Dan Collins

[chopperduck]

I have no problem with having a high performance manager cracking down on the club (players and staff) when clearly we aren't performing to our potentional. Some people will no like that kind of approach, but if that is how Voss wants it done than that's that. I think a lot of adjusting is still going on going from the Lethal to the Voss era. They are different people, different coaches and are going to do things differently.

At the end of the day all of this wasn't a problem when we were sitting at 4-0

 

[Stocka]

You are right in that we appointed Voss with eyes wide open.

I don't agree. I'd suggest the approach was more "one-eyed" than anything. Did we even have an interview process or consider possible candidates other than Voss?

I think that some of the motives and assumptions behind the appointment are a questionable. Had there been an interview process with various candidates having been interviewed then perhaps there might be more confidence in the strength of the appointment.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I don't agree. I'd suggest the approach was more "one-eyed" than anything. Did we even have an interview process or consider possible candidates other than Voss?

You have missed the point.

I am pretty sure they are referring to the fact that the club knew Voss was not yet the complete package and was given a mandate to learn on the job.

 

[Del35196]

Note to Vossy: instead of recruiting blokes with big long fancy titles, how about recruiting someone who can coach a football team.

 

[Gibbo_88]

Wow do we need a win to get the focus off the coaching staff. Whether there is an actual problem or not specifically with Collins we won't know. Even before these speculative articles were made a few people made comparisons from our coaching staff to other teams and we don't have enough assistant coaches.

We have been extremely unlucky in injuries to key players and we have 5 players out for the season already so its hardly surprising that our best 22, which has players that shouldn't be there is one of the worst teams in the comp. If the same thing happens next year (injuries, losing to teams like North, Adelaide, Richmond and Melbourne) then I think we have a huge problem.

The year is over so hopefully with Brown and Maguire back hopefully we can see a different team and have something good to write about the team instead of a few individuals.

 

[Warwick]

If Voss is learning on the job, who is he learning from? Football, and sport in general is a difficult place to learn on the run. You may learn from mistakes and experience but there are only so many mistakes you can make before the board / supporters / players / the media start to turn on you.

Collins, Rawlings, McRae, Lambert, McDonald are hardly an all-star support cast.

Matthews isn't the answer either - great servant but has had his time at the club.

I had problems with the Voss appointment purely as it appeared we had no process in place to pick the best man. There didn't appear to be any interview process or expressions of interest put out there. If we wanted Voss as head coach, and wanted him to "learn" on the run he should have been surrounded by astute football tacticians and experienced assistant coaches. And for more than one year.

Money may be the big issue and you can't have everyone you want as it starts to inpact on the quality you have on the park. Unless you are Collingwood, West Coast, Essendon, Adelaide, Geelong for instance.

So why are we wasting money on a high performance manager with zero football background and recruiting spuds like Rawlings and McRae with absymal records? Ditch the lot for an experinced midfield coach from a successful team with a proven record and a quality opposition strategy / tactics coach. If we need to give up a quality player on the park to siphon funds back into the football and development departments, so be it.

If Voss is the answer (and I'm not convinced he is) he must have a decent team in place - not the Raggy Dolls cast.

It is not going to simply and magically turn around either. We need an outside and independent party to strip this club from top to bottom and provide some direction for the future. Time for the club to stop looking internally and to start by getting an honest outsiders (read: not media) appraisal - regardless of whether those at the head of our organisation agree with it or not.

Once again it all begins and ends with one Michael Bowers. The sooner he goes the sooner we can get this mess back on track. There have to be 15 better blokes in Brisbane alone who could successfully run an established AFL club in a city that is growing more and more with the game, let alone those from an AFL background down south.

Our list of problems is growing larger and larger.

Our off-field team has to be the weakest in the league. Starting with Bowers and Kelly who were gifted the most powerful club in the land earlier this decade their pig-headiness is slowly disingrating a once-top organisation.

Our coaching team is, to be frank, laughable. Our midfield has gone backwards as we refuse to adapt to the modern game. Why has Banfield stuck out like bulls bollocks this year? Smart player with speed - jeez what are we thinking? Development is going to be the most important aspect for any team in the next 10 years as there is no hiding players before the drafts, and an extra 2 teams take their share of the cream. So why do we have a bloke like McRae in that roll? Amazing that the Richmond youngsters are starting to grow now that he is away from there. He wants to go back to the AFLQ? I'm not sure the Magpies would take him. Jobs for the boys again. How about we stop looking for old boys and go get the best talent from the rest of the league?

Our senior coach looks lost and is reactive with his gameplan. Not exclusively his fault but it makes it a bit hard if the quality men are being shipped away to accomodate his no-name right-hand man.

We lament year after year that we are cruelled by injuries. How many more years before something changes? You can't help the freak ACLs etc, and the bloody Gabba pitch has a lot to answer for but our strength, conditioning and rehab staff must take some of the heat. It is their job afterall. We can start by not playing blokes on one leg.

Our facilities are a joke. Not within cooey of the best and a tin shed compared with perennial strugglers the Bulldogs and North Melbourne. Why upgrade our facilities when we can upgrade and wreck the greatest jumper in any code? Sure money is an issue, but more and more money is being filtered from important departments such as recruitment and football department, all the while we fight a lawsuit that should never have happened.

Our trade strategy and player management has been close to the bottom of the league. It boggles the mind how far off we are in judging ours or others worth. We continue to recruit dumb footballers. We have a list of about 15 stupid football players on our list - they aren't all "bad" players but there are only so many you can accomodate in a squad. We go after blokes with absolutely no speed for hard-nut clams. This isn't 1978.

Our basic skills are embarrassing. Not sticking tackles, handballing back into traffic, static upfield, no idea what to do when kicking out, standing behind our opponent in defense, scrubbing kicks time and time again to Fev and Browny, blokes not being able to kick a ball 35m at goal.

We have the lowest membership base in the league yet continue to alienate our Melbourne supporters leaning towards an exclusively one-town team. The absolute disregard for the members who are the lifeblood of this organisation is beyond belief. The stubbornness and arrogance of the men in senior positions at our club is disgusting.

 

[maroon and blue]

Agree 100% Warwick. How does Bowers survive?

 

[Stocka]

You have missed the point.

I don't think I have.

I am pretty sure they are referring to the fact that the club knew Voss was not yet the complete package and was given a mandate to learn on the job.

How do we know that this is what the club was thinking? From many indications that I recall, it seems that the club may not have been thinking this at all. Most of the feeling emanating from the club at the time of Voss's appointment was that "he was the right man for the job". Yet, how could you really know this if there was no interview process with multiple candidates? Not knowing someone's capacity in relation to who else is available does not reflect an "eyes wide open" approach, in my opinion, regardless of how you think a person will perform in the role once they have been appointed.

I think people are making some favourable hindsight adjustments to the perceptions that have been supposedly had in the past regarding various decisions that have been made. For instance, I think that the point about "learning on the job" seems to be a catch-phrase that has come to the fore more of late as opposed to in the past. It seems that people have adopted this notion more readily once things have started going pear-shaped. I don't seem to recall this phrase being used much at all prior to this time.

I'd suggest that all good coaches learn on the job and continue to do so, right throughout their careers, regardless of experience or years at the helm. So it makes it a bit of a moot point to suggest that Voss has some mandate to do "learn on the job", when it is a requirement of all coaches, not just those new to the profession. Therefore, the issue is not whether or not Voss was given a mandate to "learn on the job", because this is actually a mandate for all coaches. Rather the issue is whether or not Voss is capable of learning on the job to the level required to achieve success. This is also coupled with whether or not Voss was indeed the best available person for the job with these sort of considerations in mind. On this point, how could the club have had their "eyes wide open" about Voss's capabilities and the probability for success when there was no formal interview or application process or referencing of Voss's ability against other candidates?

On top of that, if the club indeed had their "eyes wide open" about the ramifications of Voss "learning on the job", did they foresee the current state of on-field affairs that we've seen in 2010? I'd suggest that they didn't predict or expect things to pan out the way they have, so once again, I'd question the notion of them having had an "eyes wide open" approach.

 

[POBT]

You have missed the point.

I am pretty sure they are referring to the fact that the club knew Voss was not yet the complete package and was given a mandate to learn on the job.

Yep. Voss was appointed by the club with full knowledge that he'd not done a formal coaching role in a club.

I didn't agree with the appointment process at the time and still don't. But we knew what we were getting in for. He was a known quantity in a lot of respects, due to his association at the club. What we didn't know was whether he was the best man for the job because we didn't speak to anyone else.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Essendon had a full application process and somehow ended up with Matthew Knights.

Who knows whether we would have done much better.

 

[POBT]

Stocka, you have missed the point. My "eyes wide open" comment was about Voss himself, not about the process or the club's failure to consider other options.

The club might not have covered themselves in glory in the past few years but you can't be arguing that they didn't expect Voss to be on a learning curve throughout the first couple of years of his appointment. Of course they did. If nothing else, they had the whole football world telling them that.

Despite his inexperience, they still appointed him. They weren't blinded to his inexperience. They just didn't think it was a decisive factor.

 

[MacMum]

If Voss is learning on the job, who is he learning from? Football, and sport in general is a difficult place to learn on the run. You may learn from mistakes and experience but there are only so many mistakes you can make before the board / supporters / players / the media start to turn on you.

Collins, Rawlings, McRae, Lambert, McDonald are hardly an all-star support cast.

Matthews isn't the answer either - great servant but has had his time at the club.

I had problems with the Voss appointment purely as it appeared we had no process in place to pick the best man. There didn't appear to be any interview process or expressions of interest put out there. If we wanted Voss as head coach, and wanted him to "learn" on the run he should have been surrounded by astute football tacticians and experienced assistant coaches. And for more than one year.

Money may be the big issue and you can't have everyone you want as it starts to inpact on the quality you have on the park. Unless you are Collingwood, West Coast, Essendon, Adelaide, Geelong for instance.

So why are we wasting money on a high performance manager with zero football background and recruiting spuds like Rawlings and McRae with absymal records? Ditch the lot for an experinced midfield coach from a successful team with a proven record and a quality opposition strategy / tactics coach. If we need to give up a quality player on the park to siphon funds back into the football and development departments, so be it.

If Voss is the answer (and I'm not convinced he is) he must have a decent team in place - not the Raggy Dolls cast.

It is not going to simply and magically turn around either. We need an outside and independent party to strip this club from top to bottom and provide some direction for the future. Time for the club to stop looking internally and to start by getting an honest outsiders (read: not media) appraisal - regardless of whether those at the head of our organisation agree with it or not.

Once again it all begins and ends with one Michael Bowers. The sooner he goes the sooner we can get this mess back on track. There have to be 15 better blokes in Brisbane alone who could successfully run an established AFL club in a city that is growing more and more with the game, let alone those from an AFL background down south.

Our list of problems is growing larger and larger.

Our off-field team has to be the weakest in the league. Starting with Bowers and Kelly who were gifted the most powerful club in the land earlier this decade their pig-headiness is slowly disingrating a once-top organisation.

Our coaching team is, to be frank, laughable. Our midfield has gone backwards as we refuse to adapt to the modern game. Why has Banfield stuck out like bulls bollocks this year? Smart player with speed - jeez what are we thinking? Development is going to be the most important aspect for any team in the next 10 years as there is no hiding players before the drafts, and an extra 2 teams take their share of the cream. So why do we have a bloke like McRae in that roll? Amazing that the Richmond youngsters are starting to grow now that he is away from there. He wants to go back to the AFLQ? I'm not sure the Magpies would take him. Jobs for the boys again. How about we stop looking for old boys and go get the best talent from the rest of the league?

Our senior coach looks lost and is reactive with his gameplan. Not exclusively his fault but it makes it a bit hard if the quality men are being shipped away to accomodate his no-name right-hand man.

We lament year after year that we are cruelled by injuries. How many more years before something changes? You can't help the freak ACLs etc, and the bloody Gabba pitch has a lot to answer for but our strength, conditioning and rehab staff must take some of the heat. It is their job afterall. We can start by not playing blokes on one leg.

Our facilities are a joke. Not within cooey of the best and a tin shed compared with perennial strugglers the Bulldogs and North Melbourne. Why upgrade our facilities when we can upgrade and wreck the greatest jumper in any code? Sure money is an issue, but more and more money is being filtered from important departments such as recruitment and football department, all the while we fight a lawsuit that should never have happened.

Our trade strategy and player management has been close to the bottom of the league. It boggles the mind how far off we are in judging ours or others worth. We continue to recruit dumb footballers. We have a list of about 15 stupid football players on our list - they aren't all "bad" players but there are only so many you can accomodate in a squad. We go after blokes with absolutely no speed for hard-nut clams. This isn't 1978.

Our basic skills are embarrassing. Not sticking tackles, handballing back into traffic, static upfield, no idea what to do when kicking out, standing behind our opponent in defense, scrubbing kicks time and time again to Fev and Browny, blokes not being able to kick a ball 35m at goal.

We have the lowest membership base in the league yet continue to alienate our Melbourne supporters leaning towards an exclusively one-town team. The absolute disregard for the members who are the lifeblood of this organisation is beyond belief. The stubbornness and arrogance of the men in senior positions at our club is disgusting.

Kimp..This is the sort of thing to put in an email...puts across some excellent intelligent points of view from a member/supporter..

Something for them to think about, when its there in front of them to see..

...and yes, I think the members have every right to voice their opinion, when things appear to be going horribly wrong, as has been reported..

If one man is causing disharmony among the playing group, then we as supporters have the right to say enough is enough...sort it out!

IIRC this happened a few years ago, that person was dispensed quickly from the club..different type of scenario, but still a one person, disharmony situation..

Excellent post Warwick..



p.s.....I have no problem with Voss as Coach, or how he got the job....I agree with TBD, we don't know if it would have been better going through "proper" interviews.. Lots of top coaches from the past had success without doing an "apprenticeship"...IMO you are either a coach or you are not.....all the training in the world doesn't gaurantee success, or even being good at the job..

 

[BuntonRules]

I am pretty sure they are referring to the fact that the club knew Voss was not yet the complete package and was given a mandate to learn on the job.

As a club legend, Vossy was always going to follow Leigh. I was so pleased to see the Brittain brothers as offsiders/mentors. I viewed Collins as some sort of 'computer boffin' & did not envision him as the ringmaster.

Now we have lost the Brittains, we have a non football focus in our team management & I am worried.

Mate, I am just some mug on the hill cheering for my team & hoping we will improve in future seasons enough that I will enjoy another flag - but right now I am deeply worried.

On the other side, we have another Rising Star nomination to lift us. What no one can deny is that Vossy ( and staff) are developing our babys beautifully.

 

[Hollow Knight]

MacMum: Well my first response to that email if I was Michael Bowers would be "Do you know Craig McRae? If no, what puts you in a position to be making judgements on his ability to do the job".

The "He is from Richmond, he must be crap" argument doesn't wash with me.

If people don't think that some of the improvement in Richmond's young kids this year is partly due to McRae, you are delusional.

By the way... Rockliff... Banfield... Cornelius... Redden... Polkinghorne... Rich... I think the development of our kids is looking ok.

 

[Ceebee]

Can't believe so much over reaction

 

[Old Den]

Can't believe so much over reaction

I imagine Hammo is patting himself on the back...or maybe licking his elbow.

 

[Stocka]

Stocka, you have missed the point. My "eyes wide open" comment was about Voss himself, not about the process or the club's failure to consider other options.

The club might not have covered themselves in glory in the past few years but you can't be arguing that they didn't expect Voss to be on a learning curve throughout the first couple of years of his appointment. Of course they did. If nothing else, they had the whole football world telling them that.

Despite his inexperience, they still appointed him. They weren't blinded to his inexperience. They just didn't think it was a decisive factor.

I don't mean to be contrary, POBT, but think you're missing my point, that I am examining this notion of "eyes wide open" to go beyond the limitation to which you are applying it. If you want to apply the "eyes wide open" statement in the limited sense of accepting the words that may have been used to suggest that Voss would "learn on the job", that's fine, but it certainly doesn't seem to summarise the actual appointment of Voss and the structures or people implemented in support roles very accurately in my opinion. Perhaps the difference in how you and I are seeing this discussion is that you are perhaps looking at what was said, whereas I am perhaps looking more at what was done.

All coaches "learn on the job". To imply that this situation is unique to Voss and that therefore the club had their "eyes wide open" to the situation seems to also imply that they had their "eyes closed" to the fact the requirement is actually more about how capable someone is of learning and to what degree they will learn in order to achieve the success that you want.

As I said, did the club have its "eyes wide open" about whether or not Voss would be a capable learner, how much he had to learn and the conditions that would assist him to learn? It seems that they have made a miscalculation on some of these points, which is why I am begging to differ on the use of the phrase!

My impression of the "learn on the job" mantra was that it came across more as a throw-away line to put an answer to those who had questioned Voss's appointment on the basis of his lack of experience. I suppose that comes down to one's own impression, but that's just my take.

Warwick made a good point earlier about whether or not the club had set up a process in which Voss could learn from others. It seems that there has been a miscalculation in the sorts of people who have been employed alongside Voss in order to help him learn on the job.

To be fair, I would not say that Voss has been a "failure". Things went well last season and he seemed to be able to get good results out of most players on the list. I also think it is possible for Voss to turn things around in the future from where they are now. However, I think Voss may have gotten ahead of himself from the end of last season in a number of respects, which also seems to have been accepted by those around him, which would suggest that the "learning on the job" view was not really prevalent.

Anyway, as I said, I suppose we're analysing the phrase perhaps from two different points, but, yeah!

 

[MacMum]

MacMum: Well my first response to that email if I was Michael Bowers would be "Do you know Craig McRae? If no, what puts you in a position to be making judgements on his ability to do the job".

The "He is from Richmond, he must be crap" argument doesn't wash with me.

If people don't think that some of the improvement in Richmond's young kids this year is partly due to McRae, you are delusional.

By the way... Rockliff... Banfield... Cornelius... Redden... Polkinghorne... Rich... I think the development of our kids is looking ok.

TheBrownDog...Well if you were Mr Bowers and took that dismissive attitude toward an email from a concerned supporter, who was pointing out his concerns as he sees them and in a reasonable and well thought out manner, then I would suggest your arrogance is coming to the fore once again..

I think the kids are coming along o.k as well, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem..

With all the talk about this situation on the various footy shows, newspapers and radio...all negative stuff....I don't see that the comments by us here, are an over reaction at all..

 

[dlanod]

MacMum: Well my first response to that email if I was Michael Bowers would be "Do you know Craig McRae? If no, what puts you in a position to be making judgements on his ability to do the job".

Obviously you're wrong here. If you were Michael Bowers your first response to that email would be "Are you a member? If not, **** off. If yes, thanks for your money. We've had a focus group, so **** off."

 

[chopperduck]

Is it any surprise that all the media talk for us is negative though ? When a club like ours has woefully underperformed you don't do positive stories about them as a journo, you do all the negative ones. Coach under fire, players not happy with someone etc. I've said it before, if our season went to script and we were near top 4, no Collins talk would have come out.

Also MacMum, whilst I agree with you that members can do such things like email the club about reported dramas, you can't really expect much in return. We can't expect our admin spending all day replying to fans eating up every media report and questioning about things they aren't a part of.

Sometimes it takes bad things to get change to happen. I'd put up with a few bad years if it got bowers out of the club.

 

[Tassie4ever]

Essendon had a full application process and somehow ended up with Matthew Knights.

Who knows whether we would have done much better.

Strange as it may seem, in reading Warwick's and others comments here the thought occured in my tiny little mind was that the exact parallel to Voss was Knights. Totally single-minded, lacks any apparent mentor or senior adviser, and has run into personnel problems.

I know first hand of at least one senior Bombers player who will be out of the place asap, all down to Knight's management style and personality.

Looking at coverage of Knight's reaction to recent criticism, and Voss' pretty hostile retaliation to similar media comment, the comparisons were eerie.

Like some have said, any coach who stops learning is gone.

 

[western royboy]

I'm with Warwick on this one. He sums up my position perfectly.

 

[Quigley]

All this talk of due process in getting a senior coach is bollox imho. They all come in and the guy who tells you what you most want to hear gets the job. Thats why Knights got the job and Hardwick didn't at Essendon. Hardwick said he would need a couple of years to build the list to make it a perennial finals contender whereas Knights told them they had a great list and they would win right away.

How many times have you seen the CEO positions of the top 100 companies advertised? Virtually never. What happens is that they either promote from within or they go and headhunt the best candidate. I have no problem with the Lions board headhunting the guy they believed was the best guy for the job.

After that though they should have taken more steps to ensure that the support structures were there to ensure success and that is in my opinion where things have gone wrong. In his first year there was a much better support team then this year. A great deal more experience and tactical nous I think. For whatever there was a huge turnover last year and the guys coming in were not of the same caliber.

Collins and Voss are both big proponents of structures and systems and if they had done a skills gap analysis on the coaching staff I am sure the deficiencies should have been obvious. Maybe there was a lot of wishful thinking going on.

On the biggest incompetent in the Lions organisation I am sure Bowers leaving would be of great significance to the Lions. Not living in Brisbane I only caught on the radio the other day that Bruno Cullen is leaving the Broncos. Any chance we could get him to the Lions? He has been a bit controversial sure but the Broncos are a powerhouse off the field and that kind of sports club management acumen is what the Lions need. If the Lions board went out and headhunted him without interviewing anyone else I would have no problem.

 

[western royboy]

On the biggest incompetent in the Lions organisation I am sure Bowers leaving would be of great significance to the Lions. Not living in Brisbane I only caught on the radio the other day that Bruno Cullen is leaving the Broncos. Any chance we could get him to the Lions? He has been a bit controversial sure but the Broncos are a powerhouse off the field and that kind of sports club management acumen is what the Lions need. If the Lions board went out and headhunted him without interviewing anyone else I would have no problem.

I am also a long way away to but I have followed the Broncos closely thru a contact with their former coach. IMO I do not want Bruno Cullen anywhere near our club, you would just be replacing like with like. The three big spots in an AFL Club. Coach - on field performance and leadership -pretty obvious; Chairman - to provide the off field leadership and performance and naturally CEO working between the two.

We are struggling in all areas at the minute an the club has an appearance of an old boys club.

Shake up required. I'd kill for a leader like Costa, Kennett (thought I'd never say that), Smorgon or McGuire and a CEO like Cook or Pert.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I think the kids are coming along o.k as well, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem..

No, but it would seem to indicate that at the very least that McRae (a development coach) might be hitting his KPIs.

My point being, if you are going to email Bowers with suggestions on how to run the entire show, you better have a fair idea that you know what the problems are. A long email essentially saying "everything and everyone stinks!" would find its way into my deleted box pretty quickly.

I'm with kimp, there is a huge difference between emailing about something as easily disectable as a logo/jumper change and emailing them with your agenda to reform the entire operation. Especially when all you have to go on is media reports and the fact we haven't won many games this year.

Clearly not everything is peachy, and in any organisation with 46+ elite athletes and 20+ administrators and managers, you are going to have ego clashes. When things aren't going well on-field, articles about personal rifts are money for jam.

Let's see how the club responds for the rest of the year. If things don't improve, of course there will be reviews of internal processes, probing questions will be asked at the AGM...

I can understand your angst and the need to feel like you can do something about it, but as with any business, there are ways these things get done. A midyear email based heavily on speculative media reports is going to get swatted away without a care.