Developing Young Guys

[evs05]

I don't understand why everyone is so assured that "developing the young guys" is the equivalent of playing them in the seniors. I certainly don't blame Knights for giving Pears, Daniher, Atkinson and Myers a run this season. I think it's valuable for them to play a few games and get a taste. I also think debuting 3 of them against Port was a smart move in that it probably took the pressure off the individual a bit.

Having said that, I don't subscribe to the theory that guys like Pears should be playing every week. The kid has only just had his 18th birthday. From what I saw of him when he was in the seniors he wasn't quite up to the AFL standard yet. He (like 99% of kids his age) need time to land on his feet, learn his craft better, etc, etc. This can be done at Bendigo where they can gain knowledge and most importantly confidence. I just don't think "playing the kids" and throwing them all to the sharks is the answer.

Zac Dawson is the perfect example. Alistair Clarkson screamed to the high heavens he was doing the right thing playing him on the gun forwards as a youngster. Where is he now?

We all hope our young kids will be great and will be the backbone of our team over the next 5+ years. But let's not rush into it. There is still a place for a few of the dinosaurs while we develop the kids at Bendigo. Playing an entire team of under 25's isn't going to help anyone, least of all the kids themselves.

Just my opinion, let us know what you think because I feel like I am in the minority here.

 

[Daytripper]

I don't understand why everyone is so assured that "developing the young guys" is the equivalent of playing them in the seniors. I certainly don't blame Knights for giving Pears, Daniher, Atkinson and Myers a run this season. I think it's valuable for them to play a few games and get a taste. I also think debuting 3 of them against Port was a smart move in that it probably took the pressure off the individual a bit.

Having said that, I don't subscribe to the theory that guys like Pears should be playing every week. The kid has only just had his 18th birthday. From what I saw of him when he was in the seniors he wasn't quite up to the AFL standard yet. He (like 99% of kids his age) need time to land on his feet, learn his craft better, etc, etc. This can be done at Bendigo where they can gain knowledge and most importantly confidence. I just don't think "playing the kids" and throwing them all to the sharks is the answer.

Zac Dawson is the perfect example. Alistair Clarkson screamed to the high heavens he was doing the right thing playing him on the gun forwards as a youngster. Where is he now?

We all hope our young kids will be great and will be the backbone of our team over the next 5+ years. But let's not rush into it. There is still a place for a few of the dinosaurs while we develop the kids at Bendigo. Playing an entire team of under 25's isn't going to help anyone, least of all the kids themselves.

Just my opinion, let us know what you think because I feel like I am in the minority here.

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Bit of Box A, Bit of Box B.

In other words, you don't want to NOT play them, but you have to be careful they are ready. Atkinson, perfect example of someone who was not ready and was really poor as a result.

 

[SirJimi05]

I don't understand why everyone is so assured that "developing the young guys" is the equivalent of playing them in the seniors. I certainly don't blame Knights for giving Pears, Daniher, Atkinson and Myers a run this season. I think it's valuable for them to play a few games and get a taste. I also think debuting 3 of them against Port was a smart move in that it probably took the pressure off the individual a bit.

Having said that, I don't subscribe to the theory that guys like Pears should be playing every week. The kid has only just had his 18th birthday. From what I saw of him when he was in the seniors he wasn't quite up to the AFL standard yet. He (like 99% of kids his age) need time to land on his feet, learn his craft better, etc, etc. This can be done at Bendigo where they can gain knowledge and most importantly confidence. I just don't think "playing the kids" and throwing them all to the sharks is the answer.

Zac Dawson is the perfect example. Alistair Clarkson screamed to the high heavens he was doing the right thing playing him on the gun forwards as a youngster. Where is he now?

Best way to develop youngsters is to get senior games into them.
Zac Dawson is a totally different kettle of fish. It would have been fine if he played on the 4th or 5th best forwards but Clarko played him on the gun forward week in week out. This is obviously not the way of going about things. You can play the kids in the seniors whilst still protecting them.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Best way to develop is to mix them with the right senior players.

If they are good enough then they should play all games all year - Joel Selwood, Rhys Palmer, not many others.

For all other draftees you should try and give them a taste of about 5 games in their first year.

Get them in for another pre season and a bit more size and give them 10+ games if warranted in the second year.

Year 3 should see them pushing for a regular spot.

 

[B-Bomber]

Best way to develop is to mix them with the right senior players.

If they are good enough then they should play all games all year - Joel Selwood, Rhys Palmer, not many others.

For all other draftees you should try and give them a taste of about 5 games in their first year.

Get them in for another pre season and a bit more size and give them 10+ games if warranted in the second year.

Year 3 should see them pushing for a regular spot.

Sounds about right to me -- People often forget the other factor in developing players that is just as important as senior games played. Time.

If you play someone who isn't ready physically to run out a game at AFL level, isn't ready mentally to go hard at it all day at AFL level etc then just because their "Games played" stat is going up doesn't necessarily mean they are automatically going to get better when they hit game 50. For example Bryce Gibbs v Bachar Houli. If you look at their stats they are identical.

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare.asp?SeasonID=&SelectedPlayers=1716,1740,&Compare=Go

Identical in everything but games played. As much as we want to play the kids, get them all quickly up to higher games played numbers it's only going to really benefit them if their form and physical ability (Aerobic capacity etc) is ready for it. This takes time -- time that is measured in years (or more specifically pre-seasons).

 

[Knight Ryders]

We should look at what Port have been doing over the last three years. The really top kids, get as many games into them as possible (Myers, Hislop, Houli, Ryder, Reimers). The kids that need a little more maturing, give them the 3-7 games required this year to give them a taste and direction for what they should be doing in the following pre-season (Pears, Jetta, Lonergan, Atkinson). It also gives the coaching panel a chance to see if a player has actually got what it takes to play AFL football.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Both will play as much as each other. The "safer" option would be Myers as he is basically guaranteed a spot barring injury. Hislop POTENTIALL is better for Supercoach as he probably will get more disposals, however with Houli coming back who knows. However I do think Dyson and Monfries will go before Hislop does. Both players are reasonably safe.

 

[ant555]

It all depends on the player involved. I am not a big fan of playing first year players for 20 games but if they are good enough and managed properly ( Joel Sellwood for example) it can be done. On the other haand i think Monfries suffered from playing too much senior footy in a position that we did not wan't to develop him in for the future. He would have been better off playing more VFL footy in the midfield.
With the increased work load as far as training goes most 18 year olds should really be only playing around 5 to 10 games in their first season. They should also be rested some weekends from all football.

 

[ant555]

Both will play as much as each other. The "safer" option would be Myers as he is basically guaranteed a spot barring injury. Hislop POTENTIALL is better for Supercoach as he probably will get more disposals, however with Houli coming back who knows. However I do think Dyson and Monfries will go before Hislop does. Both players are reasonably safe.

I don't actually think Houli and Hislop compete for the same midfield position anyway. One day people will start to realise that Houli is an outside player. He may be strongly built but he has never been an inside in and under player.

 

[retroparty]

Schmick will disagree with you.

 

[Schmick]

I disagree with you

 

[evs05]

Best way to develop is to mix them with the right senior players.

If they are good enough then they should play all games all year - Joel Selwood, Rhys Palmer, not many others.

For all other draftees you should try and give them a taste of about 5 games in their first year.

Get them in for another pre season and a bit more size and give them 10+ games if warranted in the second year.

Year 3 should see them pushing for a regular spot.

i totally agree with this. obviously if they are good enough you don't drop them back. i guess the danger i see is that you can completely destroy a guys confidence if he is playing in the seniors every week and not contributing. especially if the team is on the end of some 10 goal beltings. give them a taste, but they don't need to be playing week in week out.

Best way to develop youngsters is to get senior games into them.

says who? what does a young guy take out of a game of football where he has 7 possessions and 3 of them are ineffective? (not referring to anyone, just made that up). like i said, confidence plays a big part at that young age. throwing them into the deep end might help some players thrive but for the most part i reckon it can do more harm than good.

 

[Schmick]

I think that it does help young guys develop by playing seniors.

I think that when young guys are playing VFL football and they clearly look a class above that level (such as Myers) then they need to be played at the next level up in order to get better and fast track their development.

But with other players such as Pears for example, I think its good to give them a go without putting too much pressure on them such as Dawson (playing on the #1 defender), and should instead be played as a 3rd/4th and should have a great support group around him of experienced senior defenders who can show them the ropes and quide them along the way like what was done with Paddy, otherwise it's makes their development harder without that experienced senior player around them guiding them.

They also have to be ready physically, they obviously can't be played as an inside midfielder in the seniors when theyr'e weighing around 75kg with a light frame, they need to have the body behind them to back up their talent and do well, otherwise it's jsut pointless development really because it can sometime damage their confidence when theyr'e getting bashed around like a rag doll in the centre square.

And obviously as Ant mentioned, it's no point playing seniors to fast track the players development if he's just going to be played out of position for a long period of time because the player can suffer long term from not have played in his original position for such a long time.

As long as it's done right, playing young players in the seniors is a good way to develop them.

 

[evs05]

I think that it does help young guys develop by playing seniors.

I think that when young guys are playing VFL football and they clearly look a class above that level (such as Myers) then they need to be played at the next level up in order to get better and fast track their development.

But with other players such as Pears for example, I think its good to give them a go without putting too much pressure on them such as Dawson (playing on the #1 defender), and should instead be played as a 3rd/4th and should have a great support group around him of experienced senior defenders who can show them the ropes and quide them along the way like what was done with Paddy, otherwise it's makes their development harder without that experienced senior player around them guiding them.

They also have to be ready physically, they obviously can't be played as an inside midfielder in the seniors when theyr'e weighing around 75kg with a light frame, they need to have the body behind them to back up their talent and do well, otherwise it's jsut pointless development really because it can sometime damage their confidence when theyr'e getting bashed around like a rag doll in the centre square.

And obviously as Ant mentioned, it's no point playing seniors to fast track the players development if he's just going to be played out of position for a long period of time because the player can suffer long term from not have played in his original position for such a long time.

As long as it's done right, playing young players in the seniors is a good way to develop them.

so you think they should be played in the seniors, but only if they are ready for it?

i think i have been slightly misinterpreted and that we are actually in agreement. to be honest with you the thread originated with pears. every time there is a "your team against" thread i see two out of three people putting pears in their team. why?! he is clearly not ready for it. that is the point i was trying to get across. i am not saying their should be a blanket rule that 18 year olds don't play in the seniors. but if a guy isn't ready then don't try and force the issue because it won't do anyone any good.

 

[Schmick]

so you think they should be played in the seniors, but only if they are ready for it?

i think i have been slightly misinterpreted and that we are actually in agreement. to be honest with you the thread originated with pears. every time there is a "your team against" thread i see two out of three people putting pears in their team. why?! he is clearly not ready for it. that is the point i was trying to get across. i am not saying their should be a blanket rule that 18 year olds don't play in the seniors. but if a guy isn't ready then don't try and force the issue because it won't do anyone any good.

I think he's ready, he looked comfortable at AFL level last time IMO, and is physically big enough to play on a 3rd/4th tall.
He's a big 18yo, already with a big build weighing 92kg already which is more than Ryder.
That, and he's been in the best for Bendigo in the past few weeks.

Can't see how he is not ready

 

[mick4]

I think he's ready, he looked comfortable at AFL level last time IMO, and is physically big enough to play on a 3rd/4th tall.
He's a big 18yo, already with a big build weighing 92kg already which is more than Ryder.
That, and he's been in the best for Bendigo in the past few weeks.

Can't see how he is not ready

Maybe after giving him a taste they are making him earn his spot. He shown just as much as Daniher has in his 2 games at senior level. He could just be rotated in and out off the side for the rest of the year.

Using Zac Dawson for an example is not really relevant to any players at Essendon. He played his under-age football as a undersized ruckman, who weighed the best part off 80kg in a side that was injury ravaged. It was either him or the lighter Josh Thurgood to play KPB. Even Ryder played the best part of 20 games before even going near the best tall forward. That and he has some sort off football ability

 

[Schmick]

Maybe after giving him a taste they are making him earn his spot. He shown just as much as Daniher has in his 2 games at senior level. He could just be rotated in and out off the side for the rest of the year.

Using Zac Dawson for an example is not really relevant to any players at Essendon. He played his under-age football as a undersized ruckman, who weighed the best part off 80kg in a side that was injury ravaged. It was either him or the lighter Josh Thurgood to play KPB. Even Ryder played the best part of 20 games before even going near the best tall forward. That and he has some sort off football ability

Pears has done much more than Daniher in the seniors. As I mentioned, if Pears was brought in, he'd be developed the proper way and not just thrown in the deep end like Dawson was, playing on the #1 forwards, and will be played as a 3rd/4th tall with Fletch and Mal guiding him down back like Ryder was.

 

[mick4]

Pears has done much more than Daniher in the seniors. As I mentioned, if Pears was brought in, he'd be developed the proper way and not just thrown in the deep end like Dawson was, playing on the #1 forwards, and will be played as a 3rd/4th tall with Fletch and Mal guiding him down back like Ryder was.

I totally agree with what you are saying. Daniher has shown promise when played across half forward or the wing but has looked lost when being played in defence. Pears would be much better suited to playing there

 

[Knight Ryders]

Not sure that anyone agrees with me, but our problems started with Sheedy having to try and "earn" his job the last two years. We needed more kids playing last year and probably a bigger turnover of players not up to the standard who we are seeing rolled out this year.

 

[monty1104]

Playing youngsters is all well and good, but they need to be playing for a specific reason, not just for the sake of playing. For example, we want to develop Hislop as an in and under player. If we play him in the centre square with Stanton and Winderlich for example, what will he learn?

IMO, with young midfielders, we need to pair them up in the centre square with more experienced players with a similar playing style. EG, Hislop and Watson in the centre together, Houli and Winderlich together.

With defenders and forwards, its a bit easier since we have experienced guys down there anyway. For the record, I think Pears, Hislop, Reimers and Myers should play every game for the rest of the year. IMO, they are developed enough to sustain the rigours of the reaminder of the season. They will gain the most from playing every game. Jetta, Daniher, Neagle, Gumbleton and Lonergan will need to be rested intermittently. We need to decide NOW those who are not part of our future and invest less time in them, spending more time on the youngsters.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Best way to develop youngsters is to get senior games into them.
Zac Dawson is a totally different kettle of fish. It would have been fine if he played on the 4th or 5th best forwards but Clarko played him on the gun forward week in week out. This is obviously not the way of going about things. You can play the kids in the seniors whilst still protecting them.

Yet you subscribe to getting rid of Mal and playing Pears and Daniher as his replacement. WT????

 

[dapto]

A lot of these guys need to spend the majority of the time in the seconds with a taste of seniors. But it is case by case. Daniher in particular, should be nursed along at Bendigo, where houli is obviously more ready to bridge the gap. Pears and myers little by little. But physically as well as mentally they are not seasoned to do too much.

It is not so much the game time but the match-up and the teams abilitily to rotate that position. Managing their confidence is as important as the experiences they pick up in both levels this year. Also building that sense of team and unity. The seniors do have a role in this.