David Noble

[Nathan Barley]

Our 2016 and 2017 lists were better. Their list has the same or worse problems, bugger all KPP’s outside the ruck.

KPPs aren't that bad. McKay, Walker and Corr (Tarrant last year before offloading) and Larkey forward is a pretty decent setup

 

[martinson]

Surely Nobles time at North is evidence that he isn't the master tactician that some on this board thinks he is.

Maybe part that and part he tried to implement a regime that backfired with the players he had.

I know it looks dire but I wouldn't be writing him off coaching wise just yet.

Given they have got a long way to go to be consistently competitive.

 

[Happy_Neale]

Interesting discussion from Caroline Wilson yesterday, suggesting Kane Cornes pot shot at Luff for his analytics based approach to recruiting, was the last straw for Luff and triggered him walking.

I did wonder how Luff would do as the head guy, coming from Champion Data.

Noble always had analytics guy when he was at Adelaide and with us, in an advisory role.

One of Norths (junior) recruiters is sometimes active on the North BigFooty board, I wonder if he’s provided any insight on their forum. I don’t have the time to go reading their board to dig through hundreds of pages on recent events.

Interesting. I wonder if he was waiting for enough ammunition to leave due to a hostile work environment or something similar, rather than just walking out to take up a different role, as you would assume this would have implications for payouts/contract clauses. Wouldn't be the best place to work at the moment and they seem to be abandoning ship.

 

[Happy_Neale]

I remember hearing years ago that a number of old Fitzroy fans decided not to join Brisbane and instead started to follow North I d assume that is because they wanted Fitzroy to merge with North.

Anyway, those Fitzroy fans must be having a dejavu feeling if that is the case which you described Lionheart182.

I am purely spitbaling there, no inside word and not even really across the situation as a whole.

I had heard of a few as well, that would be a really unfortunate situation. Assume they would probably just stop watching. To be honest if another team was shipped off it would really make me question continuing to support the AFL as well. Such a heartwrenching time.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Our 2016 and 2017 lists were better. Their list has the same or worse problems, bugger all KPP’s outside the ruck.

That's partly his own fault for not drafting Logan McDonald and not acquiring a veteran KPP. Peter Wright was on the market and now looks good at Essendon. Jack Hayes was free to a good home at the beginning of the year. And Dew has somehow managed to reanimate the corpse of Levi Casboult. There were plenty of options available.

 

[briztoon]

That's partly his own fault for not drafting Logan McDonald and not acquiring a veteran KPP. Peter Wright was on the market and now looks good at Essendon. Jack Hayes was free to a good home at the beginning of the year. And Dew has somehow managed to reanimate the corpse of Levi Casboult. There were plenty of options available.

Logan McDonald was certainly a stuff up. But I always wondered if there was some word that McDonald didn’t want to go to North or Victoria. Sydney have always backed in their retention, and they have a nice little enclave of WA draftees.

As for the others you mention, Wright and Casboult got to choose where they went, same with Hayes as a SSP pick up.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

As for the others you mention, Wright and Casboult got to choose where they went, same with Hayes as a SSP pick up.

Of course they did. But if North made a play for any of them, I'm yet to hear of it.

 

[Roylion]

I remember hearing years ago that a number of old Fitzroy fans decided not to join Brisbane and instead started to follow North I d assume that is because they wanted Fitzroy to merge with North.

On the basis of his interviews with hundreds of former Fitzroy players, officials, shareholders, members and supporters and he also spoke to hundreds of other Fitzroy supporters author Adam Muyt of "Maroon and Blue" made the following conclusions:

• at least 40 percent of Fitzroy supporters have been lost to AFL football. Assuming that Fitzroy's support base was about 200,000 (as estimated by Roy Morgan) then we can assume about 80,000 no longer actively support / have lost interest in AFL football.
• between 5-10 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another code or lower levels of Australian Rules football as their primary football experience. (about 10,000-20,000)
• no more than 5 percent of Fitzroy supporters now follow another AFL side, including a few hundred that went across to North Melbourne. (No more than 10,000). This does not necessarily mean taking out a AFL club membership of their new club. Maybe 800 Fitzroy members / supporters took out a membership of North Melbourne in the years following 1996.
• over 40 percent of Fitzroy people support / follow the Brisbane Lions, but may not be necessarily paid up members. (about 80,000). In 1997, Brisbane's Victorian membership was 3,200, but has been as high as 8,000.

Anyway, those Fitzroy fans must be having a dejavu feeling if that is the case which you described Lionheart182.

North Melbourne's supposed demise through relocation or merger to Tasmania or anywhere else is overblown.

 

[martinson]

People say a lot of things when emotions are running high but it's only with the passage of time you get to see their true intentions.

The AFL made a massive mistake in getting rid of Fitzroy. There's still a lot of support there and the way inner city Melbourne has developed they would've become a cult favourite.

Now they're stuck with NM and propping up other clubs that aren't viable. Fortunately corporate and advertising money has poured into televised sports across the board which is very forgiving of the strategic errors.

I'm not unhappy with how things played out but it was handled appallingly at the time. Especially by that whoever it was Brisbane President at the time who thought he was a Roman General.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

People say a lot of things when emotions are running high but it's only with the passage of time you get to see their true intentions.

The AFL made a massive mistake in getting rid of Fitzroy. There's still a lot of support there and the way inner city Melbourne has developed they would've become a cult favourite.

Now they're stuck with NM and propping up other clubs that aren't viable. Fortunately corporate and advertising money has poured into televised sports across the board which is very forgiving of the strategic errors.

I'm not unhappy with how things played out but it was handled appallingly at the time. Especially by that whoever it was Brisbane President at the time who thought he was a Roman General.

You undercut your own point by taking a shot at North and other clubs. Why would Fitzroy become a cult favourite where North haven't? How can you be sure that would be enough for them to remain financially viable? If the city of Melbourne isn't viable for 9 clubs anymore, why would it be viable for a 10th?

 

[mpal6]

Surely Nobles time at North is evidence that he isn't the master tactician that some on this board thinks he is.

We had a decent core to work with for Noble and Fagan. Noble walked in as North Coach with 11 delisted in 2020 and another 8 or 9 in 2021. Really bad time to be a head coach of that footy club, regardless of who it is.

 

[martinson]

You undercut your own point by taking a shot at North and other clubs. Why would Fitzroy become a cult favourite where North haven't? How can you be sure that would be enough for them to remain financially viable? If the city of Melbourne isn't viable for 9 clubs anymore, why would it be viable for a 10th?

It's the demographic and cultural shift that has occurred in Melbourne over the last 25 years . The kids and social aspirants have moved into Carlton , Fitzroy, Collingwood , Richmond , spreading out to Hawthorn and beyond. They're the teams they want to follow. Fitzroy itself is now a latte hotspot. Fitzroy was in actual fact all set to play out of Brisbane and they won a final and the players and officials wouldn't go. But the Brisbane Lions games in Melbourne are always well attended with the biggest H/A crowd ever recently IIRC. Can't say that about GC , GWS, FREO, Crows etc . Why ??

It's all past history and irrelevant now. Just a misstep. The AFL had been gunning for Fitzroy after the Dogs takeover fell over and they subsequently failed to get the Melbourne/Hawthorn merger over the line. So there were 4 clubs that were on the block. Fitzroy drew the short straw.

 

[morsie]

It's the demographic and cultural shift that has occurred in Melbourne over the last 25 years . The kids and social aspirants have moved into Carlton , Fitzroy, Collingwood , Richmond , spreading out to Hawthorn and beyond. They're the teams they want to follow. Fitzroy itself is now a latte hotspot. Fitzroy was in actual fact all set to play out of Brisbane and they won a final and the players and officials wouldn't go. But the Brisbane Lions games in Melbourne are always well attended with the biggest H/A crowd ever recently IIRC. Can't say that about GC , GWS, FREO, Crows etc . Why ??

It's all past history and irrelevant now. Just a misstep. The AFL had been gunning for Fitzroy after the Dogs takeover fell over and they subsequently failed to get the Melbourne/Hawthorn merger over the line. So there were 4 clubs that were on the block. Fitzroy drew the short straw.

AFL gunning for Fitzroy long before the Footscray stuff.Fitzroy didn't help itself by being managed appallingly.

 

[martinson]

AFL gunning for Fitzroy long before the Footscray stuff.Fitzroy didn't help itself by being managed appallingly.

They weren't the only ones.

It was that lethal Samuel. He'd earmarked them 5 years prior. No support at AFL level whereas the other clubs had allies there.

The mismanagement at Fitzroy pales into insignificance with what we saw at some clubs afterwards with all the money coming in from TV/Broadcast.

 

[MSB ROYS]

Would rather live in Fitzroy than North Melbourne. Still I did live in Carlton North, Fitzroy and Parkville when I was at uni, so maybe a bit biased.

 

[BangyBangy]

Would rather live in Fitzroy than North Melbourne. Still I did live in Carlton North, Fitzroy and Parkville when I was at uni, so maybe a bit biased.

Nope, I'm the same. I'm bayside now but used to live in Sth Yarra, Prahran etc. Could see myself living in any of those areas, but North Melbourne was always more an industrial suburb than anything to me.

 

[davemc_lions]

prob off this thread.. honestly after all the backlash you think the AFL not want to merge or move a team again.
Although I think a Tassie team needs to come in and if they want no bye needs 2 teams Tassie and NT? or ACT or WA3/SA3
There are really too many Vic teams so you could see where the AFL would rather nudge a team. even push them

With Noble could just be a playing group who he butted heads with.
Lots of coaches got off side of some players who then fester through the group.

 

[Roylion]

AFL gunning for Fitzroy long before the Footscray stuff.Fitzroy didn't help itself by being managed appallingly.

Could you go into some details about this mismanagement?

 

[morsie]

Could you go into some details about this mismanagement?

Selling Pert to Collingwood without telling the rest of the Board.Price from memory was ,$100k and 2 draft picks.zNew admin went to the League and tried to overturn it.Unfortunately the ,100 k was against draft rules

Oh no said Collingwood we didn't agree to pay 100 that would be against draft rules

 

[morsie]

Selling Pert to Collingwood without telling the rest of the Board.Price from memory was ,$100k and 2 draft picks.zNew admin went to the League and tried to overturn it.Unfortunately the ,100 k was against draft rules

Oh no said Collingwood we didn't agree to pay 100 that would be against draft rules

CEO Croxford who didn't like football or footballers

 

[morsie]

CEO Croxford who didn't like football or footballers

A few others but that will do

 

[martinson]

Selling Pert to Collingwood without telling the rest of the Board.Price from memory was ,$100k and 2 draft picks.zNew admin went to the League and tried to overturn it.Unfortunately the ,100 k was against draft rules

Oh no said Collingwood we didn't agree to pay 100 that would be against draft rules

That's just huge mate.

When they were in the death throes and Perty had 2 ACL's.

Other clubs were supported through massive mismanagement and still are.

Samuel put his report to the AFL outlining how they could get rid of them and how it would benefit the competition. Took him 5 or 6 years to do it but he got there.

Still see some are still happy to put the boots into Fitzroy. After they've been gone 25 years.

 

[Roylion]

Selling Pert to Collingwood without telling the rest of the Board.

Is that it? That's the best example you can come up with? Selling a player who had a contract dispute with the club?

Pert, who had ruptured his ACL in 1990 was traded to Collingwood for Picks 7 and 20 at the end of 1991 season, when he was out of contract. The money for Pert's 1991 salary when he was out for the year was to be paid by one of Collingwood's sponsors instead of Fitzroy, paid in instalments and disguised as membership income. Whatever the case it was going to save Fitzroy money.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

prob off this thread.. honestly after all the backlash you think the AFL not want to merge or move a team again.
Although I think a Tassie team needs to come in and if they want no bye needs 2 teams Tassie and NT? or ACT or WA3/SA3
There are really too many Vic teams so you could see where the AFL would rather nudge a team. even push them.

Just wanted to add on this topic briefly, in regards to future expansion of the AFL.

The more you hear on this topic in the news lately, the more you would think that the next two “standalone” teams that will enter the AFL competitions by the late 2020s - early 2030s will be Hobart/Tasmania and Darwin/Northern Territory (rightly or wrongly).

However, once the 19th & 20th teams are filled, then things will become interesting in how is the best way to expand the AFL competitions to provide more representation of cities/towns around the country.

Personally for me, there are just too many teams located in Victoria and even though it isn’t a massive issue right now, I wouldn’t be surprised if the AFL decide to go down that route of relocation Victorian clubs in our lifetime again, as there is not enough talent in Australia to have more than 22 teams in the AFL IMO and would help increase the financial dollar from broadcasting networks and sponsorship partners from all across the country, while help continue the reign of the AFL being the Number 1 Winter Sporting Code in Australia over other sports such as Rugby League, Rugby Union & Soccer (in the future), as a result.

For my format, SA3 & WA3 would have their own teams given their past history of the sport in the SANFL/WAFL competitions and those state-wide clubs, while ACT, North Queensland/QLD3 & NSW3 (Northern Sydney) would have relocated teams from Victoria (North Melbourne, St. Kilda, Western Bulldogs) to help grow the sport in non-AFL rusted states while also having a slight presence in Victoria similar to South Melbourne & Fitzroy in the past with Sydney and us.

Then, you would have the following teams in the AFL/AFLW Competitions:

Adelaide Crows | Brisbane Lions | Canberra Bulldogs | Carlton Blues | Collingwood Magpies | Darwin Larrakias | Essendon Bombers | Fremantle Dockers | Geelong Cats | Gold Coast Suns | Hawthorn Hawks | Melbourne Demons | North Queensland Saints | Northern Sydney Kangaroos | Norwood-Sturt Scorpions | Perth Rangers | Port Adelaide Power | Richmond Tigers | Sydney Swans | Tasmania Devils | West Coast Eagles | Western Sydney Giants

As a result of those Victorian clubs relocating interstate, you would then have 22 teams (over 25 teams if all teams were created from scratch) and can have a 25 week season (23 games each team plays) + 5 week finals series (Top 10 teams) with the following format:

• Every team plays each other once (21 rounds)*
• Play state-group rivals twice (NSW, QLD, SA, VIC, WA, ROA) (2 rounds)
• Weekly international break/state-group bye (2 rounds)
• Top 10 finals series (5 weeks)

*- Clubs that play 11 home games during the season would sell 1 game to overseas market to ensure the game’s growth outside of Australia. Would swap vice verse with the other clubs (who only played 10 home games in previous season) in the following season to ensure fairness of all clubs.

I know it’s quite radical and controversial my format and given it’s a sensitive topic for some of us as a result of our relevant history with Fitzroy and how much some of our supporters had to endure with that drama, I didn’t want to make it out of spite of forcing teams out of the AFL.

However, unless the AFL move those small Victorian clubs to the VFL (which is highly unlikely as well given the court settlements clubs would take on the AFL), it’s the only option the AFL might have to ensure the competitions are as fair & ethical as humanly possible (even if it still favours Victoria greatly). Otherwise, if the AFL continue making new teams up with brand new history labels, the talent depth of clubs and the competition will suffer more greatly and the playing standard of playerswill continue to drop as a result.

 

[Viceregal]

... it’s the only option the AFL might have to ensure the competitions are as fair & ethical as humanly possible (even if it still favours Victoria greatly). Otherwise, if the AFL continue making new teams up with brand new history labels, the talent depth of clubs and the competition will suffer more greatly and the playing standard of players will continue to drop as a result.

Without going into the logistics of your solution ... it is based on the assumptions in the quoted paragraph.

Do we have any evidence to indicate that the AFL makes decisions on the basis of fairness, ethics, or the standard of the players or the competition as a whole?