Doping Thread

[phantom13]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/more-s...ar-stuart-ogrady/story-fndukor0-1226684658992

Probably belongs here now as well.

 

[Belnakor]

Total over reaction really

 

[Zondor]

Now look. I love cycling. Like getting on my bike and cruising for 50 to 100km at a time.

I enjoy watching cycling. The one day classics, Le Tour etc.

But lets face facts. For ever and a day there has been one cyclist or another attempting to gain an illegal edge in Le Tour.

Therefore I propose we rename the Tour to Le Tour de Mickey Juice. :stern look

 

[Sterge]

All these guys wait until they retire and essentially face no consequences then come out with 'oh it was a big mistake and i'm coming out now because it was weighing down my conscience so much'

If they cared that much they would step down straight away not wait until retirement and play the sympathy card

 

[phantom13]

Total over reaction really

What do you mean?

 

[Papa Juggs]

It's all about the pay day.

O'Grady was a doper?

No shit mate. Doesn't take Sherlock to tell anybody that ever did well from about 95-05 was on the stuff. Before that it was just roid munching.

I'm sure they're all still on some amount just can't go overboard without getting busted.

 

[ben_1301]

It's hard to judge some of these guys, I honesty think if I was cycling during that period I'd probably go down that path to.

 

[Vader]

It's hard to be surprised, disappointed or overly critical of his decision to dope. The reality is that he needed to do it just to stay on the same playing field as those around him. They were all doing it back then - and I mean all of them. Saying O'Grady doped back in 1998 is like saying the sky is blue.

Sure it's disappointing when we have it confirmed that one of our favourite sons was a doper, but I think we all knew deep down that it was probably the case (and is probably the case for Cadel and all the others as well).

Cycling really needs a Truth & Reconciliation process. They need to rule a line through the past, establish who did what without an environment of fear and reprisals, accept that that was then and this is now. Only then, with the history properly acknowledged, can they move forward into a cleaner future.

 

[mcgarnacle]

It's hard to be surprised, disappointed or overly critical of his decision to dope. The reality is that he needed to do it just to stay on the same playing field as those around him. They were all doing it back then - and I mean all of them. Saying O'Grady doped back in 1998 is like saying the sky is blue.

Sure it's disappointing when we have it confirmed that one of our favourite sons was a doper, but I think we all knew deep down that it was probably the case (and is probably the case for Cadel and all the others as well).

Cycling really needs a Truth & Reconciliation process. They need to rule a line through the past, establish who did what without an environment of fear and reprisals, accept that that was then and this is now. Only then, with the history properly acknowledged, can they move forward into a cleaner future.

a once and for all needs to be done for sure. these little inquiries and examinations filtering out every 6 months for the next few years with regard to athletes and events more than a decade ago will continually solidify the 'dope sport' brand that all of cycling is tainted with and will always continue to be tainted with.

 

[Belnakor]

whenever the "shock" of someone doping comes out i always go back to this graphic.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...e-tour-de-france-tainted-by-doping.html?_r=1&

which doesn't even include people implicated in doping - only those who were caught/admitted.

 

[what did you say]

the amount of under 18 year old kids (euro) who are semi pro or have been an have been turned away from the sport for this same reason.. they get appoached about doping even to this day an are told you have to dope to go pro... i can't workout why they dope there really isn't that much money in the sport

 

[phantom13]

the amount of under 18 year old kids (euro) who are semi pro or have been an have been turned away from the sport for this same reason.. they get appoached about doping even to this day an are told you have to dope to go pro... i can't workout why they dope there really isn't that much money in the sport

Tell Lance Armstrong there is no money in cycling. At the top end there is plenty of money and hence the appeal to dope is there. Plus its a combination of money, fame and glory. If you were a talented cyclist at 19 years old and someone came to you and said if you take this you could earn millions, win grand tours and have your own gatorade flavour, but if you dont you will be forever destined to ride around the semi pro circuit working a 9-5 and no one will remember you, keeping in mind you have trained and dreamed of winning a tour since you were a little kid which option do you choose? It might not be that cut and dry for some but for Pro athletes this is there livelyhood as well as their dream.

 

[Papa Juggs]

They should just say EPO is allowed.

Would even out the field and give everybody a chance to hit their maximum output.

Sometimes I wonder how long sport in general can try to maintain its "everybody plays clean" fraud. It's obvious that if you want to play for big money people are going to do whatever it takes to get an edge.

Look at Bolt. Everybody that has come close to his times is a doper yet he is not? I mean how long do we have to pretend?

 

[phantom13]

They should just say EPO is allowed.

Would even out the field and give everybody a chance to hit their maximum output.

Sometimes I wonder how long sport in general can try to maintain its "everybody plays clean" fraud. It's obvious that if you want to play for big money people are going to do whatever it takes to get an edge.

Look at Bolt. Everybody that has come close to his times is a doper yet he is not? I mean how long do we have to pretend?

It's interesting as well that Bolt has refused to condemn any of his peers who have been done for doping. He always says something like "i dont need to worry about it" or "it doesn't affect me". At least if he does ever get pinged in years to come he wont look as stupid as O'Grady did for this.

http://mobile.news.com.au/sport/rob...-lance-armstrong/story-fngr0c3c-1226557025866

I am now onboard with your line of thinking Juggs. The only way to ensure a level playing field is to allow it. Time to stop burying heads in the sand. The sporting world is dirty and always will be, for every drug they develop a test for 100 more will crop up in it's place. WADA is fighting a losing battle. The only ramification now is a moral one, do you allow athletes to dope when the risk to their health may become too great? For me it's the athletes choice, and to be honest i think most of them will chose fleeting glory over a long mediocre career. Let them play

 

[alfy!]

Who do you guys think the secret pro is talking about in his latest article: http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/07/the-secret-pro-post-tour-de-france-edition/

Speaking of past performance-enhancing methods, there are a lot of guys in the peloton who aren’t the riders they used to be only a few years ago. I won’t name names, but there’s a few elephants in the peloton who I’m sure you’re aware of.

I do find it interesting how the media were putting all the tough questions on Froome, who was winning, and no tough questions were being asked about some of the other riders who aren’t smashing the field like they used to.

Of course we in the peloton suspect certain riders are doping. We see each other day in and day out, and when some unnamed French team who had some issues in the Dauphine takes the piss out of the rest of the peloton in previous years then is back to normal this Tour and riding with a little less panache, we have to ask the question.

We all 100% suspected Santambrogio and Mustafa Sayar (Tour of Turkey winner), but what are we going to do, call the UCI anti-doping hotline? Of course not. You might say that this means the omertà still exists, but where else do you see people dob each other in based on gut feel? How many of you have ever made a citizens arrest before, or even known someone who has?

Contador? Evans? Valverde? Europcar the French team?

 

[thegrach]

They should just say EPO is allowed.

Would even out the field and give everybody a chance to hit their maximum output.

Sometimes I wonder how long sport in general can try to maintain its "everybody plays clean" fraud. It's obvious that if you want to play for big money people are going to do whatever it takes to get an edge.

Look at Bolt. Everybody that has come close to his times is a doper yet he is not? I mean how long do we have to pretend?

I'm not sure about Bolt, only because he seems physically different to almost every other sprinter today. They usually seem small and quite muscular whereas he is obviously taller and doesn't seem to have as much muscle mass. Maybe the reason he is better than everyone else is that he takes bigger steps and covers a lot more ground per stride than the others.

Not saying he is not a doper, perhaps a bit less skeptical about him than others.

 

[Cole Dammett]

Who do you guys think the secret pro is talking about in his latest article: http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/07/the-secret-pro-post-tour-de-france-edition/



Contador? Evans? Valverde? Europcar the French team?

I thought of those guys as well as Andy Schleck

 

[Sterge]

I thought of those guys as well as Andy Schleck

Contador was done for cheating so is obviously on less gear now
Schleck was also most likely cheating I doubt anyone believes only his brother was cheating and he had a nasty accident still getting back into it
Evans was probably on something but even when he won he didn't really dominate the race plus he is getting on a bit so a natural slow down is to be expected

 

[Vader]

But Schleck was coming back from a broken pelvis, which he suffered 18 months ago. I'm fairly sure Paul & Phil mentioned it once or twice during the coverage.

Cuddles was just knackered after the Giro took more out of him than he expected (not surprising given the horrible weather they had to ride through). His record in the tour, prior to 2013, was a model of consistency.

Contador hasn't been the same since he got banned for Clenbuterol. He knows his next bust will be his last (lifetime ban), so he's cut waaaay back on the juice to make sure he doesn't get bounced.

Valverde has always been a hoax rider as far as I can recall. This was probably the best Tour he's ever ridden - other than that one flat stage where he lost a heap of time due to the echelons.

Voeckler's 2011 was a standout in an otherwise average Tour history. He's always been good in the mountains and a potential threat for the polka dot jersey, but he'd never ridden anything like what he did in that tour.

Rolland did pretty much as expected - challenged for King of the Mountains, without ever threatening to be a genuine GC contender.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Cycling is simply much better with EPO.

It's either see guys struggling or remove all those mountain stages.

At least this way it's a known factor and teams that have the best "sports science" which basically means "masking drugs" are going to be getting an edge.

If you take the masking drug advantage away you can close the gap to Sky.

 

[Papa Juggs]

I'm not sure about Bolt, only because he seems physically different to almost every other sprinter today. They usually seem small and quite muscular whereas he is obviously taller and doesn't seem to have as much muscle mass. Maybe the reason he is better than everyone else is that he takes bigger steps and covers a lot more ground per stride than the others.

Not saying he is not a doper, perhaps a bit less skeptical about him than others.

At one point I was willing to believe in freaks. Not anymore.

Natural talent + drugs = all time great.

Some nobody + drugs = competitive athlete.

Some nobody with no drugs = don't waste your life kid, get an education and get a real job.

 

[Belnakor]

Cycling is simply much better with EPO.

It's either see guys struggling or remove all those mountain stages.

At least this way it's a known factor and teams that have the best "sports science" which basically means "masking drugs" are going to be getting an edge.

If you take the masking drug advantage away you can close the gap to Sky.

If everyone was on full EPO would we see the kind of things in the most recent tour? Other than Froome and most of Sky it was a relatively clean tour and I think it showed when you got to the mountains and half the peloton disintegrated in the first 5km.

I think a better way would be no out of competition testing - but when you ride the tour you are clean. If you get nailed your banned for life.

 

[Belnakor]

The only ramification now is a moral one, do you allow athletes to dope when the risk to their health may become too great? For me it's the athletes choice, and to be honest i think most of them will chose fleeting glory over a long mediocre career. Let them play

the issues will come in when you have the essendon type scenario where guys are taking juice that isn't even approved for human usage. If you have a list of "ok" drugs like EPO then there will always be guys who go for a little bit extra.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Even the dopers crack. We saw it when Voeckler lost the yellow last year.

He was filthy that the drugs weren't going to carry him to a win.

You still need ability.

EPO is cheap, masking it costs a fortune.

 

[phantom13]

the issues will come in when you have the essendon type scenario where guys are taking juice that isn't even approved for human usage. If you have a list of "ok" drugs like EPO then there will always be guys who go for a little bit extra.

It's still the individuals call. No one is forcing anyone to take anything, but if you want to compete at the highest level thats the risk YOU as the athlete take. Maybe it leads to those willing to take the most risks winning, maybe it leads to more scenarios like Flo Jo, but the choice for the athlete becomes take this and maybe become the best, maybe die at 30, dont take it and good luck catching those who do. EPO has some serious side effects if abused, we saw that in a number of riders dying in their sleep http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/feb/16/cycling.cycling1
Essentially what im saying is if you "legalise" the use of EPO then everyone does it and people will look for something newer, better and potentially riskier. To even to field you have to make it a carte blanche. Let them insert extra synthetic testicles, pump themselves full of vampire bat blood, whatever. It's the only way to make it level. Not clean, but even.