Excuses?

Funkalicous

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#26
cypher said:
Demetriou should be shot for changing that PP rule because we need talent more than any other side with Kouta, French and Lappin all ageing players. And so called Carlton supporters have the temerity to say Elliott wouldn't have let Demetriou hit us on Black Friday. That **************** with Parkin and Brittain are responsible for this situation not Denis.

That's my knee jerk post. :cool:
Wow. I must say I couldn't disagree with you more. We were a bad team in 2002. But we weren't this bad. Infact, if we didn't lose so many close games and have all those injuries, we probably wouldn't have finished last.

I'm afraid the buck has to stop with Pagan this year. No more hiding behind excuses. I understand only too well the challenges he faced when he came to the club, but that doesn't make him immune to criticism. Sure, he didn't create the salary cap issues, nor did he overpay our senior players, but let's look at some of the repercussions that have occured on Pagan's watch:
  • Only 5 minutes after he arrived, our b&f winner, McKernan became a dud. As did Beaumont, Murphy and a few other lesser players.
  • Then within the critical 2003 draft, he brought us Mott, Bannister, Bowyer, Deluca, and Kenna. -All did nothing.:thumbsdown:
  • Now we have guys like Fevola and Houlihan, who after initially improving, they are now going backwards.
I'm sure I could list many more if I really thought about it, but my point is, he has not done everything we have expected of him. Not by a long shot.

I wonder what would've happened if Brittian was still our coach. I admit he wasn't a good coach by any stretch of the imagination, but at least he had a gameplan and a group that was capable of working in cohesion. All we have now is a group of players lost at sea. :(
 

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Effes

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#27
Kennedy's leading and presenting will be very useful for years to come given we need to really get players on their own and make space for the other forwards. Fev and Waite will need to really improve their fitness over the coming weeks if they are to have any impact early on.
 

Funkalicous

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#28
Pagan said:
We can't get a PP at the next draft as we won 4.5 games last season. Its two seasons in a row of 4 games or less, not a total of less than 8 games unfortunately.:mad:
Can someone confirm this?

I always thought it was 8 games. :(
 

Pagan

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#29
cypher said:
We can get a PP pick after round one if we win less than 22 points this year. But we can make a submission for special assistance from the AFL via draft picks if we're that bad.

That's a better decision than accessing the CBF.
Correct, after round 1. Wonder if they would allow us to get one before round 1 if we asked?:cool:
 

Funkalicous

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#30
JeffDunne said:
Now why didn't I think of that? ;)

Guys I think you are over-reacting . . . Port were stung by the criticism they received in Adelaide last week, it was pretty fierce. They were always going to come out and try and put on a solid performance. Your boys probably expected to be playing in Cairns this week, so it's understandable on a hot day they may have been on a downer.

I wouldn't read too much into it, but I guess I always thought the team would struggle this year.

Disappointing day for the club given the wider activities at Princes Park.
My main concern isn't the personal. It's that we lack dicipline, direction, motivation, and leadership that bothers me. :(

Those are all simple attributes that usually come with being a professional unit. I don't think I've ever seen a side (in any sport) so uninterested in doing what's necessary to succeed. If this was a battalion of soldiers, they would've died 30 times over already..... Actually, that might be the answer. Maybe we should enrol the side into military school! :)
 
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#31
First of all, in the draft we only picked up a few players, not a new team, we have to expect to be down this year and even next year, but i beleive pagan is the right man for the job, time is what we need, and good management with our picks in the draft.Every team has there down period, ours will be longer due to bad management of our list, and poor decisions through our former president and board, but as history goes no team stays down for ever.
 

JeffDunne

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#32
Funkalicous said:
I don't think I've ever seen a side (in any sport) so uninterested in doing what's necessary to succeed.
I could show you a few games. ;)

Actually I could show you plenty. :(


You know my views on where the problems are at Carlton and that's at the top. Pagan is stuggling but compare the support he's getting compared to other clubs and other coaches. Leadership starts at the top and I'm afraid Collo has shown zero. Some of his comments in the media have to of gotten players off side. I think fresh blood and new idea's are needed but I think you know my views so no need to repeat it all.
 

Silvagnis

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#33
Funkalicous said:
Wow. I must say I couldn't disagree with you more. We were a bad team in 2002. But we weren't this bad. Infact, if we didn't lose so many close games and have all those injuries, we probably wouldn't have finished last.

I'm afraid the buck has to stop with Pagan this year. No more hiding behind excuses. I understand only too well the challenges he faced when he came to the club, but that doesn't make him immune to criticism. Sure, he didn't create the salary cap issues, nor did he overpay our senior players, but let's look at some of the repercussions that have occured on Pagan's watch:
  • Only 5 minutes after he arrived, our b&f winner, McKernan became a dud. As did Beaumont, Murphy and a few other lesser players.

  • McKernan, Beaumont and Murphy were gone anyway and it's a mystery how you can use the departure of such 'stars" as a cross against Pagan. We won ten games the year after they left and were lucky to catch better sides off guard at home.

    Campo should have been out there today if he gave a ******** and we just don't have the cattle.

    They were duds regardless and had to go, just like Campo.
    • Then within the critical 2003 draft, he brought us Mott, Bannister, Bowyer, Deluca, and Kenna. -All did nothing.:thumbsdown:
    • Now we have guys like Fevola and Houlihan, who after initially improving, they are now going backwards.
    I'm sure I could list many more if I really thought about it, but my point is, he has not done everything we have expected of him. Not by a long shot.
    And that's all due to Pagan rather than their attitude and ability?

    Fev had a bung groin last year and Pagan should have beeen smarter and rested him near the end of the year.

    Houla is just a crab.
    I wonder what would've happened if Brittian was still our coach. I admit he wasn't a good coach by any stretch of the imagination, but at least he had a gameplan and a group that was capable of working in cohesion. All we have now is a group of players lost at sea. :(
    Brittain won a spoon for Richmond.
 

Effes

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#34
JeffDunne said:
I think fresh blood and new idea's are needed but I think you know my views so no need to repeat it all.
There will be some fresh blood hopefully after the elections;)

Blues fans, make sure you are registered to vote (if you are over 18 :( )

Vote 1 Marcus Clarke:thumbsu:
 

Toots Hibbert

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#36
Hopefully you guys won't see this as interfering. IMO in every side there is a fair percentage of players who can play well when the side is in reasonable shape but struggle when key players are missing. It is only really good players who can perform well when the side is down and out. Things can look really grim for a side but the injection of just a few good players can have a major effect. I think the word is synergy :- "The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects". When a side is performing poorly every player is under pressure from the opposition that they wouldn't experience in a better performing side. Any flaws in their game get exposed. There are some pretty average players that look good in premiership sides but put them in a weak side and suddenly they are seen in a different light.

Players who now look to be unpromising in your side could look completely diferrent propositions with the addition of a small number of the right players. Another factor is the maturing of younger players into experienced footballers.

I remember when Port were struggling around 2000 there were commentators saying that Mark Williams didn't have the cattle. That all turned around quite quickly and I think the same could happen at Carlton sooner than you might think when looking at the situation today.
 

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BlueWorld

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#37
Toots Hibbert said:
Hopefully you guys won't see this as interfering. IMO in every side there is a fair percentage of players who can play well when the side is in reasonable shape but struggle when key players are missing. It is only really good players who can perform well when the side is down and out. Things can look really grim for a side but the injection of just a few good players can have a major effect. I think the word is synergy :- "The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects".

Players who now look to be unpromising in your side could look completely diferrent propositions with the addition of a small number of the right players. Another factor is the maturing of younger players into experienced footballers.
Not sure we have too many key players missing though. A few out of condition/ form yes (Fev, Waite, Thornton, ?Saddington). It's only a practice match, it was very hot & Port were a lot more fired up than we were.
 

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#38
irish_setanta said:
First of all, in the draft we only picked up a few players, not a new team, we have to expect to be down this year and even next year, but i beleive pagan is the right man for the job, time is what we need, and good management with our picks in the draft.Every team has there down period, ours will be longer due to bad management of our list, and poor decisions through our former president and board, but as history goes no team stays down for ever.
Ever heard of a club called Fitzroy? I was there for the first half today and we are worse than what they were, i just don't know what they are doing at training when 95% of the team can't hit a target from 30 mtrs, they can't tackle and they have no evasive skills whatsoever. I am furious after today that was embarrassing, i've been positive all pre-season and when a club that i love is decimated to the point where a little league side has better skills there is something amiss, and i'm not talking about the young guys i'm talking about senior players. We should play a practice match against the Bullants and i bet with there game style and coaching they would kick our asses. Pagan has stuffed them in the head they use no inititive, play with no flair of any kind and have no passion for the jumper they wear.:mad:
 

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#39
practice match.
Let it slide.

for now

Just remember these pelicans jumping up and down about our demise atm.

We'll be back.
and the football world will shudder under our wrath.
 

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#40
Ofcourse we should be a bit ********ed off about it but it isn't that bad... we got flogged yes, its still preseason... we gave out a few ass kickings ourselves last preseason and it meant nothing. So it doesn't mean much at all.
 

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#41
igt22265 said:
practice match.
Let it slide.

for now

Just remember these pelicans jumping up and down about our demise atm.

We'll be back.
and the football world will shudder under our wrath.
couldn't agree more. It's shattering to put in a display like that, but it is just a practice game. We don't know what Pagan was trying to achieve today. He obviously didn't want to get beaten by that much but guys may have been under strict instructions under certain circumstances. Who knows?

If we play like that in round 1 I'll be on board with almost everything said here, but I, for 1, expect us to be quite competitive this season. No huge predictions, but better than last year. We are no champion team, nor are we full of champion players..... yet. :cool:

We need time. You don't turn around the sort of season we had last year in one pre-season.

Before we all decide that Pagan should be sacked, the board should quit and our entire playing list should be disbanded, let's at least have a look at the real stuff in a few weeks time. When the game matters we'll see which players stand up to be counted. Then we can judge.
 

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#42
I know its a totally different era and the players we had then were a couple of classes above what we got now (no disrespect to any of the current day players) but I remember in 1995 we played a pre-season game against Essendon and got flogged by close to a 100pts, now I am not saying we are going to win the flag or even make the eight but it is only a pre-season game so don't give up hope.
 

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#43
BLUEBOY1 said:
I know its a totally different era and the players we had then were a couple of classes above what we got now (no disrespect to any of the current day players) but I remember in 1995 we played a pre-season game against Essendon and got flogged by close to a 100pts, now I am not saying we are going to win the flag or even make the eight but it is only a pre-season game so don't give up hope.
Thank you Blueboy.Your comments help bring things into perspective and ease the pain.I just hope we can be better prepared for round 1.Unfortunately it looks like we have to fast track Hartlett and Bower,just leave them in from now,no stints in the 2s.I can't wait for Livo and Saddington to join in.It should help change things a bit.
 

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#44
I feel sorry for Terry Daniher. What is he supposed to do?

Why do we have a forwards coach with the way we deliver the ball? We will be just as well off with some scrub in the stands rubbing a lucky rabbits foot.

:(
 

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#45
BlueWorld said:
Not sure we have too many key players missing though. A few out of condition/ form yes (Fev, Waite, Thornton, ?Saddington). It's only a practice match, it was very hot & Port were a lot more fired up than we were.
I don't mean missing from your current squad but rather players you might recruit or players who step up in the next 12 months through maturation. I'm just suggesting that maybe a small change in your playing staff is sometimes all that is necessary for the side to click and suddenly unheralded players can begin to show ability that previously was not apparent.
 

BlueWorld

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#46
BLUEBOY1 said:
I know its a totally different era and the players we had then were a couple of classes above what we got now (no disrespect to any of the current day players) but I remember in 1995 we played a pre-season game against Essendon and got flogged by close to a 100pts, now I am not saying we are going to win the flag or even make the eight but it is only a pre-season game so don't give up hope.
This time last year we looked $1 million. 2 months later we looked like ****. Maybe in 2 months we'll look better. We won't be under scrutiny like last year & we certainly know where we're at now!
 

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#47
I'm not sure what the hell is going on in the NAB cup this year. The only team to have strung together any sort of game plan is Collingwood. I'm going to reserve any judgements until after, atleast, round 5.

I'm not sure Dennis Pagan has given much indication of being a positive force at Carlton, I will say at this point.

His unwaivering direct gameplan doesn't work, nor does his paddock that he likes to revert to occassionally. Hitting up Fevola from leads from the square started to work for him in 2004 hence the 10 wins, but you need a fully fit, happy, Fev for that.

I believe it was Mick Malthouse that said coaching against Dennis isn't a challenge. No matter what the situation Dennis sticks with a similar game plan and is unwaivering from it.

I haven't seen a system involving Waite, Fisher, Fevola and Setanta yet so I guess that'll be the real test.
 

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#48
For those who went to the game, how did we do?
Not worried about the Tredreas Cornes' etc but the younger ones like Thomson, Ebert, Salopek, Chaplin, Pettigrew, Surjan, Symes & co.
Any news would be greatly appreciated as I do not trust or believe radio commentators as much as people on these boards.

Thanks
 

*PAF

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#49
Funkalicous said:
Can someone confirm this?

I always thought it was 8 games. :(
Ah, yes double whoops. I forgot your 1/2 game, and it was against us of all teams.
Maximum 4 wins per season over 2 consecutive seasons is correct.
 

SMOO

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#50
Excuses?

Who plays footy in this weather?Winter sport
Should have been played 10.30 am
Its a practice match, so is it really an indication
Not overly fussed, but saying that you dont wanna get trounced by that amount in any game
And next wek we are going to who the ******** is alice.
 
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