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'Culture'

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Sharks On A Plane

Norm Smith Medallist
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Carlton
I feel ashamed for using such a cliched, fundamentally hollow term in the thread title, but this concept has become so ingrained in our analysis of football clubs that I may as well just go with it...

What is the state of our culture? Are our players turning up to work in an environment that is conducive to getting the best out of them?

We have undoubtedly made exceptional progress in this regard over the last decade (although we were virtually forced to, as the competition as a whole ramped up its level of professionalism). I've been thinking about two issues recently, however, that I think may have had more of a detrimental effect on our culture and the playing group's collective psyche than people would think.

1. The delisting of Setanta O'hAilpin. People may well point to Setanta's knee injury as evidence that we made the right call, but I am genuinely concerned by the message this decision sent to the other players. O'hAilpin had worked incredibly hard on his game over the years, adjusting to a variety of different (and often unsuitable) positions in order to best assist the team before eventually finding his niche as an ultra-competitive tall forward. I know not every hard-worker should be immune from delisting, but I thought this decision was a terrible slap in the face to one of our most lionhearted players (in a team sorely lacking them). Our privileging of talent over determination is completely out of whack, in my opinion. It's almost like some players know that they are 'good', and safe as a consequence.

And on a different point, few people seem to appreciate that O'hAilpin is actually a very effective key forward. He might not look pretty but his ability to create a contest and compete fiercely and consistently at ground level are attributes very much suited to the current setup.

2. Leaving Brad Fisher stuck on 99 games. Club officials have in recent years often made public statements pertaining to loyalty, especially with the expansion clubs lurking in the shadows. Well, loyalty is a two way street, and when a fantastic clubman like Brad Fisher is treated like that, surely the players are going to take notice. Fisher was one of the most popular players at the club, and to not allow him the privilege of having his name on the #14 locker - which I think he had clearly earned after playing some excellent football for us in our darkest period - was just a terrible decision.

If I recall correctly we had plenty of games against lowly opposition in which Fish could have come in and played a role across half-forward and bring up his ton, but instead he was left to rot. The club were trying to take the ruthless 'We don't gift games to anyone' line, but I think it backfired badly, instead sending a subconscious message to the players that 'We don't care about you as soon as you're not useful to us anymore'. Sure, that's the reality of the situation, but when the players are then expected to take a pay cut or resist overtures from other clubs (see Grigg and Jacobs), Carlton might not look as appealing as it originally did. Put it this way, if one of my best mates received similar treatment, I would be pissed off.

Again, just because a player is popular with his peers doesn't mean he won't be delisted (see Mark Austin). But to treat a respected club stalwart like he's an embarrassment is just not good enough, and again sends a very poor message in my opinion.

And to take this rambling to its conclusion, it is starting to become evident that Carlton have in recent years neglected the hard workers in favour of 'classy' players. This view is often mirrored in the supporter base. For example, Dennis Armfield has been OUTSTANDING this year but some people still carry on as if he is no good. The reality is that Armfield has furnished into an extremely effective footballer. David Ellard is similar, often being pilloried for his deficiencies when he has in fact a very important and capable inside mid at AFL level. Ellard slaved away dominating the VFL unrewarded for almost three seasons before getting his call up. Ellard's and Andrew Carrazzo's stories of persistence are the kind we should be espousing to our new recruits.

What all that means, I'm not too sure. Tough decisions need to be made at football clubs, undoubtedly, and the players should never be over indulged, but the treatment of O'hAilpin and Fisher will never sit right with me. I'm not suggesting that our players are so mentally fragile that the delisting of a mate will turn them into petulant, half-hearted footballers... But it's decisions like these that set the tone at Visy Park, and the club need to be able to stand by them. I'm not sure they can in both these instances.
 
The Mad Irishman would be more than handy right now, however, he is not the long term solution that the club was looking for, hence he was let go when we had one more player that had to be delisted. I am not sure who has pointed to his knee injury as justification for letting him go and that would be a stupid argument to make as he may not have hurt himself if he was still playing for us. If Mitchell, Casboult and Rowe were all available with Waite in form, we would be questioning why we kept him when there were 3 ruckman and 4 tall forward options that were ahead of him in the pecking order.

You contradict yourself claiming we are letting the club down by gifting players games who do not earn them, then in the next point saying the club has let itself and supporters down by not gifting Fisher another game even though he couldn't earn one on form. You can't have it both ways.

People with an agenda will always have their whipping boys when results do not meet expectations, or a favoured player is not in the side. Unfortunately, Army is one of those players whose role is vital to the team but often goes unnoticed, hence he will have his detractors no matter how well he is playing.

Ellard is getting his reward with regular games at the moment but not sure if he will fit in the best 22 we have, if everyone is fit. You can't fit 30+ into 22 so someone will miss out. The good part is we know players like him give their all and are ready made replacements when the best players in their role at the club are not performing or are out injured.

The culture of a club and what goes into making it what it is, is often very hard to pin down with specific examples. I am sure the two examples you used are relevant, not sure how big an impact they have had though.
 
Your point on Fisher is hard to refute. Easy to forget the exact situation the team was in around that time but bloody hell, one lousy game. Not to mention F/S.
 
You contradict yourself claiming we are letting the club down by gifting players games who do not earn them, then in the next point saying the club has let itself and supporters down by not gifting Fisher another game even though he couldn't earn one on form. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not sure I actually said this... My point about players knowing they are 'safe' was more in terms of knowing their spot on the list is safe.

I agree though, I'm probably reading too much into it, and trying to define something that is essentially intangible
 

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Culture. Everything else can be spot on BUT if you have players running around who hesitate to put their body where it may get bruised THEN you are a SOFT football team. With a longer initiation they may now have been closer to the realization that they will have to overcome their fears but debuting quickly I think they have semi got away with it thanks to team-mates covering for them and their silky skills capitalizing on the outskirts wowing selectors
 
Fisher was sitting on 98 games for a while, so yeah it sounds unfair - we did nurse Houlihan to 200 after all.

As for Setanta, well the club weren't expecting Rowe to get cancer nor Levi and Mitch to be injured.

But good to see Aussie getting some game-time at WB.
 
Your point on Fisher is hard to refute. Easy to forget the exact situation the team was in around that time but bloody hell, one lousy game. Not to mention F/S.

Agree with this. .. I'm a fan of the club first but loyalty be-gets loyalty and goes both ways. .. I've respected Geelong, as an example, for having a good culture of loyalty over the years. ..
 
Good post and makes sense. We can have the flashiest players in the league but it wont bring a flag until the team as a whole bleeds for the jumper.

I just dont think there is enough heart shown by the playing group right now. It is getting better however, but it will take time.

Murph, Laids and Waite tweeting about the umpires actually was heartening. It made me think that the players perhaps had a similar passion about the CFC that the fans do.
 
I loved Setanta and in hindsight who could say they would prefer Bower over Setanta in the side now?
To be honest, if either of them were to spend any length of time in our 22 we would know we are eons away from challenging for the premiership. Neither of them should now be among our Top 30 players.
 
strongly disagree. Setanta is good enough
If he was good enough, GWS wouldn't have been the only club to show interest in him.

I had nothing against Carlos, but at the end of the day I would much prefer game time be given to the likes of Mitchell, Casboult, Rowe, even Hammer, as KPFs than Carlos.
 
I loved Setanta and in hindsight who could say they would prefer Bower over Setanta in the side now?
It's been answered by Ratten who expected Rowe and Casboult to be playing.

I love how average players become required players once they join another club. o_O :confused:
1. The delisting of Setanta O'hAilpin. People may well point to Setanta's knee injury as evidence that we made the right call, but I am genuinely concerned by the message this decision sent to the other players. O'hAilpin had worked incredibly hard on his game over the years, adjusting to a variety of different (and often unsuitable) positions in order to best assist the team before eventually finding his niche as an ultra-competitive tall forward. I know not every hard-worker should be immune from delisting, but I thought this decision was a terrible slap in the face to one of our most lionhearted players (in a team sorely lacking them). Our privileging of talent over determination is completely out of whack, in my opinion. It's almost like some players know that they are 'good', and safe as a consequence.
If the club was interested in talent over determination, then Lucas would be in the side ahead of Armfield, Joseph and Ellard.
 

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The whole Fisher scenario still makes me sick to my stomach. One lousy game ffs...

Having been reminded of that, I'm too upset to talk about anything else mentioned in this thread.
 
Culture is a funny thing, is so important when you are not succeeding but not heard of when you are.

It's pretty simple, play players who deserve to be played so that the side can win. I think a lot of supporters forget Fisher was not a bad player and played 99 because he deserved them, and deserved to play his 100th also (IMO). That is why it is sad. He did not deserve a sympothy 100th game and would not have taken pride in receiving it.

As for Setanta, he should have been retained and a smaller player should have been axed in the mould of a Joseph.Would have proven really handy as depth for our spine, where we are still struggling.
 
Carlton have in recent years neglected the hard workers in favour of 'classy' players. This view is often mirrored in the supporter base.


Andrew Walker was 'pilloried' from post to post by Carlton supporters, and the club hung him out for trade bait.

Ryan Houlihan was probably one of the least respected player by many supporters on this forum. Club was pretty good about him.

I think the overall tone of your post is pretty accurate sharks, I feel it may be a sense of having been so bad, with so many poor players, we are idolize the flashy brilliance of our exceptional players and overlook the hard workers.

How Dennis Armfield gets slagged off is absolutely beyond me - an insidious lack of understanding of him.

The blues need to really instill a deep sense of club mentality, historical importance, as you put it culture.

The Geelong game was a great sign of a turn around, West Coast game has reinforced that.

We might well win a couple of our next two - :cool:
 
Will put any money on that Fisher will have a son that will take the comp by storm. :oops:
 
There seemed to be a sense of complacency at admin level a few years back that has filtered through onto the ground. This has never been addressed because there has been a steady (natural) improvement since '07, which was acceptable. Now, this complacency is being found out and the season is crashing down like a condemned building. Even listening to Robert Walls on radio, with the last month the way it's been, he's like, paraphrasing "Ratten's a good coach...Geelong were in a similar type position in '06" I mean, fair dinkum!

Does he seriously think the team is just going to pop up and dominate next year, or come close to? The club is not in a position to expect anything to happen, no one is going to hand us a premiership. We have to take it, seize the moment. I'm not getting an impression of this intensity atm. Ratten being hired as coach is a reflection of a sense of complacency. Would Ratten have come close to getting a head coaching job elsewhere at the time he was hired? Nowhere near from being. Would someone with the assit. coaching experience/record of a person of Ratten's reputation, at another club, have come close to repalacing Pagan? No. So why was he hired in the first place, when the potential was huge?
 
Ratten really shot himself badly in the foot when he dropped Fisher after the Collingwood game that year. From memory he didn't do that bad and we made a change that equated to nothing in the end and it would've been a fitting send off.
 

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Andrew Walker was 'pilloried' from post to post by Carlton supporters, and the club hung him out for trade bait.

Ryan Houlihan was probably one of the least respected player by many supporters on this forum. Club was pretty good about him.

I think the overall tone of your post is pretty accurate sharks, I feel it may be a sense of having been so bad, with so many poor players, we are idolize the flashy brilliance of our exceptional players and overlook the hard workers.

How Dennis Armfield gets slagged off is absolutely beyond me - an insidious lack of understanding of him.

The blues need to really instill a deep sense of club mentality, historical importance, as you put it culture.

The Geelong game was a great sign of a turn around, West Coast game has reinforced that.

We might well win a couple of our next two - :cool:

When you have an avid poster like the General decide he is not a footballer (TG's credentials?) and don't forget TG never changes his mind on who is on or off his favourites list, then you will find that Army can expect sniper attacks for years to come
 
really agree with the OP, the Fisher thing was pointless. Fisher was just a player but we were an ordinary side and giving him that 1 extra game was the bleeding obvious thing to do. I bet this comes back to bit us and he has kids that are guns.
 
Ratten really shot himself badly in the foot when he dropped Fisher after the Collingwood game that year. From memory he didn't do that bad and we made a change that equated to nothing in the end and it would've been a fitting send off.

The Collingwood game was a really bad 10 goal loss where the score actually flattered Carlton. I am sure Ratts would have loved Fish to get to 100 games, but at the end of the day we had to play our best 22 to give the best chance of winning, as Carlton only just made the finals in 2010. A hard call that had to be made. Unfortunately Fish's defensive pressure was unacceptable at AFL level.
 
I feel ashamed for using such a cliched, fundamentally hollow term in the thread title, but this concept has become so ingrained in our analysis of football clubs that I may as well just go with it...

What is the state of our culture? Are our players turning up to work in an environment that is conducive to getting the best out of them?

We have undoubtedly made exceptional progress in this regard over the last decade (although we were virtually forced to, as the competition as a whole ramped up its level of professionalism). I've been thinking about two issues recently, however, that I think may have had more of a detrimental effect on our culture and the playing group's collective psyche than people would think.


I think reading this a bit of Karma will come back at Carlton. I think Ratten will be gone. He may be pushed out by the big brokers at that club as I can not see you guys winning any of the next 3 games. I think basically you need to win every game for the rest of the season if you lose them. Carlton rarely win more then 4 games in a row and it is harder at this time of the year. I think Bret Thornton would be very worried if Ratten stays, he is on the Fisher and O'hAilpin clubmen type you say. I would think he keep Joseph, Collins, Mclean on his list because like him are midfield players. I think he did not rate those guys as much as others.
 
The culture is softness. We have not learned to toughen up and win against teams who come at us physically. Don't tell me after 4 years we couldn't have developed a harder edge to our game and the way players approach matches.

Too many favourites get automatic selection no matter how their form is. It just shows the entire group that poor performances are acceptable. We needed to take a ferocious approach after the essendon loss to instill in the entire playing group that shit will not be tolerated. Instead, players that played poorly were still selected and continued to perform poorly but still remained in the side. Garlett, Simpson and Gibbs were the MOST disappointing. 3 players that should've stood up when we had Carrots and Murph out but didn't.

I don't give a shit how many games Simmo has in a row, if he is MIA week after week then he needs to be sent to the magoos. Same with Gibbs, too soft, allows opposition players to be first at the ball and goes MIA when the going gets tough, no impact on games at all. Garlett same story MIA or full of fumbly, soft efforts. How these 3 were continuously selected is beyond me! YOu might say oh we had no one else, well wrong we could've brought others in we were going to lose anyway but at least we could've made a stand.

They know we're coming? lol for what, more early draft picks?
Smell what the Blues are cooking? Yeah, it stinks.
No passengers? yeah right :rolleyes:
I am Carlton? I am disappointed!
 

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