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Crows v Eagles

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Vince Van Mackay said:
Gotta love what people are writing in this thread just based on listening to the radio hahaah, pretty hilarious.
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Yeah youre right, and its especially hard to get a gauge on how theyre going listening to 5AA, unashamedly biased :p
 
The Crows Truth said:
do you not comprehend the fact that one coaches drafting and trading (especially over a 5 year period) will have a significant residual impact once they have left the club? seriously, you dont seem to get it. :confused: when ayres left he had drafted and traded a collective pile of shit over many years. the vast majority of the best crows players left on the list at the end of his stint were there at the start of his stint.
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blah blah blah... you have a craigy on a poster in your bedroom. fine we get it.


:thumbsdown:Watts, Krueger, Burns, Carey, Jericho, Begley, Nelson, Schell, Fitzgerald, Finnin, Schubank, Bode (for pick 12), Hewitt, Andwin, Handby, Smith, Skipworth, Schubank, O'Loughlin, Cicolella, Singh :thumbsdown:

What a crock of shit this above list is. And this is the vasy majority of all players drafted/traded in the Ayres era
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oh, so the entire club sat on its hands, including neil craig, and just watched ayres make every decision in the club?

OK, I didn't know that. thanks for putting the record straight. :)

Cmon, crow mos lets see you defend this bunch? Give us your best shot (no turning the gun on yourself now though under the circumstances :D:D).
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surprising that you would think such a weak point was unassailable, where it doesn't even need a response. Shall we blame blight for the drafting in 1997/98/99?


ps Are you also silly enough to argue that Clarksons premiership team werent significantly helped by the clubs recuiting years before he got there
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ok, so you want to pick n choose what parts you think are relevant? you know you could attempt to follow the entire discussion, might even learn something :D
 

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Vader said:
A few things to comment on here...

Firstly, I do agree that our list was in better condition in 2005 than was generally recognised. To a certain extent, 2004 was a blip in a formline which included finals every other year from 2001 to 2008. However, this concession comes with a rider - the list inherited by Neil Craig was completely bereft of youth. At the time he took over, our list contained one solitary teenager - Fungus Watts. In terms of youth development, this has meant that all of the youths being developed have been those drafted since he took over as coach.
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but youth isn't the end game, its the quality of the young players. we didn't have many young players certainly, and now we do. this is inarguably true.

what matters now is how good the young players are, not that they exist.



Secondly, I also agree that the Adelaide team list lacks genuine top-tier, grade 1 talent. This begs the question of how we are to obtain such talent? The AFL specifically changed the rule to prevent us drafting the only F/S talent we've ever had and we have never bottomed out. In the modern era, where drafting has become more science than art, these are the only two paths to obtaining elite talent. Are people genuinely suggesting that we should deliberately aim to finish down the bottom of the ladder in order to have access to such talented players? There's a new thread today asking just this question.
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quite the opposite. this question has been debated and answered many times. only a foolish few are suggesting bottoming out. the main line of criticism is that sitting mid table, we are unlikely to just out draft other teams with our superior drafting skills and knowledge when so much is uncertain.

as an example, trading brought or visibly contributed to our only premierships, and now we have adopted a different strategy. which has raised questions considering how highly valued draft picks have become, and how bad we have typically been with them.

the real problem is not that we draft, and do not trade, or any such combination. the real problem right now, is we, the supporters don't have a visible strategy or plan we can see, understand and fall in behind.

we may not be rudderless, but we wouldn't know it from the outside and looking at circumstance.

Thirdly, someone (maccas_no_1?) posted a list of years that NC has been in charge - from 2004-2009. It's unfair to include 2004 on this list given that he took over mid-season and had no say in the gameplans nor the players on the list. 2009 hasn't even begun yet. So, we need to be judging NC over a 4 year window (2005-08), not 6 years.
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he was there for a drafting and recruiting in 2004.


Fourthly, Adelaide's junior development is nowhere near as bad as many on this board would like to think. I did an analysis on it last year, examining the player development of every youngster each year over the duration of NC's reign. The thread ended in a big debate with Crow-mo. The upshot was that very few if any of the kids to that point had had their development impeded. Arguably the only name I could think of would be Taylor Walker. I failed to locate the thread in question, but am happy to add a link if someone wants to do a more thorough search.
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untrue. this was logical fallacy, that you can pin point a players development being impeded. all that there is, is what there is. you cannot know the woulda coulda shoulda's of the matter.

essentially this is an unprovable contention and should not be raised as if it has somehow been magically solved.


Fifthly, there is no evidence whatsover to support the theory that bottoming out will help you win the flag. St Kilda are a classic example of how it can go wrong. Carlton's bottoming out has given them a great midfield for the future, but they still look shakey at either end of the ground - particularly once Fevola retires. Hawthorn did more than just bottom out - they also traded for a multitude of high draft picks. Even then, it was their older players who won them the GF, players like Hodge & Mitchell who were around long before they hit rock bottom in 2004 & 2005.
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hawthorn got lucky in 2004, without that. no flag.


Premierships winning teams usually have several things in common. Firstly, they have 2 or 3 freakishly elite players who are able to alter the course of a game. We have none. They also have a large group of players in the 100-150 game band, players who are physically mature and who have gelled together through similar experiences over a 4-6 year timeframe. We have just 6 players in this bracket, with only 10 having 100+ games experience in total. We need to be patient and wait for the Craig draftees to mature - VB should be the first of these, due to play his 100th in early 2010. The rest are at least a year behind him.
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ok. but eventually the wait and see period, has to give way to the see with your own eyes period. and I don't think we should expect to be far away from that.

Neil Craig is in the process of transforming the team. When he arrived he had no youngsters to work with whatsoever. Today we have 21 players aged 22 or younger (excluding rookie listed players). This is the group which we hope will take us to our next flag, but we need to be patient as we wait for them to develop. Like Rachel Hunter said in the shampoo commercial... "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen."
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Terry Wallace is in the process of transforming the team, and since when is there a guarantee it will happen. if you cross your fingers too tight, you can do bad things to your circulation :p
 
Capitalist said:
shoot me down here but we have 1 game breaker - Porps, he has won us a few games last season and this will continue.
As for Elite, well time will tell.
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absolutely!

however to really be useful to us, he needs to do 2 things we cannot be sure he is capable of:
1. stay healthy and on the park
2. develop the engine to move into the middle
 
spexau said:
Thank god someone is talking some sense! I completely agree with the points you've made and have been thinking along the same lines since reading some of the rubbish comments made by people on here.

We're due to have half our list develop and peak at the same time. It looks like a pretty solid theory to me. If you have 20 or so players hit their peak at once then you're bound to have a strong team. People need to be patient, the rebuilding started only last year!
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do you know what confirmation bias is?
 

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