will draw 70,000 stuck at windy bottom? No way.

You can have quaint or you can have big.

Obviously you will not move Collingwood/Richmond from MCG or Essendon/Carlton from Telstra Dome, but I think some of the smaller games especially against Interstate clubs could be played at some home grounds.

Of course the grounds need work, but how would the Kangas be going if they could fill a 25K-30K all seater. I think they would be doing pretty well.

The AFL should be preparing for post 2020, when they own Telstra Dome, they need to use this as an Investment not just a Footy Ground.

 

[fishmonger]

20 years or not, that shouldn't happen at all in RL territory. I'm guessing the Swans will always do better than the Storm here, who have already won a flag and are always very competitive.

They've been getting big crowds at the SCG since the mid-90's. Got some really huge crowds in the mid 80's as well although admittedly Dr.Edlestein helped them along a bit with a few freebies. So I think they've been at least reasonably well-recognised for a while. I don't think and AFL head really gives that much of a sh1t what state RL is in. Think they're pretty happy with the way their own backyard is functioning.

<sigh> some ers have such short memories ...

R16 Brisbane Bears S.C.G. 5,728 10-Jul-1994
R20 Fitzroy S.C.G. 6,513 07-Aug-1994
R21 Carlton S.C.G 9,622 14-Aug-1994
R24 Melbourne S.C.G 8,336 04-Sep-1994

that's because they haven't been losing too badly since the mid 1990s.
rest assured, if the Swans went back to the bottom of the ladder, this would definately happen again.
media attention is the key, and they only get it if they are winning.

The Storm won their flag too early. They never earned the hearts, minds and respect of the public in Victoria like the battling Swans. They have also not been on the brink of folding in their history as often as the Swans have been in Sydney.

 

[finders]

20 years or not, that shouldn't happen at all in RL territory. I'm guessing the Swans will always do better than the Storm here, who have already won a flag and are always very competitive.

They've been getting big crowds at the SCG since the mid-90's. Got some really huge crowds in the mid 80's as well although admittedly Dr.Edlestein helped them along a bit with a few freebies. So I think they've been at least reasonably well-recognised for a while. I don't think and AFL head really gives that much of a sh1t what state RL is in. Think they're pretty happy with the way their own backyard is functioning.

Hey Goose! The Swans didnt win a premiership in the begining like the Storm did.
RL is dead in the water in Melbourne, there is no worthwhile junior or club infrastructure unlike Sydney where a local Australian Football comp has played for over 100 years.
Apart from the above the general public including the tens of thousands of NSW and QLD expats living in Melbourne just cant be bothered to go to Storm matches.

 

[Rob]

<sigh> some ers have such short memories ...

R16 Brisbane Bears S.C.G. 5,728 10-Jul-1994
R20 Fitzroy S.C.G. 6,513 07-Aug-1994
R21 Carlton S.C.G 9,622 14-Aug-1994
R24 Melbourne S.C.G 8,336 04-Sep-1994

that's because they haven't been losing too badly since the mid 1990s.
rest assured, if the Swans went back to the bottom of the ladder, this would definately happen again.
media attention is the key, and they only get it if they are winning.

They weren't just at the bottom, they were consistently at the bottom, (at one stage losing 26 in a row) and no real signs of improvement. Half the clubs in the league at the moment would draw crowds like that if in their situation at that time.
And even those crowds would have been pretty common in rugby league in Sydney anyway. In 1994, Balmain averaged 7,348 and Western Suburbs averaged 6,836.

 

[Hoops]

A comparison can be made between the Swans first 8 seasons (1982 - 1989) in Sydney and The Storms in Melbourne (1998-2005), I suspect the population for these cities at these times were similar,

Swans (82-89)
Average crowd = 15,384
overall winning %age = 49%

Storm (98-05)
Average Crowd = 11,263 (includes 3 finals in Melbourne)
overall winning %age = 56%

As can be seen despite the Storms far superior winning percentage which includes a GF in only thier 2nd year of existance. The Swans averaged 37% more people.

 

[exe ex machina]

AR has since the 1800's been played and supported and had some sort of infrastructure that spread the entire breadth of the Australian continent. Every nook and cranny there's some sort of small to large scale AR infrastructure.

RL has leagues and infrastructures most parts of Australia, but in comparison to AR's scope/breadth, it is significantly less.

This is the main reason that AR has always been more popular than RL. Why there's a strong enough support in RL heartland's whereas RL does not have the same support in AR heartlands.

Unless something drastic happens with the management of the AFL and other such things, that severely impacts on the appeal of the game, then RL will always be fighting an uphill battle for more appeal.

It's just a pecking order, nothing personal intended to offend anyone's love for the game of RL. Just the way it is. Like Baseball has to always understand it is #2 as a bat-ball game in Australia to Cricket.

 

[littleduck]

AR has since the 1800's been played and supported and had some sort of infrastructure that spread the entire breadth of the Australian continent. Every nook and cranny there's some sort of small to large scale AR infrastructure.

RL has leagues and infrastructures most parts of Australia, but in comparison to AR's scope/breadth, it is significantly less.

This is the main reason that AR has always been more popular than RL. Why there's a strong enough support in RL heartland's whereas RL does not have the same support in AR heartlands.

Unless something drastic happens with the management of the AFL and other such things, that severely impacts on the appeal of the game, then RL will always be fighting an uphill battle for more appeal.

It's just a pecking order, nothing personal intended to offend anyone's love for the game of RL. Just the way it is. Like Baseball has to always understand it is #2 as a bat-ball game in Australia to Cricket.

RL is #1 overall in its key market, the East Coast of Australia and New Zealand, with plenty of growth potential within those key markets in NZ and VIC. RL no longer regards Sth Aust and West Aust as priority expansion areas. AFL is #1 overall nationally in Australia.

thats the way it is...

 

[FuManchu]

RL is #1 overall in its key market, the East Coast of Australia and New Zealand, with plenty of growth potential within those key markets in NZ and VIC. RL no longer regards Sth Aust and West Aust as priority expansion areas. AFL is #1 overall nationally in Australia.

thats the way it is...

the reason there is plenty of growth potential is because no-one goes to the games as is. So, of course there is plenty of growth potential, now if only the NRL could get people to go to the bloody games!!!!!!

 

[Jimthegreat]

<sigh> some ers have such short memories ...

R16 Brisbane Bears S.C.G. 5,728 10-Jul-1994
R20 Fitzroy S.C.G. 6,513 07-Aug-1994
R21 Carlton S.C.G 9,622 14-Aug-1994
R24 Melbourne S.C.G 8,336 04-Sep-1994

that's because they haven't been losing too badly since the mid 1990s.
rest assured, if the Swans went back to the bottom of the ladder, this would definately happen again.
media attention is the key, and they only get it if they are winning.

The Storm won their flag too early. They never earned the hearts, minds and respect of the public in Victoria like the battling Swans. They have also not been on the brink of folding in their history as often as the Swans have been in Sydney.

You've picked 4 games out of 20 years, and all in one year. You are so desperate to validate a very poor argument. Other's would quit while they're behind.

Sadly I was at the Carlton game in 1994 thinking we would massacre them......and lost. The next year the same two sides drew 25,000.......and we lost again, by 72 points, one of only two losses we had that year!!

 

[Jimthegreat]

Hey Goose! The Swans didnt win a premiership in the begining like the Storm did.
RL is dead in the water in Melbourne, there is no worthwhile junior or club infrastructure unlike Sydney where a local Australian Football comp has played for over 100 years.
Apart from the above the general public including the tens of thousands of NSW and QLD expats living in Melbourne just cant be bothered to go to Storm matches.

Before you go calling anyone a goose, actually try to read the bloody thing properly, I am agreeing with your thoughts. Maybe I should have used "even though" rather than "who" with regards to the Storm flag, might have made it clearer but I think it was surely pretty clear anyway. Please take time to read this and my "1000" other posts on this subject properly. I suggest you become literate and learn to f@cking read and comprehend.

I hope there's an apology for the "goose" slur given it was you're misunderstanding of the post.

 

[Jimthegreat]

RL is #1 overall in its key market, the East Coast of Australia and New Zealand, with plenty of growth potential within those key markets in NZ and VIC. RL no longer regards Sth Aust and West Aust as priority expansion areas. AFL is #1 overall nationally in Australia.

thats the way it is...

Don't use the stupid East coast argument, especially calling it a key market, as RL in Victoria, as big as that state is, doesn't rate a "blimp". It rationalisation in the extreme and plainly idiotic justification for an unpopular sport on a national basis. And on to an even more stupid argument, everyone with half an ounce of intelligence knows Rubgy Union is way bigger in NZ then RL. RU in NZ is like AFL here. Does anyone in NZ really care about RL. You too should give up while you're behind as this argiuemnt you make here makes you sound like a f@cking idiot..

 

[exe ex machina]

Further on the point of RU and RL....AR is always going to be #1. Soccer, may grow to being #2 some day, due to the enormous popularity of Soccer around the world and in migrant Australians. Not that I like Soccer, but it has the biggest potential of all the football codes.

I see AR and Soccer going head to head eventually, the main two codes fighting each other. So, I see RU and RL being the ones fighting between each other for bigger share of what's left of the pie.

I think RU has a distinct advantage over RL purely on the international and Super 14's scene. While RL is a working class sport and RU is traditionally a private school thing, I still think several factors will eventually make RL obsolete in Australia.

1. Super 14's/International scene.
2. More money in RU than RL globally.
3. Larger fanbase globally for RU than RL.
4. World Cup of Rugby (with increasing participant teams and increasing standard of participating teams compared to RL's growth here), will gain even bigger repute as a "world cup" type event.
5. More attractive, free-flowing game to follow.
6. The system of rules in place for RU are far superior than RL's. RL is lurching towards banality with all the rule changes that have happened since the 60's. RU's main core of rules, envisioned in the maul-unlimited-tackle system which promotes attacking creative football a lot more than RL's core system now.
7. The similarity of both codes means that eventually players/talent will funnel into the RU code over decades piecemeal. Bigger stage, truer international representation, more money. Same skill levels will mean eventually RU can swallow up RL (not now, not yet, but eventually).
8. NZ and SA being predominantly RU heartlands that will never change.
9. The demise of RL international teams and the years and years of progress needed for new markets like Russia, USA, etc...who all, in the meantime, also field RU teams which are already leaps ahead of the RL development in those nations RL is trying to expand to.

So, at some stage years from now, AR, Soccer and RU will all take a fairly equal slice of the Australian football market. With RL eventually becoming abandoned. People at the game, tv rights, etc.

Most of these points are purely my opinion, and personal taste, but there's a degree of truth in them too. I'm not an expert or a seer, but I just can't see or ultimately validate how RL can outgrow AR, Soccer, RU in Australia.

 

[littleduck]

the reason there is plenty of growth potential is because no-one goes to the games as is. So, of course there is plenty of growth potential, now if only the NRL could get people to go to the bloody games!!!!!!

upward growth in average and aggregate crowds year in year out suggests they are !!!!!!

 

[littleduck]

You've picked 4 games out of 20 years, and all in one year. You are so desperate to validate a very poor argument. Other's would quit while they're behind.

Sadly I was at the Carlton game in 1994 thinking we would massacre them......and lost. The next year the same two sides drew 25,000.......and we lost again, by 72 points, one of only two losses we had that year!!

the swans relocated in 1982 right????

3 consecutive years in the early 90s average swans crowds were below 10,000.

that means 10 years after their expansion they were struggling to reach 5 figures.

there are lots of similarities between the storm and the swans.

 

[littleduck]

Don't use the stupid East coast argument, especially calling it a key market, as RL in Victoria, as big as that state is, doesn't rate a "blimp". It rationalisation in the extreme and plainly idiotic justification for an unpopular sport on a national basis. And on to an even more stupid argument, everyone with half an ounce of intelligence knows Rubgy Union is way bigger in NZ then RL. RU in NZ is like AFL here. Does anyone in NZ really care about RL. You too should give up while you're behind as this argiuemnt you make here makes you sound like a f@cking idiot..

RL is market leader overall across its key markets of NSW QLD VIC NZ, even if it isnt market leader in 2 of the 4 markets listed. RL is going pretty well I would say...

AFL is market leader across its key markets of VIC SA WA NSW QLD, even if it isnt market leader in 2 of the 5 markets listed. AFL is going pretty well I would say...

 

[Hoops]

the swans relocated in 1982 right????

3 consecutive years in the early 90s average swans crowds were below 10,000.

that means 10 years after their expansion they were struggling to reach 5 figures.

there are lots of similarities between the storm and the swans.

there is no similarities

sub 10,000 crowd average years with winning percentage

STORM
2002 - 40%
2003 - 63%
2004 - 54%
2005 - 54%


SWANS
1990 - 23%
1992 - 16%
1993 - 5%
1994 - 18%

as you can see the Swans were cleary the worst side in the league in the early 90's, and the Storm has been one of the best for the last 4 years.
Swans won less games over those four years than what the Storm did in 2003

 

[exe ex machina]

A note should also be made that comparing the Swans early 80's emergence and the Storm's late 90's emergence are two different eras in the Australian sporting consciousness.

In the early 80's for AR to expand to Sydney met with a lot of resistance in Sydney. Australian sport had yet to fully embrace the concept of a National Competition in any code.

While in the late 90's, RL could make inroads into the Melbourne market thanks to the efforts of the Swans/AR in establishing a National Code as the future direction of football codes in Australia.

There was always going to be literal resistance in Sydney, at the time, over an AR team in Sydney. At the time, there was much bad blood between the codes and their supporter base. Worse than now.

While Melbourne people and media never really felt threatened by the Melbourne Storm in the 90's. Just never considered it a threat to the AR game. Considered they would struggle for support and fans, but felt there was a place for RL all the same, as small as it would be.


Therefore, the Swans were always going to take many more years to gain a strong steady following, but that it would rise in time, which it has. Whereas, expectations for the Storm, in a broadened and accepting National concept for sport, were that they would always have to live with a sub-10,000 to sub-20,000 (maximum) existence.

 

[fishmonger]

You've picked 4 games out of 20 years, and all in one year. You are so desperate to validate a very poor argument. Other's would quit while they're behind.

Sadly I was at the Carlton game in 1994 thinking we would massacre them......and lost. The next year the same two sides drew 25,000.......and we lost again, by 72 points, one of only two losses we had that year!!

Mate you give up.
I was making a reasonably objective comparison between the Swans and the Storm.

You said mid 1990s, so I proved you otherwise.

Want more proof ?

R2 Melbourne S.C.G. 8131 08-Apr-1984
R18 Nth Melbourne S.C.G. 8538 05-Aug-1984
R20 Hawthorn S.C.G. 8276 19-Aug-1984
R4 Hawthorn S.C.G. 7860 21-Apr-1985
R6 Footscray S.C.G. 9537 05-May-1985
R12 St Kilda S.C.G. 7811 16-Jun-1985
R13 Richmond S.C.G. 9504 23-Jun-1985
R19 Nth Melbourne S.C.G. 9215 11-Aug-1985
R21 Melbourne S.C.G. 7942 25-Aug-1985
R2 St Kilda S.C.G. 9000 10-Apr-1988
R5 Melbourne S.C.G. 9269 01-May-1988
R14 Richmond S.C.G. 8008 01-Jul-1988
R1 Richmond S.C.G. 8611 02-Apr-1989
R15 Footscray S.C.G. 8010 16-Jul-1989
R17 Brisbane Bears S.C.G. 7437 30-Jul-1989
R8 Geelong S.C.G. 8960 18-May-1990
R12 Fitzroy S.C.G. 6132 17-Jun-1990
R18 West Coast S.C.G. 6097 05-Aug-1990
R20 Brisbane Bears S.C.G. 5272 17-Aug-1990
R22 Richmond S.C.G. 6996 01-Sep-1990
R19 Richmond S.C.G. 9276 28-Jul-1991
R23 Fitzroy S.C.G. 8553 23-Aug-1991
R2 West Coast S.C.G. 9235 29-Mar-1992
R4 Footscray S.C.G. 8309 12-Apr-1992
R6 Nth Melbourne S.C.G. 9226 24-Apr-1992
R8 Brisbane Bears S.C.G. 7425 08-May-1992
R16 Fitzroy S.C.G. 7329 05-Jul-1992
R22 Melbourne S.C.G. 7850 16-Aug-1992
R24 Richmond S.C.G. 7466 28-Aug-1992
R4 Essendon S.C.G. 9023 18-Apr-1993
R7 Carlton S.C.G. 9214 09-May-1993
R9 Geelong S.C.G. 9594 23-May-1993
R11 West Coast S.C.G. 8794 13-Jun-1993
R13 Melbourne S.C.G. 8250 27-Jun-1993
R18 St Kilda S.C.G. 9756 01-Aug-1993
R20 Fitzroy S.C.G. 8214 13-Aug-1993
R21 Nth Melbourne S.C.G. 8180 22-Aug-1993
R4 Richmond S.C.G. 9727 15-Apr-1994
R7 St Kilda S.C.G. 9295 08-May-1994
R16 Brisbane Bears S.C.G. 5728 10-Jul-1994
R20 Fitzroy S.C.G. 6513 07-Aug-1994
R21 Carlton S.C.G. 9622 14-Aug-1994
R24 Melbourne S.C.G. 8336 04-Sep-1994
R18 Brisbane Bears S.C.G. 8157 06-Aug-1995

Your short term memory is completely ed.

These crowds look very Storm like to me. There are many more that got only just over 10,000.

The reason AFL crowds in Sydney have been up since 1995 is because the Swans have been winning.