Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

[Lester Burnham]

Uhuh, well it sounds to me like maybe you can't actually articulate what you meant by the 'feminist perspective', because I have asked you a couple of times now and keep getting evasive responses.
Pretty sure the 'feminist' movement, emerged so that women could get equal opportunity, equal pay, educational and career access and so forth. They strike me as quite worthy aims-so if that is what you mean by 'feminist perspective', I understand their views would be therefore, worth hearing.
Also strikes me that like every other organization, they would pursue actions that help achieve their aims. And if, as it happens, women are the most at risk in the rape crime area, then I am not surprised that they promote it. Simple really.

I was waiting for you because you seemed to be in support of something without stating what it was. What you have described is the feminist movement from about about 50 years ago, and the objectives have mainly been achieved in the Western world (and not necessarily as a result of the feminist movement). If that's all it is about then I would class myself as a feminist. An 'equity feminist'. But I'm talking about more current radical views.

Here's a textbook definition of the feminist perspective.

Gender stratification occurs when gender differences give men greater privilege and power over women, transgender and gender-non-conforming people.

Feminist theory uses the conflict approach to examine the reinforcement of gender roles and inequalities, highlighting the role of patriarchy in maintaining the oppression of women.

Feminism focuses on the theory of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on the assertion of male supremacy.
​

So the assumption is that males are inherently privileged in our society, males systematically oppress females, and measures are needed to address this oppression. This is brand of feminism opposed by many people who would label themselves as feminists.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Here's a textbook definition of the feminist perspective.

There's your first mistake.

That's a poor, sterile definition.

​

So the assumption is that males are inherently privileged in our society, males systematically oppress females, and measures are needed to address this oppression. This is brand of feminism opposed by many people who would label themselves as feminists.

Are you suggesting men and women have the same outcomes, both in and outside the West?

What I find jawdropping about anti feminists is how historically blind they are. Do they think the thousands of years of systematic oppression was obliterated or reversed in a generation?

 

[WA ROO]

I reckon some on this thread would agree that the Taliban and Boko Haram know how to treat women.

Bullshit

 

[Grin]

Bullshit

Bullshit like when righties refer to Labor and Greens voters as communists?

 

[WA ROO]

Bullshit like when righties refer to Labor and Greens voters as communists?

As I see it Labor are Sinn Fein to the Unions IRA
The Greens are Watermelons

 

[AngryRanga]

Can you check the stats for rape/domestic violence and see if one gender is still more at risk?

I can't be bothered finding the stats but rape and domestic violence has been dropping for absolutely ages. Females are more at risk and everyone is working to fix that. Rape is a crime that people are learning more and more about, and will continue to drop. There will always be a certain amount of rapes just like a certain amount of murders.

So what does feminism do while rape and domestic violence are slowly improving? While other inequality is happening in the third world, what are they doing in the first world? Try to install a guilty until proven innocent approach for one of the most muddled, hard to decide crimes. Starting campaigns to stop men taking too much space on public transport. Getting pissed off some scientist wore a shirt. Getting up in arms you can kill female NPC's in GTA. Find a stripper in a game, randomly kill them with no incentive, record it and then say that female NPC's are just things to murder or something. Feminists find male abuse hilarious. This is where I get my opinion of feminism from

Haha -When has the 'feminist movement' claimed to be fighting for men and women equally?

No really, are you serious? Really? ?

Judging by some of the fear shown in this thread, there is still plenty of work to be done to achieve equality on all levels.

Oh yes, the typical shaming. Point out where anyone has opposed equality please

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

So what does feminism do in the meantime? While actual inequality is happening in the third world, what are they doing in the first world? Try to install a guilty until proven innocent approach for one of the most muddled, hard to decide crimes. Starting campaigns to stop men taking too much space on public transport. Getting pissed off some scientist wore a shirt. Getting up in arms you can kill female NPC's in GTA. Find a stripper in a game, randomly kill them with no incentive, record it and then say that female NPC's are just things to murder or something. Feminists find male abuse hilarious. This is where I get my opinion of feminism from

You arent speaking from an informed position if you think feminism is soley concerned about developed world issues.

And is your assertion that feminists have given up solving the issue of rape so they focus on minor detached issues to be taken seriously, or are you stirring?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Oh and one of the funnier things about anti-feminists is their demand that feminists should represent males and females equally.

Aside from a pretty basic misunderstanding of how interest groups work, males have dominated power for milennia now some men think female centric groups trying to redress this arent considering male interests?

You can't make that shit up.

 

[Santana]

We had nothing to do with most of that male dominated millennia as we weren't alive for most of it. We also happen not to currently live in a male dominated society were women are expected to live their life's by strict gender roles. Are there problems facing females? Yes, but there are also problems facing males as well. We don't currently live in a society were either sex is massively disadvantaged over the other. This is why most normal people don't consider themselves feminist because they can see this.

I'm all for the sexes to be treated the same and for both sexes to have the opportunity to do what they want to do in life but when it comes to equality you can't just pick and choose what you want when it suits you like modern day feminists do.

"interest groups work"... interesting, I thought feminists were for both women's and men's interests and all they wanted was the sexes to be treated the same? Are we saying feminists aren't taking in men's interests as well? This can't be right.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

What I find jawdropping about anti feminists is how historically blind they are. Do they think the thousands of years of systematic oppression was obliterated or reversed in a generation?

Systematic laws went both ways. For the "authority" men had over women, there were always laws put in place to protect women and ensure that the man didn't abuse his wife and there were always consequences if he did. Is being protected by the system really "systematic oppression"?

What systematic laws men endured that women didn't was civil conscription. Men were tied to civil conscription and women weren't. This meant that all men had a obligation, that if they were told by a Fire Marshall that they had to line up and do a bucket brigade then they had no choice but to do it. If a man was commandeered by a police officer to help arrest a suspect then he had to do it. If a man was drafted to war then he had no choice or face imprisonment. Men were expected to risk their lives at the drop of a hat because of civil conscription, something which women have never been subjected to.

All of civil conscription was tied into the vote. Something which feminists often decry as a major injustice that men had and women didn't. But if all women were so "systematically oppressed" by not having to vote like feminists suggest then why was there anti-suffrage movement that was pioneered and driven by women to oppose the suffrage movements goal of voting?

While we are talking about injustices and "systematic oppression" then what about the thousands of young boys who died serving in WW1 without ever having the right to vote? How many women have died at war without having the right to vote exactly? I don't know of any. The same feminists who were campaigning for the vote were the same feminists who drove white feather campaigns to shame men into fighting at war.

Apart from all of that, do you honestly think that with the evolution of society, the major expansion of variety in jobs and the world generally being a much better place to live in post WW2 that women would be much worse off today had feminism never existed? There are so many different types of paths people can take in modern society that hasn't been available to past generations. Equality between the sexes was always going to be inevitable with the direction that society has been heading in the last half century, with or without feminism.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

I'm all for the sexes to be treated the same and for both sexes to have the opportunity to do what they want to do in life but when it comes to equality you can't just pick and choose what you want when it suits you like modern day feminists do.

Things arent equal. Are you saying thousands of years were reversed in 1 generation?

"interest groups work"... interesting, I thought feminists were for both women's and men's interests and all they wanted was the sexes to be treated the same? Are we saying feminists aren't taking in men's interests as well? This can't be right.

I don't understand your logic. Feminist groups should represent the interests of men?

 

[romeoh]

I can't be bothered finding the stats but rape and domestic violence has been dropping for absolutely ages. Females are more at risk and everyone is working to fix that. Rape is a crime that people are learning more and more about, and will continue to drop. There will always be a certain amount of rapes just like a certain amount of murders.

So what does feminism do while rape and domestic violence are slowly improving? While other inequality is happening in the third world, what are they doing in the first world? Try to install a guilty until proven innocent approach for one of the most muddled, hard to decide crimes. Starting campaigns to stop men taking too much space on public transport. Getting pissed off some scientist wore a shirt. Getting up in arms you can kill female NPC's in GTA. Find a stripper in a game, randomly kill them with no incentive, record it and then say that female NPC's are just things to murder or something. Feminists find male abuse hilarious. This is where I get my opinion of feminism from


No really, are you serious? Really? ?



Oh yes, the typical shaming. Point out where anyone has opposed equality please

Rape occurs way too frequently in the US where the show we are discussing was set so strikes me as a stupid argument. Domestic violence is on the increase in Australia-go and do some research.
The examples you give are just silly- extreme and obscure and uncommon.
To equate all actions, thoughts and behaviors as the 'feminists' is useless. Do all men hold the same antiquated views as you? Nope because there is diversity in thinking and movements.
People who fail to acknowledge that women are the victims of domestic violence more frequently, get killed by their spouses more, continue to always dispute the data in front of them, who still think the focus needs to be on poor old men, who obsess over the dopey ideas of extreme feminists as if they represent all women etc might have a few issues re female equality. Simple really.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Oh and one of the funnier things about anti-feminists is their demand that feminists should represent males and females equally.

Aside from a pretty basic misunderstanding of how interest groups work, males have dominated power for milennia now some men think female centric groups trying to redress this arent considering male interests?

You can't make that shit up.

No they haven't. A wealthy few have dominated power for millennia. The vast majority of men lived oppressed, poverty stricken lives just like the women.

 

[romeoh]

We had nothing to do with most of that male dominated millennia as we weren't alive for most of it. We also happen not to currently live in a male dominated society were women are expected to live their life's by strict gender roles. Are there problems facing females? Yes, but there are also problems facing males as well. We don't currently live in a society were either sex is massively disadvantaged over the other. This is why most normal people don't consider themselves feminist because they can see this.

I'm all for the sexes to be treated the same and for both sexes to have the opportunity to do what they want to do in life but when it comes to equality you can't just pick and choose what you want when it suits you like modern day feminists do.

"interest groups work"... interesting, I thought feminists were for both women's and men's interests and all they wanted was the sexes to be treated the same? Are we saying feminists aren't taking in men's interests as well? This can't be right.

Where do you get the idea that the fems want to cheer lead for men? I presume everyone things assault is terrible, rape is terrible and nobody should be exposed to such things regardless of gender. But I can't really see why men's rights are a cause for the women's movements.
Who started lobbying for AIDS funding? Did they also lobby for funding for prostate cancer? Who lobbied for the Gay rights movement? Did they also devote their time and energy to lobbying for climate change while they were at it? An interest group is concerned with their own interests primarily surely?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Systematic laws went both ways. For the "authority" men had over women, there were always laws put in place to protect women and ensure that the man didn't abuse his wife and there were always consequences if he did. Is being protected by the system really "systematic oppression"?

Are you claiming, historically speaking, that women have had equal access to freedom and power?

That is willfully ignorant.

Men were expected to risk their lives at the drop of a hat because of civil conscription, something which women have never been subjected to.While we are talking about injustices and "systematic oppression" then what about the thousands of young boys who died serving in WW1 without ever having the right to vote? How many women have died at war without having the right to vote exactly?

Wars started by men, in a system orchestrated by men. I think you'll find a lot of feminists share your hatred of war, and how it is a tool of the powerful.

But let's not pretend men are the sole victims of war. Please don't forget Rape and sexual assault during and after conflict. Not every victim wore a uniform.

*And in regards to WW1, this society oscillates between portraying them as both innocent lambs to the slaughter, and pioneering freedom worshipping heroes who went off because they wanted to. This country needs to get its story straight.

Equality between the sexes was always going to be inevitable with the direction that society has been heading in the last half century, with or without feminism.

Feminism doesnt exist in a bubble.

It was them, along with groups advocating for civil rights, anti-colonialism, union movements, gay groups etc that ensured society would change.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Where do you get the idea that the fems want to cheer lead for men? I presume everyone things assault is terrible, rape is terrible and nobody should be exposed to such things regardless of gender. But I can't really see why men's rights are a cause for the women's movements.
Who started lobbying for AIDS funding? Did they also lobby for funding for prostate cancer? Who lobbied for the Gay rights movement? Did they also devote their time and energy to lobbying for climate change while they were at it? An interest group is concerned with their own interests primarily surely?

Maybe when they started spewing out male suicide statistics in prominent feminist campaigns like #HeForShe

 

[JHF1870]

Women don't want equality, they want to be treated special and given the same rewards as men without doing the same amount or type of work. Look at construction sites, who is holding the slow sign and who is doing the real work?

There was a news story recently where a bus driver gave up his seat to a woman who was holding a child because the bus was full and no one would let her sit down. I've been in that exact situation and no one did jack shit to give me a seat. Do people give men who are 60 lbs overweight special treatment? nope, so why should a pregnant woman be given special treatment, it's alot easier to carry a 5 lb baby than to be 30 lbs overweight.

http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showth...inism-thread&p=6821077&viewfull=1#post6821077

I dont offer my seat up for anyone unless they are like in a walking frame or something. Could you imagine mistaking someone being pregnant. I actually cringe when people make a big hoo ha about giving up a seat

 

[romeoh]

Maybe when they started spewing out male suicide statistics in prominent feminist campaigns like #HeForShe

But who are they? Do they speak for all females? All feminists? All men? I don't know anything about them but don't see how you can take one organization and say it speaks for everyone. Who cares-if you don't like what one group says, find another who you do like and hopefully gravitate to one that deals in facts, rather than emotion.

 

[AngryRanga]

Rape occurs way too frequently in the US where the show we are discussing was set so strikes me as a stupid argument.

I have no idea what show you were discussing, or what this point was on about.

Domestic violence is on the increase in Australia-go and do some research.

Where is your research? I'll read that and enlighten myself.

The examples you give are just silly- extreme and obscure and uncommon.
To equate all actions, thoughts and behaviors as the 'feminists' is useless. Do all men hold the same antiquated views as you? Nope because there is diversity in thinking and movements.

"Try to install a guilty until proven innocent approach for one of the most muddled, hard to decide crimes."
The guilty until proven innocent approach last happened in early December, and some colleges in the USA are trying to make rules that literally say that men are guilty until proven innocent, and they have the burden of proof.

"Starting campaigns to stop men taking too much space on public transport."
This was a couple of days ago, and has got a ton of support. So obscure. So extremist.

"Getting pissed off some scientist wore a shirt."
How long ago was this, a month? Feminists bullied this guy who has just had a remarkable scientific achievement, into a sobbing apology on live TV. His apology was then criticised for 'not showing he understood what was wrong with the shirt'. Even though his female friend made the shirt for him.

"Getting up in arms you can kill female NPC's in GTA."
Once again, a month or so ago, so obscure. A petition that got 50k+ signatures because hookers can be killed in the game. As can any other character in the game.

"Find a stripper in a game, randomly kill them with no incentive, record it and then say that female NPC's are just things to murder or something."
Maybe 6 months ago I reckon.

"Feminists find male abuse hilarious."
This was more a general point, but it is completely true, and evidence of this always seems to crop up every couple of weeks. If you dispute this, let me know and I'll and find examples.

The examples you give are really obscure, extreme and uncommon. Obscure? No, these were quite easy to find. Uncommon? It was pretty easy for me to find these recent examples. Doesn't make it seem that uncommon. Extreme? All of the things I mentioned that are issues have a heap of support, so there must be many extreme feminists.

I equate these actions, thoughts, behaviours to feminists because of the amount of support they get from feminists.

My antiquated views? Please, point them out and I'll address them. You can't simply disagree with your side of the argument without being put down can you.

 

[Santana]

Things arent equal. Are you saying thousands of years were reversed in 1 generation?



I don't understand your logic. Feminist groups should represent the interests of men?

We're constantly told by feminists that all their movement is about is the sexes being treated equally. We are told that their movement is for both women and men. We're told by the feminists not to worry about issues that face males because they've got them covered.

If the feminist movement would actually cut the BS and admit they're only about women's interests and rights they would get more respect. If they admitted for once that they only really believe in true equality when it suits them and really couldn't care less about male issues then they would get less hate. But no, as long as they continue to pretend to be about true equality when they only care about one side of the story most people will continue will point and ridicule them, as they should.

Why would the average man go out of his way to help feminist's on women's issues when he knows it won't be returned even a little bit? I'm all for giving an massively disadvantaged group a helping hand but women are not that in today's society. I wish there was a movement that worked towards true equality between females and males but feminism is not that.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

We're constantly told by feminists that all their movement is about is the sexes being treated equally.

It's about much more. And of course, there are many definitions of equal.

We are told that their movement is for both women and men.

It isn't?

We're told by the feminists not to worry about issues that face males because they've got them covered.

Huh?

If the feminist movement would actually cut the BS and admit they're only about women's interests and rights they would get more respect.

I think feminist groups make it pretty clear they are in interest group for women.

Do you want them to represent white, male interests? There is already a group that does that.

I genuinely am flummoxed some posters on here want interest groups to represent...ahhh...everyone.

Why would the average man go out of his way to help feminist's on women's issues when he knows it won't be returned even a little bit?

What would you like?

I wish there was a movement that worked towards true equality between females and males but feminism is not that.

Im glad you can admit society isnt equal.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Are you claiming, historically speaking, that women have had equal access to freedom and power?

That is willfully ignorant.

You said that women have been "systematically oppressed" for thousands of years which is factually incorrect.

Oppression by definition is the "prolonged cruel or unjust treatment of by an authority" (which is what whites did to blacks, i.e. slavery), so how can women have suffered systematic oppression when there have always been laws in place to punish men who exercise cruel and unjust treatment upon their wives? Even so, it's highly unrealistic to assume that anymore then a minority of men would impose cruel and unjust treatment upon the people who they form their strongest bonds with (their wives) in any generation. Most men aren't sociopaths.

Also, given the lack of variety in jobs and careers until the last half century for middle class citizens, having the luxury of being at home and spending time with your children while your husband goes and works an unfulfilling and depressing hard labor job for 45 hours a week to support the whole family is not oppression.

If what women have experienced throughout thousands of years of history is "oppression" then feminism would have existed centuries before the last 100 years. It was only until the last century or so that men began to prosper from being a man (primarily because of the groundwork built by the generations and generations of men who came before them) and feminism came about because upper class woman wanted in on the prosperity that men were experiencing. After all, feminism was pioneered by privileged higher upper class white women, not typical middle class working women who were too busy doing enough just to get by.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

You said that women have been "systematically oppressed" for thousands of years which is factually incorrect.

Oppression by definition is the "prolonged cruel or unjust treatment of by an authority" (which is what whites did to blacks, i.e. slavery), so how can women have suffered systematic oppression when there have always been laws in place to punish men who exercise cruel and unjust treatment upon their wives?

There were laws in place to punish abuse of slaves, in many instances.

Regardless, I don't know you're fixating on these 'laws' to prove women have not endured an unequal amount of repression throughout history.

Also, given the lack of variety in jobs and careers until the last half century for middle class citizens, having the luxury of being at home and spending time with your children while your husband goes and works an unfulfilling and depressing hard labor job for 45 hours a week to support the whole family is not oppression.

Motherhood is a hard labor job for 24 hours a day. And its unpaid. Don't be an idiot.

The freedom and agency afforded from being able to work and earn money and control and decisions etc can't be compared to being shackled to a stove.

This argument is little more than trolling.

If what women have experienced throughout thousands of years of history is "oppression" then feminism would have existed centuries before the last 100 years.

It did. Read.

Are you claiming the absence of a mass movement meant claims to gender equality were unwarranted?

After all, feminism was pioneered by privileged higher upper class white women, not typical middle class working women who were too busy doing enough just to get by.

Absolutely.

But being white and upper class would also mean Liberal and Parliamentary forms of democracy are also illegitimate.

If you inform yourself, you'll see many feminist movements have looked to the plight of women and girls in the developing world, and working class women in the developed world.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Motherhood is a hard labor job for 24 hours a day. And its unpaid. Don't be an idiot.

Lol. Now you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Lol. Now you're embarrassing yourself.

Do you have a point to make, or just a link from an ordinary comedian?