Essendon cheating again?

[Grendel]

Well, i dont think my thread was in any way 'bomber bashing'.

My views on it are, if a player is employed by a club, then any outside/other transactions like this must be viewed with a little suspiscion surely?

Looking at it (the Lloyd deal) and try seeing how it would apply to other professions.

It would be like a politician being paid for being a member of parliment then getting bonus dollars for any TV broadcasts of when parliment sits. (Shocking thought that one)!

Im only using this as an example of how it could (is by some) be viewed. Its the being paid twice over by the same employer for the same job. Again, I do feel it is outside the 'spirt' of the rules, if not outside the rules as they stand.

Its a loophole as others have said, yet how often when loopholes are discovered are moves made to close those selfsame loopholes?

As I said in my first thread, who knows where it will go? I would believe the League would be looking to close the loophole not as 'Essendon' bashing, but to stop all other clubs moving to do similar deals in future. For if the deal is allowed to stand, it makes the salary cap a misnomer.

 

[windyhill]

Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
Why should I answer ?

I believe your club is cheating the salary cap by paying players under the table. And you've been getting away with it for years

Nothing you will say will try to convince me otherwise.

I have my beliefs - you have yours. Big deal.

You probably think my club is a rabble who can't recruit properly and relys on AFL handouts to survive.

Of course I could give you a point by point rebuttal to those accusations but why should I bother ?

I won't convince you, just the same as you won't convince me that Essendon are anything but an arrogant club that thinks it is above all others and plays 'mean and tricky' with the rules.

Oh and BTW spare me the name calling - its boring and stupid

cheers

We cheat,you beg (and take our *******s) I`m pretty happy with that deal.You will never see Essendon beg.

 

[choppy]

Originally posted by mantis


Have a look at the title of the topic & the first post, very objective view isn't it.

You obviously didn't see the question mark in the title. It was a question to invoke debate on the issue of players receiving payments outside the cap. What is unobjective about it. I said it was innovative but is it any different than paying a players wife, etc.

My opinion is that without a cap at least 4 teams in Victoria will fold. Thats why I don't think it should be approved.

 

[topdon]

Choppy...the word 'cheat' is highly emotive.

 

[choppy]

Originally posted by Shads

For anyone to say it's not within the rules and is cheating please
tell me where in the rule book it say's it is.

This is the AFL rule.
The total player payments focuses on total player payments rather than salary component only. Total player payments became the new formula for capping payments as part of the Collective Bargaining agreement between the AFL and AFLPA

It also says
Genuine marketing and promotional activity is excluded from the definition.

It then goes onto say
Conduct in breach of the total player payments is contained in rule 17 of the player rules. The rule includes clubs or players entering into, making or being party to any agreement or carrying out any scheme, plan, proposal, action, course of action which has the purpose or effect of
(i) contravening, circumventing or evading the operation of the TPP provisions;
(ii)offering or paying to a player or an associate benefits in cash or kind which would result in the TPP provisions in these rules being exceeded.

I would suggest that paying someone for a website contravenes rule (i) and (ii) above. What is the purpose of this other than to circumvent the total player payments.


All the above bullsh it aside, it gets down to one question. Why would the Essendon Football Club be bothered to enter into such a complicated agreement if they could simply pay him more money. Less overhead, easier. Why?

They cannot because they are right on the limit and are trying to evade the salary cap.

 

[choppy]

Originally posted by topdon
Choppy...the word 'cheat' is highly emotive.

Agree and with hindsight I may have worded the topic differently. I still would have raised it irrespective of which club.

 

[mantis]

Originally posted by choppy


They cannot because they are right on the limit and are trying to evade the salary cap.

That is only your opinion, you aren't privvy to the Bomber heirarchy's thinking, but once again you make a statement as if it is gospel.

I suggest you put IMHO next to your statements.

 

[Grendel]

Essendon are right on their salary cap limit, mantis.

They (the Dons) have been saying all season that they are almost resigned to losing a player (maybe two) because they are so close to the ceiling on the cap. This is common knowledge, so why would choppy need to put in a 'imho' in his post?

 

[Joel]

Originally posted by SydneyBomber


Dear 'More D|ckhead than goose',

Your attempts to label Essendon as cheats doing underhanded sleazy deals is laughable considering the rabble you support and their history of dodgy deals.

The reason Essendon supporters get annoyed about 'cheats' etc, is the fact that our current success is based on 10 years of hard work.
Our 'star' players like your Hird's, Mercuri's, Misiti's, have joined EFC as KIDS when they were worth nothing. Hird was pick # 78 remember?
The fact our coaching staff has worked with them to get them to the level they are now is testament to the hard work they do.

Half of our current 'youngsters' (Macca, Jacobs, McGrath etc) have been at the club for a few years now, and have been held back from the seniors to help their development.

In your case however, the Swans CANNOT recruit to save their lives, and continually buy the 'deadset *******s that everyone else rejects' (TM). You then have the hide to complain, and label other teams!

We don't BUY our players like you ready made, we know how to develop them.

There is a big difference, and why should we suffer for this?

PS. I remember writing a similar rant to this several weeks ago in response to your snide comments then. You didn't answer...

You wouldn't still have those players if you didn't cheat the cap.

 

[windyhill]

All thick heads...The players Essendon stuffed up with were,Paul Salmon,retired,Mark Harvey,retired and Tim watson,retired.How the current superbly assembled list gets a mention has me f ucked

 

[choppy]

Originally posted by mantis


That is only your opinion, you aren't privvy to the Bomber heirarchy's thinking, but once again you make a statement as if it is gospel.

I suggest you put IMHO next to your statements.

Fair enough, I was assuming that because I wrote it then it was my opinion only. Point taken but.

 

[M29]

Originally posted by windyhill
All thick heads...The players Essendon stuffed up with were,Paul Salmon,retired,Mark Harvey,retired and Tim watson,retired.How the current superbly assembled list gets a mention has me f ucked

Dont forget Benny Doolan, when we paid him heaps to come down from Sydney.

 

[mantis]

Maybe the Bombers could do what the Roos have done.
Get their top players to say they are taking a pay cut, looks good on paper, but how do we know that someone isn't paying the difference under the table.
Psuedo sportsmans nights, sponsors special functions. new cars, one can dream up all sorts of ways to cover up extra payments.

 

[Hawkforce]

What, you mean like James Hird's "pay cut", Mantis?

Tread carefully Sandie.

You never know when your foot might end up in your mouth!

 

[PiesPremiers]

Originally posted by windyhill
Except norf fans,who would consider our loose change as a freakin fortune.

now thats below the belt

 

[mantis]

Originally posted by Hawkforce
What, you mean like James Hird's "pay cut", Mantis?

Tread carefully Sandie.

You never know when your foot might end up in your mouth!

Bad luck, they have already made it public how they will make it up to Hird.

Roos haven't done that, just said their players are taking a pay cut, fair enough in Carey's case, because he probably isn't worth what he is being paid at the moment anyway.

And you all forget one thing, it was Ricky Nixon coming up with this idea, I haven't seen anywhere that the Bombers said they were accepting his proposal.

 

[Rooboy 96]

Originally posted by windyhill
All thick heads...The players Essendon stuffed up with were,Paul Salmon,retired,Mark Harvey,retired and Tim watson,retired.How the current superbly assembled list gets a mention has me f ucked

I love how Bomberfans think these players (oh and Benny Doolan) are the only players responsible for the TPP at Essendon during their "First Cheating Era"...

TPP means Total Player Payment... so back in 93 what would you do if you were Essendon and had to reduce some money in the TPP... would you sack one of your high priced recruits or delist a late draft pick player... ie James Hird???

 

[Shads]

Originally posted by choppy


This is the AFL rule.
The total player payments focuses on total player payments rather than salary component only. Total player payments became the new formula for capping payments as part of the Collective Bargaining agreement between the AFL and AFLPA

It also says
Genuine marketing and promotional activity is excluded from the definition.

It then goes onto say
Conduct in breach of the total player payments is contained in rule 17 of the player rules. The rule includes clubs or players entering into, making or being party to any agreement or carrying out any scheme, plan, proposal, action, course of action which has the purpose or effect of
(i) contravening, circumventing or evading the operation of the TPP provisions;
(ii)offering or paying to a player or an associate benefits in cash or kind which would result in the TPP provisions in these rules being exceeded.

I would suggest that paying someone for a website contravenes rule (i) and (ii) above. What is the purpose of this other than to circumvent the total player payments.

Thanks for the explanation but with all these rules as you have explained above and you seem to say cover the Lloyd deal then why did the AFL give approval then change their minds?

Surely if their was a rule to cover it then they would have said no in the first place....

 

[mantis]

I have just worked out how they have made up for the cut Carey has taken in his salary. Have a look at his hair tonight, how much did that wig cost the club.

 

[9th Tiger]

Originally posted by mantis
I have just worked out how they have made up for the cut Carey has taken in his salary. Have a look at his hair tonight, how much did that wig cost the club.

Gee, that is so funny. Must of taken a while for someone in your situation to think of a clever sentence like that

 

[walshy1993]

Originally posted by Rooboy 96


I love how Bomberfans think these players (oh and Benny Doolan) are the only players responsible for the TPP at Essendon during their "First Cheating Era"...

TPP means Total Player Payment... so back in 93 what would you do if you were Essendon and had to reduce some money in the TPP... would you sack one of your high priced recruits or delist a late draft pick player... ie James Hird???

i thought the club did do that when they discovered they were over and they got rid of alister carr, Glenn Manton etc

 

[Rooboy 96]

Originally posted by walshy1993


i thought the club did do that when they discovered they were over and they got rid of alister carr, Glenn Manton etc

Manton was delisted by Essendon in Feb 1995 (were you cheating in 94 as well as 93)... too little too late... Alister Carr??? I wish you would back this up with dates... instead of just throwing names around.... and who is etc???

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Rooboy 96
TPP means Total Player Payment... so back in 93 what would you do if you were Essendon and had to reduce some money in the TPP... would you sack one of your high priced recruits or delist a late draft pick player... ie James Hird???

Neither, they'd have rid themsleves of the likes of Micky Symons, Glen Kilpatrick, Brad Plain, Alan Ezard or Tony Daniher or Manton (who were all on the list in '93) before they delisted Hird Rooboy. Nice try, no cigar.


Choppy: Have a look at

http://www.afl.com.au/multimedia/item_2909.htm

Interesting eh?

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Grendel
Essendon are right on their salary cap limit, mantis.

They (the Dons) have been saying all season that they are almost resigned to losing a player (maybe two) because they are so close to the ceiling on the cap. This is common knowledge, so why would choppy need to put in a 'imho' in his post?

If that's all he'd said he wouldn't. However he also claimed Essendon were attempting to evade the salary cap. Unless he has info the rest of us aren't privy to that statement is an opinion.

It's all bunk anyway as Nixon has denied that the sale has taken place at all.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

so windyhill would rather be a cheat than a beggar huh ?

That just says it all about your club and its attitude mate ...

and you wonder why the rest of absolutely refuse to pay Essendon any respect at all.

Have a nice day - cheat