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Enough is enough

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MEB_ said:
Did you forget the fact that I flew all the way to ******* NEW ZEALAND to watch the football?
I rarely miss a game, I'm just sick of sanctimonious people who puff their chests out and look down their nose at other people "Ohhhh...You didn't go to the game last week? You're not a TRUE SUPPORTER like I!"

Get over yourself.
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If you don't like posters that look down their nose at people do yourself a favour and don't read your own posts. 50% of your posts are moral judgements


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Kruzering said:
Classic fair-weather reasoning
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Nah, seriously stating an opinion that you think not going to the football makes you a fair weather supporter in a sweeping fashion ... well it's an opinion. You may get bites but it is your opinion.

To continue to single out individuals who have some points in the bank as far as not being fair weather supporters, well ... you're probably just spoiling for a fight there.

Let's move on.
 
Kruzering said:
If you don't like posters that look down their nose at people do yourself a favour and don't read your own posts. 50% of your posts are moral judgements


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Oh god. There's a massive difference between not wanting people to be discriminated against on the basis of their gender or make jokes about domestic violence (which is generally what I get annoyed about) and accusing other people of being fair weather supporters because they don't fit with your idea of what a supporter should be.

I bought 4 memberships this year, I give up my own time nearly every week to record a football podcast, I went to NZ for the ANZAC game, and I've missed one home game because I was sick and you think that makes me fair weather. I suppose I shouldn't really care what you think, but it really gets on my nerves when people obviously have such a superiority complex.

I didn't even say that I was skipping the game this week, it is just hard to justify going to watch our senior players run around like they would rather be anywhere else when I know that our VFL side is busting their ass week in, week out, to win a spot in that team.
 

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Move on. A one week thread ban should calm this down. Personal pursuit of posters is derailing and a recipe for escalation.
 
I dont see why anyone really cares what others think of their support.

I can't make it to more than 6-8 games per year, but ill go out of my way to watch the others on TV or a replay later. Whilst im emotionally invested in the team, its not the be all and end all of my life.
 
windows said:
So my question is: what are we as individuals, and perhaps then collectively, going to do?

I'd like this thread to be a serious thread that canvasses options then we move to some sort of consensus about action. Ambitious I know.
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Thread has been derailed a bit so I have quoted the OP question.

Before we, bigfooty posters and Carlton members/supporters, can take collective action we must agree to an outcome we are striving for, one more tangible than simply "winning the flag".

Carlton's plans for the future
IMO MLG was correct to say when he did that we are now in a rebuild. Under the malign coaching of MM we have become completely hopeless. Anyone who thinks the rebuild comment was out of line because it undermined MM is correct as to the 2nd part but wrong as to it being out of line.

Find a coach
It is clear that we need a new coach, one who can structure the list rebuild to suit the coaches game plan. To this end the Board must now openly canvas applications for the job for 2016 to get the widest number of applicants for the job. A coaching selection committee should include McKay, SOS, MLG and an external football advisor, someone with current experience in coaching (not necessarily as coach) and the running of a successful football club.

The new coach should have a major, but not decisive, in-put into the assistant coaching roles.

The new coach would be offered a one year probationary contract. We only want a coach that wants to coach at Carlton AND has the self-confidence to believe that if given the chance the coach will prove themselves.

List rebuild
After 3 years of MM I think our list is in a terrible state. The only untouchables are Cripps, Menzel, Docherty, Yarran and Bell. Perhaps even the last 4 could be traded were the offer good enough.

Of the rest of the list only Kreuzer, Buckley, V-Rainbow, Jaksch, Giles, Smith, Foster and rookies Sheehan, Gowers, Walsh, Byrne and Russell have any prospect and talent to be contributors when we will be competitive for a flag.

In other words the new coach should have a very free hand to trade for players, trade for draft picks and delist, to create a list of players who will best suit the intended game plan with the aim to have a flag competitive side by 2020.

What action should we Bigfooty posters/club members/supporters take?

1. We need to stop being apologists for lousy strategic decisions. We need to accept that decisions, like the appointment of MM as coach, or the recruitment of Daisy need to be objectively tested. This means setting objective targets (like games won against good sides in respect of the appointment of a coach or B&F votes in respect of a player recruited at great cost) so that the decision can be objectively assessed as a suceess or a failure.

2. We need to stop reliving the past. Whether Pagan was a good coach or not, whether our administration has stunk for 20 years, whether we were unfairly penalised in the early 2000s, whether one thinks sacking Ratts was a good idea or not, whether MM had a game plan or not is entirely irrelevant to Carlton 2016. The new coach, on a one-year contract, will have to show in year one at least the sort of development Alan Richardson showed at St Kilda - i.e. a commitment to long-term development whilst ensuring players earned selection and adherence to a game plan even when it leads to losses from turn-overs in execution of it. Those lossess are acceptable in year 1 (if there is a recognisable game plan) but much less so by year 3.

3. We need to petition the Club to be transparent and open in their plans for the future. To those that say this will undermine the current players and potentially derail or season I say "So what?". Players told that most of them will not be at the Club in years to come does not mean any individual player will not be there. I have suggested Tuohy (now aged 25) won't be around for a flag in 2020, when he turns 31. Of course I might be wrong as I might be about Tutt or (less likely) Watson. It will be up to each individual player to prove their on-going worth.

The upside in being open and transparent is that decisions to chop players (or keep players) can then be assessed in accordance with a consistent strategic purpose. Just as St Kilda have done with the off-loading of Dal Santo and Goddard whilst retaining Riewoldt and Montagne.
 
Windhover said:
The new coach would be offered a one year probationary contract. We only want a coach that wants to coach at Carlton AND has the self-confidence to believe that if given the chance the coach will prove themselves.

QUOTE]
.[/
Click to expand...
QUOTE]


Windy, this is the one point I have trouble with. I'm hoping that we can find someone with this self belief, but I would be gobsmacked if any potential coaches and their managers would accept that kind of deal. I don't have a problem with , say, a two year initial deal with options to extend. This would seem more palatable to any interested candidates.
Just my opinion
 
pepalenko said:
QUOTE]


Windy, this is the one point I have trouble with. I'm hoping that we can find someone with this self belief, but I would be gobsmacked if any potential coaches and their managers would accept that kind of deal. I don't have a problem with , say, a two year initial deal with options to extend. This would seem more palatable to any interested candidates.
Just my opinion
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My idea is that potential applicants would be told that a 1 year probationary deal was all they could apply for so those with egos that do not match their self-confidence would hopefully not apply. Given the salary on offer for a senior coach I would be very surprised (even gobsmacked) if no one applied for the job. Is there a risk that some very good candidates would not apply because of the lack of security? Sure. On the other hand there is also a risk the coach appointed for say 2 years is a stinker, like Mark Neeld, with all the turmoil sacking the coach mid-term creates. Further security of tenure would be available after the first year, possibly a 2-3 year contract.

The benefits of a 1 year deal, getting a coach who values the chance to coach at the level, wants to coach at Carlton and has the self-confidence to back themselves, out-weighs the risk of missing out on the best coach available. In any event sacked senior coaches don't do too badly. Look at Balme, Harvey, Voss and even Neeld himself.
 
pepalenko said:
QUOTE]


Windy, this is the one point I have trouble with. I'm hoping that we can find someone with this self belief, but I would be gobsmacked if any potential coaches and their managers would accept that kind of deal. I don't have a problem with , say, a two year initial deal with options to extend. This would seem more palatable to any interested candidates.
Just my opinion
Click to expand...

Spot on with this comment. How would you entice someone like a Ross Lyon to even think about considering Carlton as an option if this is a condition of employment. Any deal needs to be appropriately structured for whoever is considered to be the best candidate - setting pre-conditions like this just limits the effectiveness of running the best process to test the market for the best candidate.
 

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Windhover said:
My idea is that potential applicants would be told that a 1 year probationary deal was all they could apply for so those with egos that do not match their self-confidence would hopefully not apply. Given the salary on offer for a senior coach I would be very surprised (even gobsmacked) if no one applied for the job. Is there a risk that some very good candidates would not apply because of the lack of security? Sure. On the other hand there is also a risk the coach appointed for say 2 years is a stinker, like Mark Neeld, with all the turmoil sacking the coach mid-term creates. Further security of tenure would be available after the first year, possibly a 2-3 year contract.

The benefits of a 1 year deal, getting a coach who values the chance to coach at the level, wants to coach at Carlton and has the self-confidence to back themselves, out-weighs the risk of missing out on the best coach available. In any event sacked senior coaches don't do too badly. Look at Balme, Harvey, Voss and even Neeld himself.
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a 1 year deal, means that coach is blind sighted by having to get results quickly and wont coach for the future, i also doubt any talented coach would accept such a deal.. I would rather put my faith in a coach and give them the confidence to coach for the long term. I would give them a 5 year contract that can be terminated at 3 years if certain KPIs have not been met.
 
ItsAllAboutMe said:
a 1 year deal, means that coach is blind sighted by having to get results quickly and wont coach for the future, i also doubt any talented coach would accept such a deal.. I would rather put my faith in a coach and give them the confidence to coach for the long term. I would give them a 5 year contract that can be terminated at 3 years if certain KPIs have not been met.
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Blind sided?
If you dont change the culture around the coach you will keep getting the same results.
 
winterblueness said:
There will be no chance of greatness again for our club
Until we boot out the board.
I'm all for a Sayers/Fahour spill.
Time for big changes.
Time to save our club.
I hope they do it.
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How many signatures does it take from the members to overthrow the board or force a spill? Because I would love to get in contact with somebody with the power to lead the club to better things. What does it take?
 

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deadoralive said:
How many signatures does it take from the members to overthrow the board or force a spill? Because I would love to get in contact with somebody with the power to lead the club to better things. What does it take?
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Dont know but hopefully we will find out soon
Yes winter is coming
But after winter..spring.
The way of new life and hope.[emoji6]
 

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