Universal Love David Teague

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plentyblckie

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That stat will only get worse if Covid-19 is still around next year.

The big issue that many are failing to discuss is our inability to train full match simulation and integrate everyone into a single team drill to practice our structures.

As it stands, I believe they can only practice in groups of 8 or so, which means they can't practice team structures the way they would in a normal season.
Thats a bit of a cop out. It happened in few games last yr as well.
 

Poorman53

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I'd hire you to be our coach.

Why is Teague so stubborn to employ different tactic during the game?
Surely he is a smart enough coach with experience to realise what is happening during games and how to react. But all I see is nothing...
Just no changes, nothing happens.
Stubborn is exactly what he is. In his game plan and his selection.
 

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Blue_Fusion

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In true carlton fashion we're back to culling coaches. Yes Teague can improve...he's what 20 odd games into his senior coaching career. Yes we all got excited by finals but we're not ready yet. Fact remains we improved quite a bit this year.
Depends how you judge improvement. Do you base it solely on results? Since Teague took over in 2019 we won 6/11. This year 7/17 (based on my wild prediction that we won't beat the Lions). So the results haven't really improved.

Personally, I look at the improvement in being able to execute a game plan and the development of the youngsters. I could care less if guys like Simmo are having a better year in 2020 vs 2019... means nothing.

The execution in game plan has looked equally as good as it has dreadful. There are still huge issues around stoppages, transition and f50 delivery. That's not going to change with Barker and Stanton...

You look at our rebuild and analyse each player we drafted/traded in that were seen to be part of our next flag push:
(red = gone backwards, green = gone forwards, blue = going ok, purple = unknown)

Dow: Only in his third year and clearly has things to work on, but unfortunately he hasn't given us anything this year. Injury has played it's part in that.
LoB: Also, only his third year. Played his lone game yesterday, not much positive to say about his progress other than, he hasn't done enough.
Walsh: Champion. He goes about it the right way and will be our captain one day
McKay: His major downside would be his 2nd efforts, but he's done enough to show he'll be our main target along Charlie for the next decade. Had to deal with dreadful delivery, but 18 goals from 12 games is a pretty good return.
C.Curnow: Can't say for obvious reasons.
Weitering: Definitely stepping up and showing he'll be a leader. He's grown physically and mentally and is now the most reliable defender in our team.
Plowman: Cops way more crap than he should. He does make glaring mistakes at times but gives his all. I think he's definitely good enough to be best 22 in a premiership side.
Marchbank: Unfortunately injured again. Still young though and we've shown faith in him by re-signing him for 2 years. I'm still hopeful for him.
McGovern: Yuk. Cut our losses and throw him out.
TDK: Stepping up and really been impressive. Amazing ground level work. He's our ruckman for the next 10 years.
Willo: Been ok in a patchy season for him. Next year will be quite insightful as to whether he makes it or not.
Polson: Has improved and dropped undeservedly I thought. But having said that, can't see him being best 22 in a flag side. He's handy back up but with list cuts might not keep his spot.
SPS: Shown glimpses. We've been saying that for years. First few that was acceptable, but this year despite being played out of pos imo he hasn't shown enough and if he's part of our midfield next year he needs to be more consistent otherwise he's trade bait. If he's played in defence again he won't show much again.
Martin: Had a pretty good year and cemented his spot.
Stocker: Can't say... we'll have to wait and see. Was promising last year.
Pitto: Been ok early half of season but not an impressive second half.
Cuningham: Keeps being played out of pos... give the guy more midfield time next year pls.
Fisher: Not sure being a small forward is the right pos for him. Done some nice things to show some improvement despite missing the first half of the season. 4 goals against the Eagles, got us going against the Swans, played a good game against the Suns
JSOS: Needs to replace McGovern asap. Jack will give his all but he's also a smart footballer for the most part.
Setterfield: Really showing something. He's on the up and will be a big part of our future success.

So, 6 players that I think have stepped up, 4 that have regressed and 6 that are going ok. 4 in the unknown bracket.

TL,DR; Judge our improvement not by W/L ratio, but by how our youngsters are going and the execution of the game plan because that's where the future success is.
 

Doro

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I also cant believe we let rid of Playfair over some of our assistants. He was forwards coach during sydneys premiership era. Even if he took a step back into a line coach he would have been better than Barker/Bruce
I knew very little about Playfair as a coaches coach when he was hired and I'm still none the wiser.
 

Matty411

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Depends how you judge improvement. Do you base it solely on results? Since Teague took over in 2019 we won 6/11. This year 7/17 (based on my wild prediction that we won't beat the Lions). So the results haven't really improved.

Personally, I look at the improvement in being able to execute a game plan and the development of the youngsters. I could care less if guys like Simmo are having a better year in 2020 vs 2019... means nothing.

The execution in game plan has looked equally as good as it has dreadful. There are still huge issues around stoppages, transition and f50 delivery. That's not going to change with Barker and Stanton...

You look at our rebuild and analyse each player we drafted/traded in that were seen to be part of our next flag push:
(red = gone backwards, green = gone forwards, blue = going ok, purple = unknown)

Dow: Only in his third year and clearly has things to work on, but unfortunately he hasn't given us anything this year. Injury has played it's part in that.
LoB: Also, only his third year. Played his lone game yesterday, not much positive to say about his progress other than, he hasn't done enough.
Walsh: Champion. He goes about it the right way and will be our captain one day
McKay: His major downside would be his 2nd efforts, but he's done enough to show he'll be our main target along Charlie for the next decade. Had to deal with dreadful delivery, but 18 goals from 12 games is a pretty good return.
C.Curnow: Can't say for obvious reasons.
Weitering: Definitely stepping up and showing he'll be a leader. He's grown physically and mentally and is now the most reliable defender in our team.
Plowman: Cops way more crap than he should. He does make glaring mistakes at times but gives his all. I think he's definitely good enough to be best 22 in a premiership side.
Marchbank: Unfortunately injured again. Still young though and we've shown faith in him by re-signing him for 2 years. I'm still hopeful for him.
McGovern: Yuk. Cut our losses and throw him out.
TDK: Stepping up and really been impressive. Amazing ground level work. He's our ruckman for the next 10 years.
Willo: Been ok in a patchy season for him. Next year will be quite insightful as to whether he makes it or not.
Polson: Has improved and dropped undeservedly I thought. But having said that, can't see him being best 22 in a flag side. He's handy back up but with list cuts might not keep his spot.
SPS: Shown glimpses. We've been saying that for years. First few that was acceptable, but this year despite being played out of pos imo he hasn't shown enough and if he's part of our midfield next year he needs to be more consistent otherwise he's trade bait. If he's played in defence again he won't show much again.
Martin: Had a pretty good year and cemented his spot.
Stocker: Can't say... we'll have to wait and see. Was promising last year.
Pitto: Been ok early half of season but not an impressive second half.
Cuningham: Keeps being played out of pos... give the guy more midfield time next year pls.
Fisher: Not sure being a small forward is the right pos for him. Done some nice things to show some improvement despite missing the first half of the season. 4 goals against the Eagles, got us going against the Swans, played a good game against the Suns
JSOS: Needs to replace McGovern asap. Jack will give his all but he's also a smart footballer for the most part.
Setterfield: Really showing something. He's on the up and will be a big part of our future success.

So, 6 players that I think have stepped up, 4 that have regressed and 6 that are going ok. 4 in the unknown bracket.

TL,DR; Judge our improvement not by W/L ratio, but by how our youngsters are going and the execution of the game plan because that's where the future success is.
Fair analysis, BF. I'd argue that Willo has gone forwards after putting together a good block of games for the first time in his career. Probably starting to trail off a little now, but will be much better after a strong off-season. Will be in most starting 22's for Round 1, 2021 and I firmly believe a key cog in #17.
 

The Flying Doormat

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Fair analysis, BF. I'd argue that Willo has gone forwards after putting together a good block of games for the first time in his career. Probably starting to trail off a little now, but will be much better after a strong off-season. Will be in most starting 22's for Round 1, 2021 and I firmly believe a key cog in #17.
The fact he stayed on the park all year in itself is progress.
 

lukep_86

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I've been reading a lot of the comments in the thread with interest and decided to do some of my own research. Whilst our win/loss ratio hasn't really improved , I don't think this should be the only indicator.

Some positives:

For 2020, we have been able to reduce scores against by roughly 25 points (this was up until the Sydney game and I realise this is a little skewed due to shortened quarters), but this is a massive plus IMO.

We have been 'in' pretty much every game we've played this year, taken it up to some very good teams and won some games we weren't expected to win. Fix our goal kicking slightly, even by 1 or even 2 a game and our season looks VERY different. This is a glaring difference to previous years.

When we are on, we're playing a very attractive style of footy.

Plenty to like about our list and what some of our players have done this year including: Martin, Walsh, TDK and Willo to name a few.

Some not so positives:

We have scored 22 more behinds than our opponents this year (again, this was up to the Sydney game). To me, this is part of the reason teams quickly score 4 or more unanswered goals against us. We are getting enough of the ball, just struggle to convert. I think that our forwards missing gettable shots is part of this, but I also think our entries mean our forward are taking marks in spots that make it tougher to convert.

We're ranked 4th in inside 50s per game, yet can't seem to convert this to goals. Our entries are horrendous and need to be fixed ASAP.

When we get the ball into our forward 50, we struggle to lock it in and it seems to come out so easily. Thankfully we have a very good defence, but without that we'd be getting hammered every week.

From what I can tell on TV, we struggle to lay and hold tackles. Even if they don't pay incorrect disposal, it would at least create a stoppage.


I think overall we are playing better and I'm excited to see what we can do in 2021, especially with some additions to the list.
 

Broadside

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I'd argue that Willo has gone forwards after putting together a good block of games for the first time in his career. Probably starting to trail off a little now, but will be much better after a strong off-season.
if he has the tank for it he should play wing if he gets another solid pre season without injuries.

I feel this year has been mediocre, would have liked to see a lot more improvement from our youngsters - arguably some have been curtailed by us playing a "mature" team that made us competitive most weeks but perhaps wasn't best for our medium term outlook.

We really have little idea if LOB is going to make it - he should have played more than a game. And I know Cottrell wasn't great last week (other than winning the game at the death) but it sent a terrible signal dropping him.
 
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Sharks On A Plane

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The dissatisfaction with Teague is ridiculous imo.

It takes time to get things right. Richmond put up with six years of garbage from Hardwick, Geelong had a long period of failure under Bomber before it clicked.

I can't believe the amount of whinging that has gone on. This has been such an enjoyable year for me, have loved being in every game and looking forward to the next week. Compare that to the Bolton era when there was barely anything to talk about or hope for each week, just watching Cripps do it alone. We are more than competitive every week, despite these shocking lapses.

We are close to clicking. The penny may just have dropped this week that we need speed around the footy - look for Cuningham and Gibbons to be given more midfield minutes next week. Yes this would be a belated move by Teague, but it's not going to happen instantly for him either. He has been staunchly sticking to a brief of winning games of footy, and has hurt us with some calls at the selection table (pretty much every club does this by the way, supporters are never happy - look at the Bulldogs as Exhibit A).

But imo he has done a lot right with our culture and has instilled an expectation to win. Yes there's a lot of room for improvement, yes I want to see some vets transitioned out of the side or out of midfield positions. But I think he's done a good job in a clusterfu** of a season.

We are ready to explode. Harry is on the verge. Weiters is already there. De Koning is putting his hand up.

This off season is hugely important. Get a Zac Williams and possibly Papley and a lot will change. The future is actually bright this time, and not just in a "we say that every year" sense.
 

gbatman

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I'd hire you to be our coach.

Why is Teague so stubborn to employ different tactic during the game?
Surely he is a smart enough coach with experience to realise what is happening during games and how to react. But all I see is nothing...
Just no changes, nothing happens.
Let's give him more time and see if we can get some good people around him. Can take a long time to teach players game structures and get them to adapt in games. Get a feeling that perhaps he's not really trying to do too much at this stage in terms of playing structures. Just looks like we're out there "playing footy".

In all fairness the team doesn't implement the game plan we have very well. It might be a hectic go forward quick at all costs, keep the forwards at home and deal with the congestion game plan but i'm sure kicking the ball down the opposition's throat is not a part of it.

If we don't see the game plan evolve next year and we keep seeing us give away leads and give up leads because we don't have a defensive game plan then we have a problem. Then we can start pointing the finger at the coaches and leadership on the field.

Think we need to give it some time to work this all out.
 

FRUMPY

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For 2020, we have been able to reduce scores against by roughly 25 points (this was up until the Sydney game and I realise this is a little skewed due to shortened quarters), but this is a massive plus IMO.
Devils advocate - shortened quarters and, without looking at the stats, i presume there has been a massive drop in scoring all through the competition (due to boring as batshit football being played - and atrocious skills across the AFL)
 

BigFrizz36

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Appoint senior assistant immediately

Wipe out all line coaches expect Amos

This is going to be hard with a reduction in soft cap.


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Not particularly hard. There is the greatest pool of assistant coaches available ever looking for a job and probably prepared to take far less than normal to get one.
 

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Broadside

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let me preface this by saying I support Teague long term, but....

in the case of Clarkson, Fagan (not sure about Hinkley, Hardwick) their results are skewed because their first season or two was in the midst of the rebuild. Teague came in at the end of it when many of the pieces were in place. Would his win / loss look so good if we'd sacked Bolton 2 years earlier and replaced him with Teague? that would be comparing apples with apples.
 

BigFrizz36

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I've been reading a lot of the comments in the thread with interest and decided to do some of my own research. Whilst our win/loss ratio hasn't really improved , I don't think this should be the only indicator.

Some positives:

For 2020, we have been able to reduce scores against by roughly 25 points (this was up until the Sydney game and I realise this is a little skewed due to shortened quarters), but this is a massive plus IMO.

We have been 'in' pretty much every game we've played this year, taken it up to some very good teams and won some games we weren't expected to win. Fix our goal kicking slightly, even by 1 or even 2 a game and our season looks VERY different. This is a glaring difference to previous years.

When we are on, we're playing a very attractive style of footy.

Plenty to like about our list and what some of our players have done this year including: Martin, Walsh, TDK and Willo to name a few.

Some not so positives:

We have scored 22 more behinds than our opponents this year (again, this was up to the Sydney game). To me, this is part of the reason teams quickly score 4 or more unanswered goals against us. We are getting enough of the ball, just struggle to convert. I think that our forwards missing gettable shots is part of this, but I also think our entries mean our forward are taking marks in spots that make it tougher to convert.

We're ranked 4th in inside 50s per game, yet can't seem to convert this to goals. Our entries are horrendous and need to be fixed ASAP.

When we get the ball into our forward 50, we struggle to lock it in and it seems to come out so easily. Thankfully we have a very good defence, but without that we'd be getting hammered every week.

From what I can tell on TV, we struggle to lay and hold tackles. Even if they don't pay incorrect disposal, it would at least create a stoppage.


I think overall we are playing better and I'm excited to see what we can do in 2021, especially with some additions to the list.
Excellent post. Clearly there a lot of pieces in the puzzle that need improving but having a fit Charlie Curnow would (I believe) make us on average a 3 goal better team per week. There's never any guarantees that he gets fit/stays fit/other important players get injured but just imagine us as a 3 goal better team each week.

One gun midfielder that compliments what we have, Charlie Curnow, Natural improvement from many including Kemp showing us what might be, Stocker, Dow, Setterfield,T.D.K., a fit JOSOS, Marchy and Newman and we are thereabouts.
 

Gavstar

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I'm really concerned by some of Teagues comments.

We're not far off it.... are you kidding me. We just lost to the bottom team in the AFL.

I think the elite marking ability of Levi and McKay is covering up for disgraceful forward 50 entries

Cripps individual clearance work at times is making us look better than we are.

I also thinking our winning lots of close games while a positive in one way, in another it shows how close to an absolute shocker of a year we had.

Is there a team in the AFL with worse delivery into the forward 50.

The only line I would give a tick to this year is the defence. Amos you get a new contract...... the rest of the line coaches happy to shuffle them off.
 

Bokan

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I also cant believe we let rid of Playfair over some of our assistants. He was forwards coach during sydneys premiership era. Even if he took a step back into a line coach he would have been better than Barker/Bruce
Genuinely don't see playfair moving from a role of high importance such as technical director (or whatever you wish to call it), to line coach, wouldn't happen and didn't happen.

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Bokan

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I have been ridiculed for saying this, but David Teague is no different to Reece Shaw.

They are both apprentice senior coaches.

We should not have been so reactive in appointing him after a couple of wins last year when our rigid game style was freed up. It is NOT an accurate representation of future performance looking at you (thylacine- poster on here)

Brett Ratten should have been given another crack, a well respected Carlton Legend who did his apprenticeship at another club after being sacked originally.

Or dare I say it Ross Lyon, I can’t remember one of his teams giving up a 6 goal momentum switch week after week.

Piss poor management.
Shaw situation is entirely different. Under Scott north were ok, under Shaw they are bad. Under Bolton we were crap, now we are ok.
Ignoring that, in Scott's last month as Kangas coach he had already brought about a change in game plan - this game plan was merely copied but Shaw and so unsurprisingly there has been no real difference at north. It's the same game plan, just a different figurehead.

At carlton it is pretty bloody clear Teague's game plan is vastly different to Bolton's. Teague, unlike Shaw is actually being his own senior coach and bringing his own ideas and game plan into the club. To declare the two as similar is to lack real insight into either club.

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lukep_86

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Devils advocate - shortened quarters and, without looking at the stats, i presume there has been a massive drop in scoring all through the competition (due to boring as batshit football being played - and atrocious skills across the AFL)
This is correct but even so, I'm fairly confident our average losing margin has decreased this year (tried to find stats but couldn't find anything) and I think it's a combination of us scoring a little better and our backline tightening up. I probably could calculate it and provide some data but life is hard enough at the moment.


Excellent post. Clearly there a lot of pieces in the puzzle that need improving but having a fit Charlie Curnow would (I believe) make us on average a 3 goal better team per week. There's never any guarantees that he gets fit/stays fit/other important players get injured but just imagine us as a 3 goal better team each week.

One gun midfielder that compliments what we have, Charlie Curnow, Natural improvement from many including Kemp showing us what might be, Stocker, Dow, Setterfield,T.D.K., a fit JOSOS, Marchy and Newman and we are thereabouts.
Thank you..I definitely think we'll be better with Charlie in the side. He should score 1 -2 goals a week and hopefully create at least 1 more.

Those inclusions you mentioned, fingers crossed Zac Williams and another recruit.. plus continued growth from Martin, Walshy and others and 2021 is looking pretty good.
 

Jeremias

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This is correct but even so, I'm fairly confident our average losing margin has decreased this year (tried to find stats but couldn't find anything) and I think it's a combination of us scoring a little better and our backline tightening up. I probably could calculate it and provide some data but life is hard enough at the moment.
2019: 28.5 points
2020: 16.5 points

Certainly an improvement there, even when taking into account the shorter quarters.
 

FRUMPY

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2019: 28.5 points
2020: 16.5 points

Certainly an improvement there, even when taking into account the shorter quarters.
Plus you are comparing it to a season when our coach was sacked, so you'd hope our losing margin average was down

Plus stats can be misleading, last year our average winning margin under Bolton was 44 points.....

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therubbernub

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Re: development of our kids. It's a tough cycle to break.

You bring in kids who naturally look up to senior players. Who are our senior players? Simmo, Murphy, Kreuzer, Betts. Curnow and Casboult could be included here. Not exactly inspiring in terms of setting an example on and off the field.

We bring in players like Walsh and Weiteiring - the 2 young players who have stood and out really made their mark recently. You'd say their professional attitude makes them stand our from all our other younger players.

It's naturally not easy or typical for young players to look up to other younger players in terms how how to apply themselves, which is what makes it so difficult to break the cycle.

Now, obviously Weitering and Walsh were both number 1 draft picks...how long will it take for LOB, Dow, SPS, Fisher, Cunningham, etc. etc. to become consistent, reliable players week in week out? Who knows, but that's when we can really expect a move up the table. The kids need to grow up and develop otherwise the 'rebuild' aspect from the draft was just a waste.
I have to disagree.
Simmo: courage of a Lion
Murph: Can be inspirational on his day. Agree he can go missing
Kreuzer: Just keeps going -all day. His problem is injuries not setting an example
Betts: The wizard may be past his best but he is a great example to young players
Curnow: Busts his gut every match
Casboult: A great example of getting the best out of yourself through persistence
 

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