Crows lack enforcers.

[WALL-e]

and Sellar has the haircut of an enforcer

Do you remember the Essendon Final of 09 (that was fun), Edwards was in a scuffle with someone and Jimmy just ran the pack, no push, just ran into the two players.

Of course his head then got enforced with a rogue knee, but his desire to mix it up was good.

 

[jenny61_99]

Jenny - I'll give you the Carlton game in the wet that Roo won for us back in early noughties. He won that game for us not just with skill and kicking goals but by his physical presence and making it felt.

I'll have to watch it again, but my recollection is that his wet ball handling skills were head and shoulders above everyone else and that's what won us the game. Roo also is a man that exuded toughness (and perhaps Danger takes that mantle now?) so he wasn't the type that had to push and shove. He just had to stand.

Also - Craigy loves to push the 19th man. He feels the crowd has a massive influence on us winning games at footy park. You might recall last year I was referring to the crowd involvement being a 2-way street.. we need to be inspired and 'feel' the players are switched on and giving theri best to be able to respond in crowd to further lift them to greater heroics. If you are willing to accept that.. are you willing to accept that more flag flying would get the crowd right into the game and behind our boys even more?

For mine we've seen enough comments in this thread to indicate it would have a tangible impact on crowd response to on-field effort which, according to Craigy, is more of what the club want and helps them win games.

Clearly it would get the crowd more involved. But if that's the case, you could only be tough at home - wouldn't want the opposition crowd to get gee'd up! Much is said about "home ground advantage" - some equate it to a 4 goal advantage. Of course this is constantly disproved by EVERY team when they lose at home. I've been to a few games where the crowd have seemingly lifted the players - and I've been to a few games (this year against Brisbane at the Gabba a good example) where the "friendly" crowd was far out-weighed by the Lions home crowd and yet our boys were still able to win.

I can understand the theory behind the 19th man... but for me it's all a bit "warm fuzzy" type stuff. However, it was absolutely necessary to introduce it at AAMI stadium because the home crowds showed less life than a grave yard at times.

I'm still not convinced a "bit of biff" will help us win a game over say, better play.

 

[Slippery Pete]

There's something about Jenny saying "wet ball handling skills" that makes me need to go have a shower. I just feel all dirty.

 

[Allefgib]

I'll have to watch it again, but my recollection is that his wet ball handling skills were head and shoulders above everyone else and that's what won us the game. Roo also is a man that exuded toughness (and perhaps Danger takes that mantle now?) so he wasn't the type that had to push and shove. He just had to stand. .

Come on jenny.... if he just stood and never asserted himself, verbally or physically, he would have been more like Goody. He would have stood up and been respected but hardly intimidating. His history of flying the flag and being willing to put his body in HARD is what made players intimidated and concious of him when he 'stood'.

Go watch the game again - my memory is he really asserted himself phyiscally across CHF including some really solid, meaty wet slaps of his body against Carlton players.

Let's be careful we don't start arguing semnatics (again) over you mean push and shove and I mean the broader 'enforcing/flying the flag' we lack. A push and shove at the right times is an appropriate part of the dynamic I want to see us build more into our team - but its more an outcome of an attitude than a specific thing I want us to start doing.

Clearly it would get the crowd more involved. But if that's the case, you could only be tough at home - wouldn't want the opposition crowd to get gee'd up! Much is said about "home ground advantage" - some equate it to a 4 goal advantage. Of course this is constantly disproved by EVERY team when they lose at home. I've been to a few games where the crowd have seemingly lifted the players - and I've been to a few games (this year against Brisbane at the Gabba a good example) where the "friendly" crowd was far out-weighed by the Lions home crowd and yet our boys were still able to win.

I can understand the theory behind the 19th man... but for me it's all a bit "warm fuzzy" type stuff. However, it was absolutely necessary to introduce it at AAMI stadium because the home crowds showed less life than a grave yard at times.

I'm still not convinced a "bit of biff" will help us win a game over say, better play.

But what if we are already playing at our 'peak' and continually absorb physical pressure from our opponenets without making a stand? You can just 'play better' or we would!!!

As per my Bernie example.. go look when he is playing at his peak. It's the games where he is phyiscally challenged and responds with arrogance and a bit of verbal shenanigans. His attitude to making a stand for himself, including the arrogance, goes hand in hand with his performance. Surely you have seen that?

Sure there are players who thrive being the silent achievers and not getting caught up in shenanigans. Typically because with the correct team balance there is someone else who can do it for them!

We seem to lack a desire for anyone to fill that role and I personally think we can improve our ability to win games if we had a bit more of it. Especially finals games.

 

[icrow32]

I'll have to watch it again, but my recollection is that his wet ball handling skills were head and shoulders above everyone else and that's what won us the game. Roo also is a man that exuded toughness (and perhaps Danger takes that mantle now?) so he wasn't the type that had to push and shove. He just had to stand.



Clearly it would get the crowd more involved. But if that's the case, you could only be tough at home - wouldn't want the opposition crowd to get gee'd up! Much is said about "home ground advantage" - some equate it to a 4 goal advantage. Of course this is constantly disproved by EVERY team when they lose at home. I've been to a few games where the crowd have seemingly lifted the players - and I've been to a few games (this year against Brisbane at the Gabba a good example) where the "friendly" crowd was far out-weighed by the Lions home crowd and yet our boys were still able to win.

I can understand the theory behind the 19th man... but for me it's all a bit "warm fuzzy" type stuff. However, it was absolutely necessary to introduce it at AAMI stadium because the home crowds showed less life than a grave yard at times.

I'm still not convinced a "bit of biff" will help us win a game over say, better play.

For goodness sake, no one is talking about a "bit of biff", all we want is a physical presence out on the field and for players to stand up for each other when the need arises (for example more than 1 player to stick up for Danger when he has his head rammed into the ground). NC has created a team of soft, passionless choir boys that couldn't tackle, bump or niggle their own granmothers

 

[icrow32]

Come on jenny.... if he just stood and never asserted himself, verbally or physically, he would have been more like Goody. He would have stood up and been respected but hardly intimidating. His history of flying the flag and being willing to put his body in HARD is what made players intimidated and concious of him when he 'stood'.

Go watch the game again - my memory is he really asserted himself phyiscally across CHF including some really solid, meaty wet slaps of his body against Carlton players.

Let's be careful we don't start arguing semnatics (again) over you mean push and shove and I mean the broader 'enforcing/flying the flag' we lack. A push and shove at the right times is an appropriate part of the dynamic I want to see us build more into our team - but its more an outcome of an attitude than a specific thing I want us to start doing.


quote]


Go and ask Lance Whitnall how physical Roo was, it won us the game in the first 5 mins, it was fair too.

 

[Allefgib]

Come on jenny.... if he just stood and never asserted himself, verbally or physically, he would have been more like Goody. He would have stood up and been respected but hardly intimidating. His history of flying the flag and being willing to put his body in HARD is what made players intimidated and concious of him when he 'stood'.

Go watch the game again - my memory is he really asserted himself phyiscally across CHF including some really solid, meaty wet slaps of his body against Carlton players.

Let's be careful we don't start arguing semnatics (again) over you mean push and shove and I mean the broader 'enforcing/flying the flag' we lack. A push and shove at the right times is an appropriate part of the dynamic I want to see us build more into our team - but its more an outcome of an attitude than a specific thing I want us to start doing.


quote]


Go and ask Lance Whitnall how physical Roo was, it won us the game in the first 5 mins, it was fair too.

yeah thats one of the hits I remember - and explains the memory of the big meaty wet 'slap'

 

[Vader]

There's no doubt that Roo's physicality played a large role in us winning that game. The big question is how many weeks he would have been suspended for as a result of that game, if it were played under the 2010/2011 rule interpretations? My guess is that we wouldn't have seen him again for a month or more.

Therein lies the problem..

 

[SydCrow]

There's no doubt that Roo's physicality played a large role in us winning that game. The big question is how many weeks he would have been suspended for as a result of that game, if it were played under the 2010/2011 rule interpretations? My guess is that we wouldn't have seen him again for a month or more.

Therein lies the problem..

He also missed the 2005 QF due to suspension after a head high bump. If he hadn't tried to hurt with the elbow maybe we would have beaten Stain Kilda the next week.

Nowadays even a jumper punch gets weeks. Nothing wrong with a push and shove at the right time as long as it doesn't distract from the main game.

 

[Allefgib]

There's no doubt that Roo's physicality played a large role in us winning that game. The big question is how many weeks he would have been suspended for as a result of that game, if it were played under the 2010/2011 rule interpretations? My guess is that we wouldn't have seen him again for a month or more.

Therein lies the problem..

Sure, specific 'hits' are now issues if you implement them.

But the attitude to 'enforce' is something we lack and something that can give you an edge in a game of football.

An edge we don't often seem to seek. An edge we don't seem to desire to take away from our opponents often enough.

Take paddy's attack on a contest and make it a little more self aware of his ability to impact the opposition and we'll be on a game-winning edge IMO. 1. it might lengthen his career anyway! 2. It will make the opposition situp and take notice whenever he is around.

 

[taylor_walker_13]

For goodness sake, no one is talking about a "bit of biff", all we want is a physical presence out on the field and for players to stand up for each other when the need arises (for example more than 1 player to stick up for Danger when he has his head rammed into the ground). NC has created a team of soft, passionless choir boys that couldn't tackle, bump or niggle their own granmothers

BINGO, no toughness no hardness no pressure, tackling has gone out the window, all to be the fittest bunch of 'nancy boys' in the AFL with a 'nancy boy' captain to boot (please read this Nathan because your as weak as water and I could knock you over) with a nice club song...............complete opposite of a football club thats for sure............its very concerning..........the writing is on the wall, has been for years but clearly only some of us are astute enough to read it the rest stick their fingers in their ears and go 'lalalalalala Im not listening'

 

[Crow-mo]

didn't brisbane win 3 flags in small part to the physicality and intimidation laid forth by the scott bros,

didn't Geelong win 2, behind the crash & bang of max rooke and mooney?

Collingwood are hard at the man all ove the ground. their rotations mean they hit harder in the tackle.

what is there even to dispute? physical teams win in finals situations.

 

[Coopers]

Maxwell?

Enforcer, not sniper.

 

[jenny61_99]

There's something about Jenny saying "wet ball handling skills" that makes me need to go have a shower. I just feel all dirty.

- Is there a better way to put it that doesn't sound dirty??

 

[jenny61_99]

Come on jenny.... if he just stood and never asserted himself, verbally or physically, he would have been more like Goody. He would have stood up and been respected but hardly intimidating. His history of flying the flag and being willing to put his body in HARD is what made players intimidated and concious of him when he 'stood'.

Go watch the game again - my memory is he really asserted himself phyiscally across CHF including some really solid, meaty wet slaps of his body against Carlton players.

Let's be careful we don't start arguing semnatics (again) over you mean push and shove and I mean the broader 'enforcing/flying the flag' we lack. A push and shove at the right times is an appropriate part of the dynamic I want to see us build more into our team - but its more an outcome of an attitude than a specific thing I want us to start doing.



But what if we are already playing at our 'peak' and continually absorb physical pressure from our opponenets without making a stand? You can just 'play better' or we would!!!

As per my Bernie example.. go look when he is playing at his peak. It's the games where he is phyiscally challenged and responds with arrogance and a bit of verbal shenanigans. His attitude to making a stand for himself, including the arrogance, goes hand in hand with his performance. Surely you have seen that?

Sure there are players who thrive being the silent achievers and not getting caught up in shenanigans. Typically because with the correct team balance there is someone else who can do it for them!

We seem to lack a desire for anyone to fill that role and I personally think we can improve our ability to win games if we had a bit more of it. Especially finals games.

You put forward some compelling arguments. I will go and have another look at that Carlton game (it will be nicer second time around). I think the overall issue is too masculine for me to fully grasp? Whilst CM asserts Brisbane, Geelong and Collingwood have all won their flags due to their physicality, I think there's perhaps more to it than just that. Their age and experience profiles all match pretty much as well (although Collingwood certainly had some younger players). I wonder once our boys all reach that age and experience level together whether the physicality comes into play? Were Brisbane and Geelong known for their physicality prior to their golden years?

I think our current crop of players certainly have the potential to lift our profile in this regard. And unlike TW13, I don't believe Craig would coach it out of them. I just think our leaders in recent years (think Goodwin, McLeod, Burton, Edwards) all played a different brand of footy to Roo. They went about their game on a whole different level. But now, with the changing of the guard, I think we'll see a change.

 

[SydCrow]

didn't brisbane win 3 flags in small part to the physicality and intimidation laid forth by the scott bros,

and lost a 4th with Alastair Lynch throwing haymakers in the goal square

 

[Crow-mo]

and lost a 4th with Alastair Lynch throwing haymakers in the goal square

aside from that example being untrue, I'd still take that myself.

they lost 2004, 10 minutes into the third qtr, up by about 3 goals, controlling play and Brown has 2 shots in 3-4 min period from 40 out that he bottles. crucial turnover in brisbane goal square inspired by josh carr, they take it en to end kick the goal and momentum changes.

I still blame Jon Brown for the paupers premiership

 

[Allefgib]

Jenny... crow-mo's point isn't, IMO, so much about the experience and size of the players but about the types of players in the side who are encouraged to play a particular type of football.

The scott brothers always played the way they did. So did Voss. Brown was physical the moment he stepped onto the oval as a young player. Hardwick/Picket always did. ****, jarman used to lay out some good bumps back in the day and then give a spray to the likes of mickey martyn with a good dose of arrogance.

That type of attitude and style of play comes very naturally to some players. It's also an attitude that IMO needs to be encouraged and groomed to a degree by the coach.

At present we really seem to lack this in our side (hence the thread title). It doesn't come as bodies mature - its something that is a personality trait to a degree and a coached attitude where it isn't inherent.

Port won their flag with the likes of hardwick/pickett/carr leading the way.
Hawthorn won it with the whole side playing 'unsociable football'.
Geelong had their hard nuts (rooke/mooney etc) and never backed down from a chance to be physical.
Collingwood are hard at it all over the ground as crow-mo pointed out. Maxwell has no issue getting in someones face if the context of the game calls for it.
Sydney had big bad Barry.
Saints have Stevie Baker/Kosi but I think still lack a little of the right stuff - obviously since they haven't won a flag

Where are our players like that today? I think sloane has it in him. I think tex likes to think he has it in him Ivan is spirited. But our boys seem to be tenative about it - like they are encouraged to act as you have indicated - ignore the physicallity that isn't in a direct contest and get on with the game.

Personally I think that's breeding the wrong behaviour and it makes us weaker as a team. Not quite as pathetic as tw13 might make it sound though.

Hell - i got a heck of a laugh last year listening to AA where cornesy told a story about when he played against craigy years back and gave him a bit of a gut punch - craigy responded with two quick chin jabs and asked him if he'd like to go on with it. I want to see THAT kind of attitude (not the action) in our players today. We just don't seem to show it.

 

[Allefgib]

aside from that example being untrue, I'd still take that myself.

they lost 2004, 10 minutes into the third qtr, up by about 3 goals, controlling play and Brown has 2 shots in 3-4 min period from 40 out that he bottles. crucial turnover in brisbane goal square inspired by josh carr, they take it en to end kick the goal and momentum changes.

I still blame Jon Brown for the paupers premiership

win 3 and go down swinging in the 4th... i'd take that any day

I think Jon brown also fired up joshy carr more than anyone wanted - that hit on the chin was amazing.. but Carr just got up and kept on going even more spirited. And that's what Im talking about. Not having the guys to throw the big punches necessarirly but having the guys who don't mind being involved in such situations, take the big hits on the chin and then get straight back in the oppositions face again. Obviously it made brown miss those shots and brought port victory

 

[jenny61_99]

Jenny... crow-mo's point isn't, IMO, so much about the experience and size of the players but about the types of players in the side who are encouraged to play a particular type of football.

The scott brothers always played the way they did. So did Voss. Brown was physical the moment he stepped onto the oval as a young player. Hardwick/Picket always did. ****, jarman used to lay out some good bumps back in the day and then give a spray to the likes of mickey martyn with a good dose of arrogance.

That type of attitude and style of play comes very naturally to some players. It's also an attitude that IMO needs to be encouraged and groomed to a degree by the coach.

At present we really seem to lack this in our side (hence the thread title). It doesn't come as bodies mature - its something that is a personality trait to a degree and a coached attitude where it isn't inherent.

Port won their flag with the likes of hardwick/pickett/carr leading the way.
Hawthorn won it with the whole side playing 'unsociable football'.
Geelong had their hard nuts (rooke/mooney etc) and never backed down from a chance to be physical.
Collingwood are hard at it all over the ground as crow-mo pointed out. Maxwell has no issue getting in someones face if the context of the game calls for it.
Sydney had big bad Barry.
Saints have Stevie Baker/Kosi but I think still lack a little of the right stuff - obviously since they haven't won a flag

Where are our players like that today? I think sloane has it in him. I think tex likes to think he has it in him Ivan is spirited. But our boys seem to be tenative about it - like they are encouraged to act as you have indicated - ignore the physicallity that isn't in a direct contest and get on with the game.

Personally I think that's breeding the wrong behaviour and it makes us weaker as a team. Not quite as pathetic as tw13 might make it sound though.

Hell - i got a heck of a laugh last year listening to AA where cornesy told a story about when he played against craigy years back and gave him a bit of a gut punch - craigy responded with two quick chin jabs and asked him if he'd like to go on with it. I want to see THAT kind of attitude (not the action) in our players today. We just don't seem to show it.

I've seen that side of Craigy too so it surprises me that people think he'd "coach it out of them". You might be right that getting them to focus only on the footy is "breeding them wrong" ... I'm still not convinced, but I'm leaning more that way than I was before.

I agree with Tex, Sloane and Ivarn... but I reckon you could add Vince and Danger to that - and even Dougy and VB - I've seen them both stand up to an opposition player in a game (one I recall clearly at Cararra).

Before, when I asked whether it (aggression) came with time - I meant as their bodies matured - it's a bit hard to be forceful when you weigh less than a lettuce leaf up against a solid, experienced spud.

 

[Allefgib]

I don't agree.

Tough nuts are tough nuts. Even as a 17/18 yo Roo was capable of the stuff we are talking about. Sure, he intimidated people alot more later but its the attitude we are talking about here more than anything IMO.

 

[jenny61_99]

I don't agree.

Tough nuts are tough nuts. Even as a 17/18 yo Roo was capable of the stuff we are talking about. Sure, he intimidated people alot more later but its the attitude we are talking about here more than anything IMO.

But surely you have to have the physicality to start with? I look at Danger and I see Roo. I look at Douglas now and I see someone more capable (and apparently willing) to stand up for himself than he was when he was younger.

 

[Allefgib]

I look at Sloane and see it more inherent than related to his physical stature or maturity.
I look at some like say a Luke Hodge and saw/see the same.

I look at Dougie and feel that yes he has improved in this are to a degree - but he isn't a true 'enforcer'/tough nut that we have been lacking.

If we had more of the guys with the inherent tendencies/capabilties in this area guys like Dougie wouldn't be needing to stand up for himself as much!

 

[jenny61_99]

I look at Sloane and see it more inherent than related to his physical stature or maturity.
I look at some like say a Luke Hodge and saw/see the same.

I look at Dougie and feel that yes he has improved in this are to a degree - but he isn't a true 'enforcer'/tough nut that we have been lacking.

If we had more of the guys with the inherent tendencies/capabilties in this area guys like Dougie wouldn't be needing to stand up for himself as much!

Fair point.

 

[Slippery Pete]

I don't think we were an overly physical side in 97 and 98 - the major difference was in those days we had guys with a healthy dose of arrogance and a smart-ass mouth. Jarman and Nigel Smart spring to mind.

Jarman on Mick Martyn late in the last quarter of the 98 GF was a classic case of something one of our players would never do now. Pushed him over, then ridiculed him. Then walked away and told the umpire all about it.

God I love Darren Jarman.