Do you pray?

[Milkman]

Originally posted by Frodo
WHY? It's not obvious to me

Sir David Attenborough put it well on 'Enough Rope' a couple of weeks back, here's some of the transcript:


Andrew Denton: When you see this sort of stuff, do you ever get a sense of God's pattern?

Sir David Attenborough: Well, if you ask…about that, then you see remarkable things like that earwig and you also see all very beautiful things like hummingbirds, orchids, and so on. But you also ought to think of the other, less attractive things. You ought to think of tapeworms. You ought to think of…well, think of a parasitic worm that lives only in the eyeballs of human beings, boring its way through them, in West Africa, for example, where it's common, turning people blind. So if you say, "I believe that God designed and created and brought into existence every single species that exists," then you've also got to say, "Well, he, at some stage, decided to bring into existence a worm that's going to turn people blind." Now, I find that very difficult to reconcile with notions about a merciful God. And I certainly find it difficult to believe that a God_— superhuman, supreme power_— would actually do that.

http://www.abc.net.au/enoughrope/stories/s951650.htm

 

[CharlieG]

Otaku, WHY do you react so bitterly to people who have different beliefs? You are very intolerant of people who don't believe the same things you do. Why can't you just accept that not everyone believes in the same things you do, and let it go?

 

[demon_69]

Originally posted by CharlieG
Otaku, WHY do you react so bitterly to people who have different beliefs? You are very intolerant of people who don't believe the same things you do. Why can't you just accept that not everyone believes in the same things you do, and let it go?

(The first wink, where it all began).

 

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by CharlieG
Otaku, WHY do you react so bitterly to people who have different beliefs? You are very intolerant of people who don't believe the same things you do. Why can't you just accept that not everyone believes in the same things you do, and let it go?

It's not really about acceptance. Some people believe things that are absolutely ridiculous to other people, and those other people have the right to challenge those beliefs. Some people believe in things so far fetched that they deserved to be laughed at.

 

[CharlieG]

Originally posted by bunsen burner
It's not really about acceptance. Some people believe things that are absolutely ridiculous to other people, and those other people have the right to challenge those beliefs. Some people believe in things so far fetched that they deserved to be laughed at.

That's simply not true. Freedom of worship is a very important part of our society. It doesn't matter whether someone believes that God is a piece of mouldy cheese, if that is their belief, noone has the right to ridicule them - or challenge them. Say what you like to yourself or your mates, but leave them to worship in peace.

It's all about acceptance. People blame the world's problems on religion - religion isn't the problem. It's intolerance of other religions that is the problem.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by CharlieG
Otaku, WHY do you react so bitterly to people who have different beliefs? You are very intolerant of people who don't believe the same things you do. Why can't you just accept that not everyone believes in the same things you do, and let it go?

a) i am not reacting bitterly - show me one situation that i have been bitter".

b) it is my belief that these people are wrong, and stupid.

c) this is a DISCUSSION forum. We are here to make statements, and refute others statements if we feel they are false. This is the point of a DISCUSSION forum.

That's simply not true. Freedom of worship is a very important part of our society. It doesn't matter whether someone believes that God is a piece of mouldy cheese, if that is their belief, noone has the right to ridicule them - or challenge them. Say what you like to yourself or your mates, but leave them to worship in peace.

It's all about acceptance. People blame the world's problems on religion - religion isn't the problem. It's intolerance of other religions that is the problem.

It is well within my rights to challenge AND ridicule them. They feel they can spout crap to me, i can ridicule them for said beliefs. WHY do you feel the need to say they shouldnt be challenged? They put their beliefs up for examination in a public forum, they deserve everything they get.

Organised religion is the very definition of intolerance. for example "thou shalt have no other god except me" - intolerance is built in to organised religion.

 

[CharlieG]

Originally posted by otaku
a) i am not reacting bitterly - show me one situation that i have been bitter".

b) it is my belief that these people are wrong, and stupid.

c) this is a DISCUSSION forum. We are here to make statements, and refute others statements if we feel they are false. This is the point of a DISCUSSION forum.

a) You're obsession with this thread is enough for me to establish that you're bitter about it. Did you have a bad experience with formal religion or something? Because there's something eating away that is the reason for your 28 posts in this thread which have the sole intention of denigrating religion.

b) That's fine. Believe it, but what does it matter? Whichever side has it wrong will certainly discover their mistake eventually, don't you think? I hope for the sake of those who believe in heaven that they are right... atheists don't have anything to lose in the first place, do they?

c) This is a discussion forum, but you've now made 28 posts pushing your agenda... how many does it take to "discuss" before it becomes just another type of preaching?

It is well within my rights to challenge AND ridicule them. They feel they can spout crap to me, i can ridicule them for said beliefs. WHY do you feel the need to say they shouldnt be challenged? They put their beliefs up for examination in a public forum, they deserve everything they get.

Organised religion is the very definition of intolerance. for example "thou shalt have no other god except me" - intolerance is built in to organised religion.

Mate - I think you need to look closer into current racial and religious vilification laws. It is quite simply NOT your right to ridicule people on the basis of religion, no matter how big it makes you feel when you're with your atheist buddies down at the pub. Rather, it is their right to be left alone to worship in the way they feel is right. So leave them in peace. They don't deserve anything they get at all. They deserve respect for their beliefs, nothing more, nothing less.

And let me get this straight... because some religions believe in a single God, they are intolerant? Christians, for example, can dispute the existence of the Hindu Gods, without being intolerant. It's simply being consistent with their faith. It's when people start to ridicule, abuse or, in extreme cases such as Islamic fundamentalism, kill other people on the basis of religion, that religion becomes the basis for intolerance. Atheist fundamentalism is just as virulent as Islamic fundamentalism or Christian fundamentalism.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by CharlieG
a) You're obsession with this thread is enough for me to establish that you're bitter about it. Did you have a bad experience with formal religion or something? Because there's something eating away that is the reason for your 28 posts in this thread which have the sole intention of denigrating religion.

so, because i am the only one who is posting in here, it makes me bitter? try again. I am ridiculing people who believe absolutely in something without proof.

b) That's fine. Believe it, but what does it matter? Whichever side has it wrong will certainly discover their mistake eventually, don't you think? I hope for the sake of those who believe in heaven that they are right... atheists don't have anything to lose in the first place, do they?

c) This is a discussion forum, but you've now made 28 posts pushing your agenda... how many does it take to "discuss" before it becomes just another type of preaching?

first you say "accept it and move along" and "everyone should accept everyone else belief". Then you say "you have posted too much, you are bitter". Weak and contradicting arguments Charlie.

As long as people make comments, i will reply. How is this "pushing an agenda?

Mate - I think you need to look closer into current racial and religious vilification laws. It is quite simply NOT your right to ridicule people on the basis of religion, no matter how big it makes you feel when you're with your atheist buddies down at the pub. Rather, it is their right to be left alone to worship in the way they feel is right. So leave them in peace. They don't deserve anything they get at all. They deserve respect for their beliefs, nothing more, nothing less.

In a public forum, it is my right to counter a statement. If that includes ridicule, well, so be it. It is no more and no less than what "religious" people do to science.

Buggered if i am going to be PC on an internet forum just to please tossers.

The "makes you feel big" argument is old and worn out Charlie. It holds no sway in this topic, and the fact that you are resorting to it shows your lack of confidence in your supposed position.

And let me get this straight... because some religions believe in a single God, they are intolerant? Christians, for example, can dispute the existence of the Hindu Gods, without being intolerant. It's simply being consistent with their faith.

So, the denial of someone elses belief doesnt count as intolerance with you then? well, what point are you now arguing? First you accuse me of being intolerant, and now you qualify it with " it is consistant with their faith".

One way or the other , "Mate".

It's when people start to ridicule, abuse or, in extreme cases such as Islamic fundamentalism, kill other people on the basis of religion, that religion becomes the basis for intolerance. Atheist fundamentalism is just as virulent as Islamic fundamentalism or Christian fundamentalism.

Show me a case where an atheist has said " you belive in god, die you monotheistic scum".

Religion is a hotbed of intolerence. Simple fact.

I have never seen/heard of anyone being killed by an atheist for aborting a fetus, or not wearing the right clothes, or adultery, or a myriad of other "sins".

 

[skilts]

I'm with you, Otaku.

Our inherent tolerance of religion is simply not acknowledged, and it's certainly not justified. Generally, we've been far too nice.

This has given rise to an opinion abroad that those who pedal fantasies are 'good' people, whose ideas are deserving of notice. Religion, and particularly its practioners, are anathema to life, as we know it. Those who make a living by being a religious are barely human.

You, like me, have put up with these mothers pushing this garbage down our throats for our entire lives. When we take a stand, and say, "you're talking ****, and I CAN be bothered to not allow you to think you are getting away with this", we're the ones who are painted as being obsessed.

My only surprise is that those of a religious bent aren't brought to book more often. I admire your stance. I just wish I had the energy you have to pursue it.

 

[CharlieG]

Originally posted by otaku
so, because i am the only one who is posting in here, it makes me bitter? try again. I am ridiculing people who believe absolutely in something without proof.

You say this despite the fact that you believe absolutely in their not being a God - don't pretend that this has not been at the root of all your posts in this thread. So, am I right to ridicule you for believing absolutely in nothing without proof?

first you say "accept it and move along" and "everyone should accept everyone else belief". Then you say "you have posted too much, you are bitter". Weak and contradicting arguments Charlie.

As long as people make comments, i will reply. How is this "pushing an agenda?

Where is the contradiction in "accept it and move along" (YOUR quote, not mine, but you seem to have a habit of putting words in people's mouths) and "you have posted too mouch, you are bitter" (again your quote, not mine)? You have every right to believe what you do, and every right to post it here. But you have now made about 30 posts which have almost entirely been ridiculing people for their beliefs. What exactly makes your beliefs so much more worthy than everyone else's, that you consider yourself within your rights to ridicule everyone who doesn't subscribe to them? Your arrogance astounds me.

It is pushing an agenda, because most people without an agenda to push would have given up by now and said something to the effect of "oh well, fair enough, we disagree". But no, you seem to think you have a God-given right (pardon the pun) to abuse people.

In a public forum, it is my right to counter a statement. If that includes ridicule, well, so be it. It is no more and no less than what "religious" people do to science.

Buggered if i am going to be PC on an internet forum just to please tossers.

The "makes you feel big" argument is old and worn out Charlie. It holds no sway in this topic, and the fact that you are resorting to it shows your lack of confidence in your supposed position.

It is your right to counter a statement, but it is NOT your right to abuse people for simple belief. What gives you the right to decide, arbitrarily, who is right and who is wrong, and who deserves to be treated like an idiot because of it? You fall back on the mantra of "there is no proof", but there is also no proof of what you claim either. Your entire argument is hypocritical, and anyone with a modicum of intelligence would see that. As your posts appear to betray some intellect, I can only assume that you enjoy attacking people who don't meet your own standards.

So, the denial of someone elses belief doesnt count as intolerance with you then? well, what point are you now arguing? First you accuse me of being intolerant, and now you qualify it with " it is consistant with their faith".

One way or the other , "Mate".

Excuse me, but you're just trying to blur the lines of what I'm saying. There is a difference between a Christian saying to a Hindu "I don't believe that what you say is true, I place my faith in a single God", and a Christian saying to a Hindu "You've got to be kidding right? Three Gods? What sort of simpleton believes in three Gods? Idiot". The difference is respect. I'm respecting your belief in there not being a God. You're not respecting people who do believe in a God.

Show me a case where an atheist has said " you belive in god, die you monotheistic scum".

Religion is a hotbed of intolerence. Simple fact.

I have never seen/heard of anyone being killed by an atheist for aborting a fetus, or not wearing the right clothes, or adultery, or a myriad of other "sins".

Now you see, you're jumping to the conclusion that fundamentalism entails killing. Not true. Your version of fundamentalism is simply one where you stick to one dogma - there's no proof, therefore it cannot be - and are arrogant enough to decide that noone else deserves respect. That's still fundamentalism, regardless of whether you are flying planes into buildings to prove a point. It's still distorting facts to suit your own agenda.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by CharlieG
You say this despite the fact that you believe absolutely in their not being a God - don't pretend that this has not been at the root of all your posts in this thread. So, am I right to ridicule you for believing absolutely in nothing without proof?

you can say what you like, it wont bother me. But you are attributing motives to me that arnt actually there. I dont believe in nothing. I disbelieve in god. Big difference, and if you cant understand that, then there is no point in taking this any further.

to quote:

originally posted by Otaku
Based on what we know, there is no god. If we havent found any evidence related to him so far, and he doesnt actually do anything to our lives, why should we pray to him?

this is what i have been saying throughout this entire argument. I may have deviated off topic here and there, but that is the basic gist of things. If you wanna read that as "there is no god" thats your choice.

Where is the contradiction in "accept it and move along" (YOUR quote, not mine, but you seem to have a habit of putting words in people's mouths) and "you have posted too mouch, you are bitter" (again your quote, not mine)?

i was simply pointing out that in cases of faith, you say accept it and get on with it, and in cases of questioning said belief, you say enough is enough, say too much and i shall attack you personally. See the contradiction?

You have every right to believe what you do, and every right to post it here. But you have now made about 30 posts which have almost entirely been ridiculing people for their beliefs. What exactly makes your beliefs so much more worthy than everyone else's, that you consider yourself within your rights to ridicule everyone who doesn't subscribe to them? Your arrogance astounds me.

yet again, you seem to take exception to the fact that i have been the most prolific poster in this debate. Why is that?

i use ridicule, yes. As a way of pointing out to people the flaws in their arguments. Dont like it? dont read my posts. Simple.

It is pushing an agenda, because most people without an agenda to push would have given up by now and said something to the effect of "oh well, fair enough, we disagree". But no, you seem to think you have a God-given right (pardon the pun) to abuse people.

so, the fact that i have replied to inaccurate statements, means that i am pushing an agenda. I dont think so ...and if that is the best argument you have, i feel for you.

It is your right to counter a statement, but it is NOT your right to abuse people for simple belief. What gives you the right to decide, arbitrarily, who is right and who is wrong, and who deserves to be treated like an idiot because of it? You fall back on the mantra of "there is no proof", but there is also no proof of what you claim either. Your entire argument is hypocritical, and anyone with a modicum of intelligence would see that. As your posts appear to betray some intellect, I can only assume that you enjoy attacking people who don't meet your own standards.

i give myself the right to respond how i see fit. It is not up to tossers on the internet, or the PC brigade to dictate to me how to phrase my replies. As i have said before - dont like it? dont read it.

My whole argument has been there is no proof of god. The people who pray to him/her/it do so without any reason, apart from the fact that that was what they were brought up to do. I base my views on what we know, not what we imagine and create. As this changes, no doubt my views will change. You dont have to have your views set in stone (as so many religious people seem to do).

Excuse me, but you're just trying to blur the lines of what I'm saying. There is a difference between a Christian saying to a Hindu "I don't believe that what you say is true, I place my faith in a single God", and a Christian saying to a Hindu "You've got to be kidding right? Three Gods? What sort of simpleton believes in three Gods? Idiot". The difference is respect. I'm respecting your belief in there not being a God. You're not respecting people who do believe in a God.

no blurring at all. you state that someone can dispute the very fabric of a different religion and so long as "It's simply being consistent with their faith" it is ok?

that is intolerance in it most basic form. want a definition of intolerence, just so you can see i am right?

Now you see, you're jumping to the conclusion that fundamentalism entails killing. Not true. Your version of fundamentalism is simply one where you stick to one dogma - there's no proof, therefore it cannot be - and are arrogant enough to decide that noone else deserves respect. That's still fundamentalism, regardless of whether you are flying planes into buildings to prove a point. It's still distorting facts to suit your own agenda.

you were the one to bring fundamentalism and killing into the picture, not me. I have never seen an atheist (no matter how impassioned) kill someone for believing in a god. Yet we see this all the time when religion is involved. Simple observation, simple conclusion.

I am not distorting any facts at all. Were are you making that up from? You are making unbased attacks here. Please re-read the topic before you make any other rediculous accusation.

Simple point : No proof of god. at all. anywhere.

 

[Spidergirl~RiCkChiCk]

I think i believe there is a god up there now coz i prayed to him when i was in a ****ed up state and things were fixed!

 

[skilts]

Originally posted by Spidergirl~RiCkChiCk
I think i believe there is a god up there now coz i prayed to him when i was in a ****ed up state and things were fixed!

Now you're in a different, more profoundly ****ed up state.

You believe that your problems were solved by a non-existent being. Hope you enjoy the rest of your life, sublimating yourself to an idea which demeans your humanity.

Doesn't a realist always sound cruel?

"Great God Almighty. Yes, I see the light."

If only I'd had a relevation, I'd be a better, different person.

 

[skilts]

Originally posted by Generalissimo
I'll say it is given that, in the thousand years or so that there has been proper organized science, progress has been made in answering every question except for the old "Why is there something instead of nothing?". I simply don't think science can ever explain it.

Is it possible that the answer to the question, "Why is there something, rather than nothing?", is that there is both something and nothing.

The thing we're engaged in here (being), could reasonably be described as 'something', unless, of course you adopt the attitude that the facticity of our existence is yet to be established. If this is your position, don't read any further.

The thing towards which we are all becoming is 'nothing', in that we will all, ultimately, cease to exist?

That's as 'nothing' as any of us will ever be.

Don't know of any book, or idea which will help in this circumstance. Fact is, humans become irrelevant when they're dead, except for those who no longer have the pleasure of their company.

All of this is an argument which will be ignored by the major participants in this thread, because it is unsuited to the furtherance of their narrow goals.

 

[Spidergirl~RiCkChiCk]

Originally posted by skilts
Now you're in a different, more profoundly ****ed up state.

You believe that your problems were solved by a non-existent being. Hope you enjoy the rest of your life, sublimating yourself to an idea which demeans your humanity.

Doesn't a realist always sound cruel?

"Great God Almighty. Yes, I see the light."

If only I'd had a relevation, I'd be a better, different person.

hey it coulda been the light of the bong who knows