Elite Players

[Arcassius]

The Herald Sun had an article stating that Champion Data analysis of lists had come up with a breakdown of players showing that Hawthorn had the most talent on their list. Interesting piece - here

The 2012 AFL Prospectus - the ultimate number-cruncher for football fanatics compiled by the game's top statistics agency - has laid bare the level and depth of talent at every club.

Using the Champion Data rankings system, each club's list has been broken into five classes - elite, above average, average, below average and poor - based on the past two years.

Champion Data compared players only with their positional peers. All forwards were placed in the same basket, but defenders were split into "key" (stopping) and "general" (playmaking) categories.

A "mid-forward" position was added to cater for that growing role.

Only those who played at least five games in the past two years were analysed, so as to provide greater accuracy.

But the main thing was that the 'top' teams have around 7 elite players according to Champion Data, Freo are considered to currently have 5


Fremantle: Luke McPharlin (key def), Matthew Pavlich (mid fwd), Aaron Sandilands (ruck), Greg Broughton (gen def), Michael Barlow (mid).



For interests sake - Hawthorn, Geelong, St Kilda (7), Collingwood, Carlton (6), Fremantle (5)


Thoughts?

 

[Seppo]

1. Why is Fyfe not Elite?
2. Do they need to create a new category below 'poor' for MJ?

 

[DizzyHB]

1. Why is Fyfe not Elite?
2. Do they need to create a new category below 'poor' for MJ?

^^
/end thread.

 

[Arcassius]

They mentioned that the stats were based on the past 2 years. I would imagine if Fyfe has another season like the last, he'll be up there as elite in the 2013 prospectus. I see him as being on of the players to cement themselves as an elite player in the competition - if we need to be sitting at around 7+ players, to be on par with the other powerhouses, who else do we have that can step up

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

Could quite easily add Ballas and possibly Mundy to that list, injury permitting.

Then we've got a fair few of our next echelon of players quite capable of being top 50-100 or so in the comp. Fyfe would slot in easily, so we'd have our 7 without much problem.

 

[ilikepotatoes]

ballantyne, training for a midfield role, could do it

 

[Freo Dr]

Well I would suggest Mundy, Ballantyne (with a better forward structure for him to crumb to), Morabito and Hill along with Fyfe would be the next tier of players for us capable of pushing to elite.

Zac Clarke a smokey maybe and Suban I think will really shine in 2013 but not elite.

 

[Arcassius]

Mora has the potential but is still a smokey without having a good solid season first. We've still only seen glimpses.

I'm suprised in a sense that Mundy missed out - but he wasn't on the park enough. He's probably the most immediate along with Fyfe. Silvagni is another who (with a good season) could cement a place as an elite defender.

 

[Stronzo]

MJ is an elite pointer.

 

[Nickos66]

Cred kinda flies out the window when Bachar Houli is listed as elite for Richmond.

I wouldn't have called Grant Birchall & Jarryd Roughead elite either, personally.

 

[Righteo]

Yeah maybe he hasn't produced it for long enough, but AKAIC Mundy is elite and will prove this in 2012 provided he remains injury free.

And Broughton

Think Fyfe should move up into that category next year, thus giving us 7 (as Mundy will undoubtedly be there too)

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

The Herald Sun had an article stating that Champion Data analysis of lists had come up with a breakdown of players showing that Hawthorn had the most talent on their list. Interesting piece - here

But the main thing was that the 'top' teams have around 7 elite players according to Champion Data, Freo are considered to currently have 5

Fremantle: Luke McPharlin (key def), Matthew Pavlich (mid fwd), Aaron Sandilands (ruck), Greg Broughton (gen def), Michael Barlow (mid).

For interests sake - Hawthorn, Geelong, St Kilda (7), Collingwood, Carlton (6), Fremantle (5)
Thoughts?

1. Why is Fyfe not Elite?
2. Do they need to create a new category below 'poor' for MJ?

Fyfe is so good he broke the stats calculator - he is super-elite, and so didn't get a mention in the mere elite...

And, FWIW, MJ is only one half of the pointer sisters, now that Hinkley has been dumped.

Could quite easily add Ballas and possibly Mundy to that list, injury permitting.

Then we've got a fair few of our next echelon of players quite capable of being top 50-100 or so in the comp. Fyfe would slot in easily, so we'd have our 7 without much problem.

Mundy's omission is staggering. He is easily in the best 15 mids over the last two years in all teams, both by stats and by "votes"/peer comments. How the frick the Hun writers didn't even find him worthy of a footnote as possibly being in the top 50 is beyond me. Good news for us though - Mundyh always seems to have his best seasons when he is underestimated...

MJ is an elite pointer.

It's an interesting view of the data. But the reality is that you just can't compare from stats like this and get a perfect picture.

If your in an innefective team, you don't get as many deliveries put cleanly onto your chest and have to pick up a spilled ball more often in contested space etc, you'll have less time to move the ball and find appropriate targets.

It's easier to get good stats in a good team, the list would be more meaningful if it could account for that - Supposing that Gary Abblet was a forward for Gold Coast, he mightn't have seen much of the ball and therefore not appeared as an elite on that list.

Well put, to a point. Great players will always eventually get the stats (eg GAJ at GC this year) but being in a great team certainly increases the productivity of upper-average players, and makes borderline players seem quality. Still no bloody way that Fyfe or Mundy should have missed out.

 

[Arcassius]

Fyfe missed out because the stats are looking at 2 years of data.
Mundy probably for the same reason.

The stats were compiled and analysed by Champion Data, not HUN writers (so a little less subjectivity in them, although the exact measures are never given).

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

Fyfe missed out because the stats are looking at 2 years of data.
Mundy probably for the same reason.

The stats were compiled and analysed by Champion Data, not HUN writers (so a little less subjectivity in them, although the exact measures are never given).

Hun writers selected the time period, grouped the stats areas for analysis, and set the guidelines around whether finals were included or not, whether injuries were allowed for or not,and what to do with "ties" [ie where multiple players had the same raw stats ranking].

Champion then processed the data, and reprocessed it as instructed by the Hun writers.

I accept that Fyfe would be on the margins of elite if the rankings were over two years, but he doesn't even get a mention in the write up as being in the top 50, which is clearly bulldust. He will easily be top 30 in both DT and Supercoach next year, which is as unbiased and complete a ranking system as there is.

Mundy has been to 30 midfield for the last 3 seasons, and he didn't miss a game until this year, so again it is unreasonable for them to not even mention him, especially given the mentions afforded a number of other (Victorian based) players in that article.

And yes, it is all down to the Hun writers, they are easily the most biased and most pathetic "footy journos" in Australia. Damien Barrett and company are prime examples of the crp that the scum at that rag turn out...

 

[DockerLand1]

Hun writers selected the time period, grouped the stats areas for analysis, and set the guidelines around whether finals were included or not, whether injuries were allowed for or not,and what to do with "ties" [ie where multiple players had the same raw stats ranking].

Champion then processed the data, and reprocessed it as instructed by the Hun writers.

I accept that Fyfe would be on the margins of elite if the rankings were over two years, but he doesn't even get a mention in the write up as being in the top 50, which is clearly bulldust. He will easily be top 30 in both DT and Supercoach next year, which is as unbiased and complete a ranking system as there is.

Mundy has been to 30 midfield for the last 3 seasons, and he didn't miss a game until this year, so again it is unreasonable for them to not even mention him, especially given the mentions afforded a number of other (Victorian based) players in that article.

And yes, it is all down to the Hun writers, they are easily the most biased and most pathetic "footy journos" in Australia. Damien Barrett and company are prime examples of the crp that the scum at that rag turn out...

As far as football information goes Champion Data provide the best source of information available. There will always be players overlooked or selected that surprise depending on the criteria. Personally, (getting ready to be shot down here) I think that there are players at Fremantle that are Fystatistically elite but not elite footballers. There are footballers at Fremantle that will get there in 2012 with better coaching and structure. According to the data that was coming in last year Fyfe did not have elite disposal, yet he went very close to AA selection. Houli has elite disposal and is fortunate to be playing AFL. The stats don't lie, but some players appear to concentrate on trying to look good in this area when their team is not going so well because it is one way to measure a players talent. Don't worry about our players being in or out, let's get them all on the park for a change and work on skill just like our new coach is doing and watch the overall team ranking improve greatly.
Do worry if you are starting out a brand new team with every concession given to you by the AFL and you have not picked up one elite footballer. GWS be ready for some serious thrashings in 2012!

 

[basashi]

Do worry if you are starting out a brand new team with every concession given to you by the AFL and you have not picked up one elite footballer. GWS be ready for some serious thrashings in 2012!

It does seem a concern that GWS look significantly weaker than GC did this time last year. In a market where it is going to be hard to win fans over it would be nice to have a squad capable of 3-6 wins in their first year. They seem to have a squad capable of zero in the first year.

 

[missionpossible]

I would have said Freo have 3 elite players. Sandilands, Mundy, Pavlich - to clarify I think there is only 20-30 elite players in the comp (and yep port have none of them)

Barlow, Fyfe could argue to be in that group but to me to be the elite you have to sustain performance over a number of year and these two haven't been in the system long enough. Fyfe also needs to improve his hurt factor by foot.

McFarlane is very good but doesn't dominate games often enough to be elite.

 

[DockerLand1]

I would have said Freo have 3 elite players. Sandilands, Mundy, Pavlich - to clarify I think there is only 20-30 elite players in the comp (and yep port have none of them)

Barlow, Fyfe could argue to be in that group but to me to be the elite you have to sustain performance over a number of year and these two haven't been in the system long enough. Fyfe also needs to improve his hurt factor by foot.

McFarlane is very good but doesn't dominate games often enough to be elite.

I do agree with most points Mission, but I would argue that McPharlin is elite and should have got AA last year. The key to your team improving though is eliminating players that are in the Poor and Below Average section in each role in your best 22. There will always be those players that are in multiple roles/utilities that are essential to every team but this should be the clubs aim.

I want to know how many of these players that we have at our club and who are in our best 22. As I didnt order my Prospectus before Christmas, I am going to have to wait until New Year to find out.

In regard to Port, no Elite players is a concern. No sponsor is worse, just keep going and supporting your team. I saw the death of Fitzroy first hand and it was an awful think to see. It should never happen again. It is amazing that only 7 years ago that you guys were top of the world. The worm can certainly turn. You have to be tough in the meantime though. Freo have never had the highs that Port have had but our supporters are 'Hard Core!'

 

[Scham]

Stats don't go anywhere near telling the whole story but that does highlight how much the injuries affected our season last year. (I point that out more for the uneducated opposition supporters (particularly WCE) that still deny that we had more than the average rate of injuries last year)

 

[theGav56]

Interesting off-season way to take a look at the lists and get a handle on where we sit in relation to them.

Given the absence of Fyfe, Mundy and Ballantyne (who must be considered pretty close to that category), as well as the massive potential of Hill, Morabitto, Silvagni and Clarke, it says to me that we are ripe and ready for a good crack at finals.

This time next year we could be sitting on that list with 8 players, in a variety of areas of the ground, but concentrated midfield.

• Player development.
  
• Improved work at stoppages.
  
• Improved game plan. especially a revamped forward line.
  
• Better fitness management + some injury luck.

 

[greatgatsby]

Interesting off-season way to take a look at the lists and get a handle on where we sit in relation to them.

Given the absence of Fyfe, Mundy and Ballantyne (who must be considered pretty close to that category), as well as the massive potential of Hill, Morabitto, Silvagni and Clarke, it says to me that we are ripe and ready for a good crack at finals.


This time next year we could be sitting on that list with 8 players, in a variety of areas of the ground, but concentrated midfield.

• Player development.
  
• Improved work at stoppages.
  
• Improved game plan. especially a revamped forward line.
  
• Better fitness management + some injury luck.

I agree. Whatever you think of these categorisations, this shows the potential of our list. After what will hopefully be a decent season, I would expect our list to have closed the gap on the top few by this time next year.

 

[yakka man]

Champion Data or not, if Jarrad Waite, Bachar Houlia and Adam Schneider are classified as elite then the competition is very weak. Fyfe will be added to our list at the end of next year.

 

[yakamoto]

A bit of a joke really. Mundy is easily our best player and doesn't make the cut. Barlow gets there on the back of half a season.
Just shows how much stats do lie. What account is taken of quality of possessions and disposals I wonder? Which is more valuable to the team - six chips around the back half or hitting up a team mate once inside 50?

 

[Arcassius]

I agree. Whatever you think of these categorisations, this shows the potential of our list. After what will hopefully be a decent season, I would expect our list to have closed the gap on the top few by this time next year.

This.

A) Shows we're up there with players considered top 10% in their position
B) Lots to look forward to given some of the omissions


Regarding the competition being weak - it's all relative really. We only need to be better than the rest.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

1. Why is Fyfe not Elite?
2. Do they need to create a new category below 'poor' for MJ?

how heavily is skill efficiency weighted in on this? im not sure fyfe's skills are elite. his marking, endurance and ball winning are, but his general field kicking etc is good without being anything special. if he has another season like 2011 next year im sure he will fit in to the elite bracket, or close too.

the english language has not yet developed a word to describe how bad johnson is