Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

[romeoh]

That was Wolf



That was Straughan. Wolf's response was to call her a rape apologist.

The often quoted 6% figure should be examined also. The Stern Review looked into it.

The way the conviction rate figure for rape is calculated is unusual. Conviction rates are not published or even measured in this way for any other crime so it is very difficult to make a comparison. The use of the term ‘conviction rate’ is in itself unusual. ‘Conviction rate’ usually describes the percentage of all the cases brought to court that end with the defendant being convicted. When dealing with rape the term has come to be used in a different way and describes the percentage of all the cases recorded by the police as a rape that end up with someone being convicted of rape. The figure arrived at is usually around six per cent. Some studies show that a further six per cent are convicted of another offence, usually a less serious sexual offence, but still convicted, so the conviction rate by this method of analysis is 12 per cent.

In the course of this review we have looked closely at the information about convictions for rape and we deal with this matter in more detail in Chapter Three. It is clear to us that the figure of convictions for people of all ages charged with rape is 58 per cent, as the term is normally used in relation to crime.​

Yep you might question Wolf's numbers but do you think she made it up? And yep the figures might be hard to arrive at, and the conviction rate might be much higher but suspect a quick google will confirm that the rate of conviction is too low ( lower than most other serious crimes?) and as well, that still many women don't report rapes. The rape cases are obviously fraught with complexities, and yep, someone can tell lies on both sides etc. But there seems to be quite a lot of this crime going on and whilst Wolf could have used less inflammatory language, she had a not unreasonable point.
But why focus on Wolf's attitude-why not focus on the serious information she was trying to impart? Is rape a serious problem in most societies? Is the conviction rate too low? Yes and yes. So if Wolf is too much of a 'feminist' for you people, go and do your own research and like her, recognize there is a problem and go and work hard to try and change things.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Yep you might question Wolf's numbers but do you think she made it up? And yep the figures might be hard to arrive at but suspect a quick google will confirm that the rate of conviction is too low and as well, that still many women don't report rapes. The rape case are obviously fraught with complexities, and yep. someone can tell lies on both sides etc. But there seems to be quite a lot of rapes going on and whilst Wolf could have used less inflammatory language, she had a not unreasonable point. But why focus on Wolf's attitude-why not focus on the serious information she was trying to impart?

It's one thing to bring up and criticize low conviction rates, but unless you're actually going to bring up examples or suggestions of how to solve the problem, increase convictions or speak about what the legal system is doing wrong then it's a pretty empty statement to make.

As Karen said, rape is two things: 1) the lack of consent of the victim and 2) the awareness of the perpetrator. These two things make rape very hard to prosecute because a lot of the time it is the victims word against the perpetrators. Convicting and imprisoning an innocent person is probably the greatest injustice anyone can face outside of being murdered or paralyzed, so generally the legal system is going to lean conservatively when it comes to convictions without solid evidence.

The comparison made by Wolf was that murderers don't have impunity, but rapists do, and although that is sadly true, as Karen stated, this is primarily because sex is a legal act committed by millions of people on a daily basis while it is always illegal to murder someone.

 

[Lester Burnham]

Yep you might question Wolf's numbers but do you think she made it up? And yep the figures might be hard to arrive at, and the conviction rate might be much higher but suspect a quick google will confirm that the rate of conviction is too low ( lower than most other serious crimes?) and as well, that still many women don't report rapes. The rape cases are obviously fraught with complexities, and yep, someone can tell lies on both sides etc. But there seems to be quite a lot of this crime going on and whilst Wolf could have used less inflammatory language, she had a not unreasonable point.

But why focus on Wolf's attitude-why not focus on the serious information she was trying to impart? Is rape a serious problem in most societies? Is the conviction rate too low? Yes and yes. So if Wolf is too much of a 'feminist' for you people, go and do your own research and like her, recognize there is a problem and go and work hard to try and change things.

Wolf didn't make up her number but as the Stern Review stated, it's derived in a way that figures for other crimes are not.

I agree, rape is serious problem. But males are subject to sexual assault too. There will be the same issues of non-reporting, delayed reporting, high attrition rate from reporting to charges being laid, ambiguity of consent etc. Looking at things from the feminist perspective does not add value to a discussion of the problem. Particularly not by Wolf, who after playing the rape victim card, called someone who disagreed with her a rape apologist and makes inane statements like 'do you think women should be free from being r*ped'?

 

[romeoh]

It's one thing to bring up and criticize low conviction rates, but unless you're actually going to bring up examples or suggestions of how to solve the problem, increase convictions or speak about what the legal system is doing wrong then it's a pretty empty statement to make.

As Karen said, rape is two things: 1) the lack of consent of the victim and 2) the awareness of the perpetrator. These two things make rape very hard to prosecute because a lot of the time it is the victims word against the perpetrators. Convicting and imprisoning an innocent person is probably the greatest injustice anyone can face outside of being murdered or paralyzed, so generally the legal system is going to lean conservatively when it comes to convictions without solid evidence.

The comparison made by Wolf was that murderers don't have impunity, but rapists do, and although that is sadly true, as Karen stated, this is primarily because sex is a legal act committed by millions of people on a daily basis while it is always illegal to murder someone.

Pretty sure you will find that Wolf has done a fair bit more to address this issue than just making 'empty statements'. Probably done a lot more work in the area than you or I sitting here sprouting on BF. Wolf can be over the top but she makes quite a few valid points.
Sex happens a lot, so yep tricky area and putting innocent people in prison is terrible but none of that diminishes the crime of rape, nor lessens the fact that it happens quite a bit without the perpetrator facing legal consequences and I don't see any problem with that being highlighted.

 

[romeoh]

Wolf didn't make up her number but as the Stern Review stated, it's derived in a way that figures for other crimes are not.

I agree, rape is serious problem. But males are subject to sexual assault too. There will be the same issues of non-reporting, delayed reporting, high attrition rate from reporting to charges being laid, ambiguity of consent etc. Looking at things from the feminist perspective does not add value to a discussion of the problem. Particularly not by Wolf, who after playing the rape victim card, called someone who disagreed with her a rape apologist and makes inane statements like 'do you think women should be free from being r*ped'?

Males are subject to assault too( though not nearly the same numbers) so why not draw attention to that being a problem regardless of gender.
I can't see how a 'feminist perspective'-whatever that means, or any other perspective can't also be valid and worth hearing.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

I can't see how a 'feminist perspective'-whatever that means, or any other perspective can't also be valid and worth hearing.

The problem with the feminist perspective is that it far too often dismisses and trivializes the injustices faced by those outside of their target demographic.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

The problem with the feminist perspective is that it far too often dismisses and trivializes the injustices faced by those outside of their target demographic.

If feminism is to be regarded as a group, their target market is at least half of the world's population.

Besides, name me an interest group that doesnt put their own issues at the forefront of their outlook.

 

[Lester Burnham]

Males are subject to assault too( though not nearly the same numbers) so why not draw attention to that being a problem regardless of gender.

Assault of a non-sexual nature is much more prevalent than sexual assault and the victims are much more likely to be male. Are feminists drawing attention to that being a problem regardless of gender?

I can't see how a 'feminist perspective'-whatever that means, or any other perspective can't also be valid and worth hearing.

Some of the recent high profile cases of sexual assault have been i) in Australia where Catholic priests have been charged for sex offences against minors, ii)
Rotherham where 1,400 children had been sexually abused by gangs of British-Pakistani men iii) the extent of child sexual assault in Aboriginal communities. Please tell me how viewing these issues from a feminist perspective helps to elucidate the problems. It seems that feminists avoid these issues because they do not support their narrative of white men imposing their will over white women.

 

[romeoh]

Assault of a non-sexual nature is much more prevalent than sexual assault and the victims are much more likely to be male. Are feminists drawing attention to that being a problem regardless of gender?



Some of the recent high profile cases of sexual assault have been i) in Australia where Catholic priests have been charged for sex offences against minors, ii)
Rotherham where 1,400 children had been sexually abused by gangs of British-Pakistani men iii) the extent of child sexual assault in Aboriginal communities. Please tell me how viewing these issues from a feminist perspective helps to elucidate the problems. It seems that feminists avoid these issues because they do not support their narrative of white men imposing their will over white women.

Please explain what you mean by the 'feminist perspective'- I have no idea what you are on about. Surely there is a diverse range of views out there.
One can only hope that your 'poor men are so persecuted' and those nasty 'feminists' with avoidance issues isn't a widespread view.
Re your other points I can't see why its specifically up to 'feminists' to drive the agenda there.

 

[Lester Burnham]

Please explain what you mean by the 'feminist perspective'- I have no idea what you are on about. Surely there is a diverse range of views out there.

The one you said was valid and worth hearing two posts ago.

 

[romeoh]

The one you said was valid and worth hearing two posts ago.

Haha -the one I put in italics because I am quoting you and asking you to explain what you mean.
Comon-what do you mean? ( I would have thought it just means someone who likes equality)

 

[Lester Burnham]

Haha -the one I put in italics because I am quoting you and asking you to explain what you mean.
Comon-what do you mean? ( I would have thought it just means someone who likes equality)

Feminism. Does it sound like a word that just means equality? Or does it sound like advocates for feminism are promoting one group above others?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Feminism. Does it sound like a word that just means equality? Or does it sound like advocates for feminism are promoting one group above others?

Why did feminism emerge as a movement?

 

[romeoh]

Feminism. Does it sound like a word that just means equality? Or does it sound like advocates for feminism are promoting one group above others?

Uhuh, well it sounds to me like maybe you can't actually articulate what you meant by the 'feminist perspective', because I have asked you a couple of times now and keep getting evasive responses.
Pretty sure the 'feminist' movement, emerged so that women could get equal opportunity, equal pay, educational and career access and so forth. They strike me as quite worthy aims-so if that is what you mean by 'feminist perspective', I understand their views would be therefore, worth hearing.
Also strikes me that like every other organization, they would pursue actions that help achieve their aims. And if, as it happens, women are the most at risk in the rape crime area, then I am not surprised that they promote it. Simple really.

 

[tesseract]

The problem with the feminist perspective is that it far too often dismisses and trivializes the injustices faced by those outside of their target demographic.

This is the most obvious reason of many that feminism doesn't stand for the equality it claims to espouse. For feminism claims to be fighting for men and women equally, yet it contradicts its own rhetoric in action when it solely focuses on the issues of the female sex. It shows that feminists only pay lip service to the notion of equality. Feminists use the term 'equality' and the dictionary definition as a rhetorical shield. The intellectually honest and aware among us simply see the feminist hypocrisy as exactly that.

 

[tesseract]

As we've witnessed in feminism-related threads on SRP by feminists and their gynocentric collaborators and enablers, when you look at the tactics and strategy of feminists and feminist organizations you see censorship, silencing, intimidation, blacklisting, harassment and violence through proxy, (or mangina white-knights threatening violence, as has been the case on this very board). Now you put all that stuff together and you take away the label 'feminism' and the details of what that censorship is in behalf of, what you have is fascism. The myth of feminism is that it stands for equality. I suppose what feminists actually meant is 'equality only among feminism's adherents'.

 

[scon]

. The intellectually honest and aware among us

Don't post hysterically delusional horseshit.

 

[tesseract]

Don't post hysterically delusional horseshit.

Hahahahaha! Thank you. You just put an exclamation mark on my point.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

If feminism is to be regarded as a group, their target market is at least half of the world's population.

Besides, name me an interest group that doesnt put their own issues at the forefront of their outlook.

Which is precisely why the "feminist perspective" isn't helpful when discussing the issues of all people.

 

[scon]

Oh for the day when sad-boy-aggro-knob-ends-united fix gender relations and then the world!!

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Oh for the day when sad-boy-aggro-knob-ends-united fix gender relations and then the world!!

Oh for the day when Fremantle finally wins a premiership. #nevergonnahappen

 

[Grin]

I reckon some on this thread would agree that the Taliban and Boko Haram know how to treat women.

Myself, I've never understood this great fear and loathing of feminism and equal opportunity.

 

[romeoh]

This is the most obvious reason of many that feminism doesn't stand for the equality it claims to espouse. For feminism claims to be fighting for men and women equally, yet it contradicts its own rhetoric in action when it solely focuses on the issues of the female sex. It shows that feminists only pay lip service to the notion of equality. Feminists use the term 'equality' and the dictionary definition as a rhetorical shield. The intellectually honest and aware among us simply see the feminist hypocrisy as exactly that.

Haha -When has the 'feminist movement' claimed to be fighting for men and women equally? Their concerns are for women, the gender that has long been disadvantaged and discriminated against.
Can you check the stats for rape/domestic violence and see if one gender is still more at risk?
Judging by some of the fear shown in this thread, there is still plenty of work to be done to achieve equality on all levels.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Which is precisely why the "feminist perspective" isn't helpful when discussing the issues of all people.

That's why anyone who is informed knows there is no feminist movement; there are movements.

Liberal, socialist, sexual, political, personal, Western-oriented, developing world-oriented.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

As we've witnessed in feminism-related threads on SRP by feminists and their gynocentric collaborators and enablers, when you look at the tactics and strategy of feminists and feminist organizations you see censorship, silencing, intimidation, blacklisting, harassment and violence through proxy, (or mangina white-knights threatening violence, as has been the case on this very board).

Links?