Universal Love David Teague

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Stamos

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Craig leaves, media criticises the dour game style, and all of a sudden Bolts is talking about adding 'attacking layers' to a team of kids and battlers that's just lost Gibbs and Docherty - it all screams of executive interference

After a poor start to the year, we'd just smashed the Dogs and were torching the Hawks when he instructed the players to change how we were playing, and we coughed up a 5 goal half time lead.
The following week he left Ed stranded in the forwardline while North (North!) destroyed us in the centre.
Bolton has nobody to blame but himself.
 

El Topo

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After a poor start to the year, we'd just smashed the Dogs and were torching the Hawks when he instructed the players to change how we were playing, and we coughed up a 5 goal half time lead.
The following week he left Ed stranded in the forwardline while North (North!) destroyed us in the centre.
Bolton has nobody to blame but himself.

The club hung Bolton out to dry from the end of 2017, but I agree that this is when he lost the players
 

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He didn't lose them as a person. They were quote fond of him.
Uh no - there was a 'faction' that was deadset sick of his micromanaging and 'apparent' lack of progress. The friction was huge, I've quite literally spoken to a player and a few others about it. There were plenty of players who ended up resenting him.

He was popular for a long time and it helped keep patience in check but the tipping point was when enough players stopped playing for him. Not exaggerating, I liked Bolton and defended him immensely on this board for years. Just relaying what I've learnt over time since.

Edit: Resent might be too strong a word tbf, not resented just 'tired' of it ig is better
 
Uh no - there was a 'faction' that was deadset sick of his micromanaging and 'apparent' lack of progress. The friction was huge, I've quite literally spoken to a player and a few others about it. There were plenty of players who ended up resenting him.

He was popular for a long time and it helped keep patience in check but the tipping point was when enough players stopped playing for him. Not exaggerating, I liked Bolton and defended him immensely on this board for years. Just relaying what I've learnt over time since.

Edit: Resent might be too strong a word tbf, not resented just 'tired' of it ig is better

A player and a few others? Meaning one player who feels a certain way and others who may or may not be directly in the know?

How was this player tracking? Getting games? A leader?

I feel there are a few disillusioned players at every club at any given moment. Hence what we see during the trade period.

As for micromanaging, the coaching advisor would have helped here.
 
Uh no - there was a 'faction' that was deadset sick of his micromanaging and 'apparent' lack of progress. The friction was huge, I've quite literally spoken to a player and a few others about it. There were plenty of players who ended up resenting him.

He was popular for a long time and it helped keep patience in check but the tipping point was when enough players stopped playing for him. Not exaggerating, I liked Bolton and defended him immensely on this board for years. Just relaying what I've learnt over time since.

Edit: Resent might be too strong a word tbf, not resented just 'tired' of it ig is better


I've been hearing exactly the same thing from a number of sources ever since he was sacked (including players). He hadn't lost everyone but significant enough a portion of the playing group and others around the club that the change had to be made at the time.

This doesn't in any way diminish my appreciation for the wonderful job he did early in his tenure of bringing the whole club back together. Bolton did a lot of good things for Carlton, it's just too bad that he wasn't the one to keep taking us further.
 
We have long been a club where the tail wags the dog. Our last 5 coaches were sacked early in the season and/or under contract.

Sooner or later, we are going to have to back in a coach and start weeding out players who won't give their all.

Edit:

Wayne Brittain - sacked at the end of 2002 - contracted for 2003
Denis Pagan - sacked after round 16, 2007 - contracted for 2008
Brett Rattan - sacked after round 21, 2012 - contracted for 2013
Mick Malthouse - sacked after round 8, 2015 - final year of contract
Brendan Bolton - sacked after round 11, 2019 - contracted for 2020*

*Was given job protection at the end of 2018 through his first coaching contract with the club
 
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Everyone is an expert before the fact and after. None of it is provable and I would think if he kept the job we would have started winning.
The players lost the games and he paid the price. Same old story.


You're right Blue, he paid the price when a team that was talented enough to be winning wasn't doing it. That is the coach's job, to have them winning games when they should be. If it's not happening you have to look at why it's not happening. There was obviously a decision made by people more closely involved than we are that they couldn't salvage or remedy the situation without a change.

It saddened me at the time as I really wanted him to succeed but that's footy and we move on.
 

Blue and Blue

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You're right Blue, he paid the price when a team that was talented enough to be winning wasn't doing it. That is the coach's job, to have them winning games when they should be. If it's not happening you have to look at why it's not happening. There was obviously a decision made by people more closely involved than we are that they couldn't salvage or remedy the situation without a change.

It saddened me at the time as I really wanted him to succeed but that's footy and we move on.
The answer is I think Gab simply that the players were not good enough collectively at that point and expectations were set too high. A hard winning team mentality takes far more time than Bolts was given working from scratch as we basically were. And its still taking time. That 66 games was a bad way to frame it because that was really about how many drafts to get a list good enough to build from. Never was a point of instant success.
 
The answer is I think Gab simply that the players were not good enough collectively at that point and expectations were set too high. A hard winning team mentality takes far more time than Bolts was given working from scratch as we basically were. And its still taking time. That 66 games was a bad way to frame it because that was really about how many drafts to get a list good enough to build from. Never was a point of instant success.


That '66 game thing' was terrible, it was never explained and all it did was build an unrealistic expectation that we'd be ready to go after that, that we'd be seriously contending. The rebuild wasn't sold properly to begin with.
 

Stamos

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We have long been a club where the tail wags the dog. Our last 5 coaches were sacked early in the season and/or under contract.

Sooner or later, we are going to have to back in a coach and start weeding out players who won't give their all.

Edit:

Wayne Brittain - sacked at the end of 2002 - contracted for 2003
Denis Pagan - sacked after round 16, 2007 - contracted for 2008
Brett Rattan - sacked after round 21, 2012 - contracted for 2013
Mick Malthouse - sacked after round 8, 2015 - final year of contract
Brendan Bolton - sacked after round 11, 2019 - contracted for 2020*

*Was given job protection at the end of 2018 through his first coaching contract with the club

Reckon the players only sacked 2 of them.
 

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Reckon the players only sacked 2 of them.

3 for mine.

Pagan, Malthouse and Bolton.

Brittain and Ratten were sacked by powerbrokers.
 

Stamos

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3 for mine.

Pagan, Malthouse and Bolton.

Brittain and Ratten were sacked by powerbrokers.

Fair. Think Malthouse was probably more to do with the head office and the board than the players.

I wouldn't say that overall we have an issue with the tail wagging the dog. Think there was a pretty strong reason for Bolton losing the players.
 
Fair. Think Malthouse was probably more to do with the head office and the board than the players.

I wouldn't say that overall we have an issue with the tail wagging the dog. Think there was a pretty strong reason for Bolton losing the players.

mediumsizered ... do you reckon we have an issue with the tail wagging the dog? ;)
 

ray8182

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this is coming from my personal view.

I didnt mind his style of coaching, as he got us to finals for 4 years in a row. Only time freo has made finals for 2 years in a row was under Ross Lyon of 2012-15.

Saying that, he got the best of a Limited freo side. Dont care what anyone thinks. Go Look who had the better forward line in the 2013 Grand final between hawks and freo. Hawks had Buddy, Roughhead, Cyril Rioli, Puopolo, Hale and Gunston. Freo had Pavlich, Mayne, Ballantyne, Walters and Zac Clarke.


I have posted this on the main Board. I dont think Teague is a bad coach. Boltons 2016-19 stint wasnt bad if you Judge him by the kids he played. Its more of a face rebuilds are harder and longer. You cant got from bottom 4 to finals in 2-3 years. Actual rebuilds now days are 5-6 years minium those 18-20 year olds you get in the 1st year are 23-25 year olds 5 years down the track.

As I said Brendan Bolton had the toughest part of the rebuild and the toughest part is the start of it. From his 2016-19 stint, the 1st draft was 2015 and Carlton got Jacob Weitering and Harry McKay. Thats your Full back and Full forward settled.

The point is Brendan Bolton had to play a lot of 18-19 year olds. Those 18-19 year olds in 2016 where 22-23 year olds under Teague at the end of 2019.

History shows to make finals now, the Bulk of your best players are in that prime age 26-30 year old range. I look at Carltons list and Most of them are in that 21-24 year old range.

everyone is talking about Trading and Free Agency. My opinion is this you dont want to lose Cripps. You sure as hell dont want to lose Harry Mckay, especially when he is about to hit his prime years.

Think this is an excellent post especially when talking about a rebuild and how long it takes to get your draftees into the right age bracket for success.

Note Carlton’s rebuild is a complete rebuild from scratch.

In Carlton’s rebuild the first wave of draftees in 2015 will take 7 or 8 years to get into the 26-30 bracket with later draftees still being in there early 20’s. This might actually be the true length of a rebuild from scratch like Carlton’s.

The Western Bulldogs are an interesting case in terms of rebuild. I think they started there’s in 2013, drafting Bontempelli. Although they won the premiership in 2016, 2021 might be the first year they finish top 4 after the home and away. That’s 8 years. 2016 looks like an outlier if you were to graph there results over this period.

Rebuilds path to success have varied from club to club but l think we underestimate how difficult and lengthy they can be. Which is bad news for any coach who takes over early in a rebuild.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Pentatonic Flat Fifth

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Mick Malthouse is one of the longest serving coaches in AFL history (the most?).

His tenure at West Coast saw him handed one of the most powerful teams in AFL history with a club built from an entire state of champions - he arrived at the perfect time of 3 years in then won 2 flags.

Quite frankly he should have won 10. I genuinely think it would have been hard for any coach to lose with that list.

If you remove the tenure of Mick at West Coast - still an incredibly long coaching career spanning 20 years he has one of the worst win loss record in AFL coaching history.

That really is terrible.
 

Pentatonic Flat Fifth

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mediumsizered ... do you reckon we have an issue with the tail wagging the dog? ;)

I've seen plenty of coaches completely lose the players - amazing teams go from winning to complete chaos.

Losing the players is entirely on the coach - it may well be caused by other mitigating factors but ultimately if the coach loses the players thats on the coach.
 

Pentatonic Flat Fifth

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Teague selections this week make me further doubt his ability. Has favourites who are untouchable despite months of poor form


I agree with this and his comments on this issue have been incredibly disheartening. His main coaching tactic post taking over from Bolton was to play the older players which saw him get immediate success. Bolton was trying to get games into the kids - but may have taken it too far, but this tactic was a definite easy sugar hit.

Now Teague not only appears fixated on playing older players at the detriment of younger kids - and has outright confirmed that he "wont make a statement at selection" as he put it - but he also appears almost obstinate and punitive in his selection process.

There is the direct opposite of development and opportunity.

If young players start to leave at seasons end or request trades for opportunities at other clubs then for my money there is no other way to see it than Teague costing us future talent through his lack of flexibility and foresight.

He has beaten Freo, Gold Coast, Eessendon, Sydney and North since we last played doggies - something like 18 games.

And just DROPPED Dow, SPS, Setterfield etc.

Its bordering on shambolic and the spot light is firmly on him. He has made a clear and definitive statement about his approach, he should be held accountable to it.
 

El Topo

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I agree with this and his comments on this issue have been incredibly disheartening. His main coaching tactic post taking over from Bolton was to play the older players which saw him get immediate success. Bolton was trying to get games into the kids - but may have taken it too far, but this tactic was a definite easy sugar hit.

Now Teague not only appears fixated on playing older players at the detriment of younger kids - and has outright confirmed that he "wont make a statement at selection" as he put it - but he also appears almost obstinate and punitive in his selection process.

There is the direct opposite of development and opportunity.

If young players start to leave at seasons end or request trades for opportunities at other clubs then for my money there is no other way to see it than Teague costing us future talent through his lack of flexibility and foresight.

He has beaten Freo, Gold Coast, Eessendon, Sydney and North since we last played doggies - something like 18 games.

And just DROPPED Dow, SPS, Setterfield etc.

Its bordering on shambolic and the spot light is firmly on him. He has made a clear and definitive statement about his approach, he should be held accountable to it.

Let's wait and see how the club rewards consistent reserves form now that we have our own side.

If Newnes/Gibbons et al turn out to have been scaffolds while we reprogram the young guys, Teague will be lauded as a mastermind. On the other hand, if those 'scaffolds' are still playing five weeks from now... :eyes:
 

BlueTongue

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As much as I bloody hate the tigers I have to admit that Richo always seems to give us a fair go too - as opposed to someone like that flogger Darcy: who seems to badmouth us a fair bit.
Yes glad it’s not just me who notices Darcy’s constant criticism. Loved him as a player buy he has become the biggest figjam in the commentary area. As for Richo, he has more reason to pot us than Darcy, considering our dominance over the tigers while he was playing, but he is all class.
 

BlueTongue

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I agree with this and his comments on this issue have been incredibly disheartening. His main coaching tactic post taking over from Bolton was to play the older players which saw him get immediate success. Bolton was trying to get games into the kids - but may have taken it too far, but this tactic was a definite easy sugar hit.

Now Teague not only appears fixated on playing older players at the detriment of younger kids - and has outright confirmed that he "wont make a statement at selection" as he put it - but he also appears almost obstinate and punitive in his selection process.

There is the direct opposite of development and opportunity.

If young players start to leave at seasons end or request trades for opportunities at other clubs then for my money there is no other way to see it than Teague costing us future talent through his lack of flexibility and foresight.

He has beaten Freo, Gold Coast, Eessendon, Sydney and North since we last played doggies - something like 18 games.

And just DROPPED Dow, SPS, Setterfield etc.

Its bordering on shambolic and the spot light is firmly on him. He has made a clear and definitive statement about his approach, he should be held accountable to it.
Setterfields form has been Shambolic. Even in today’s VFL game he seems to be plodding along, just mistakingly believing the play is all going to unfold for him, then when it doesn’t he missies easy targets. Don’t know what is going on with him but his form really has dropped off to the point where he is struggling at VFL level.
 

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