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First 22 in 2023

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Out of all the off-season shoulder surgery guys Joe is the only one that looks ready for round 1.
Assuming he gets through the Cats game unscathed.
The others may be available in time, but it is a little concerning at present.

Need to get through tonight's game and up to round 1 without further injuries/suspension and things may not appear as bad.
 
Nathan Barley said:
I'd go with Fort as the sub for round 1 or play Joyce. Need a bit of height against Port
Click to expand...
As long as Joyce plays ok tonight, I think he will get a gig in round 1 with Gardiner likely still unavailable.
 
Dalions said:
As long as Joyce plays ok tonight, I think he will get a gig in round 1 with Gardiner likely still unavailable.
Click to expand...
I have only watched Joyce play 1 VFL game v us Lions. So, a very small sample size.
This was intentional as i wanted to see what he can produce. So, i was paying attention to his game.
Fullarton easily out marked him on 2 occasions, and it was a 50/50 contest.
Joyce picked up 16 disposals that day, 4 from kick ins.
He was basically unsighted so did nothing special in a VFL game.

Having said all of the above he has been given another chance and most likely his last.
He knows this, so Joyce should be trying his guts out to show the club something.
Whatever he can produced tonight will be his best so it will be interesting to see how he goes.
Assuming he is given much time on the field in the first place.

We desperately need depth in defense this year so i hope he can fill a role when and if called upon.
He is 26 in April, been in the AFL system for some time so he should be at his best or close to it now.
 

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I'd go for round 1

B: Starcevich Andrews Joyce/Fullarton
HB: Coleman Payne/Joyce Rich
C: Prior Dunkley Berry/Tunstill
HF: Hipwood Daniher Bailey
FF: Cameron Gunston McCarthy
Ruck: Fort McCluggage Neale
Bench: McInerney, Ashcroft, Rayner and Wilmott
 
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Nathan Barley said:
I'd go for round 1

B: Starcevich Andrews Joyce/Fullarton
HB: Coleman Payne/Joyce Rich
C: Prior Dunkley Berry/Tunstill
HF: Hipwood Daniher Bailey
FF: Cameron Daniher McCarthy
Ruck: Fort McCluggage Neale
Bench: McInerney, Ashcroft, Rayner and Wilmott
Click to expand...

Tall team with two Danihers, Fort and McInerney on the bench.
 
B: Starc, Andrews, Rayner
HB: Coleman, Payne, Rich
C: Tunstill, Luggage, Berry
HF: CC, Daniher, Bailey
F: McCarthy, Hipwood, Gunstan
Foll: Omac, Dunks, Neale
Bench: Ashcroft, Zorko, McKenna, Dev
Sub: Wilmot

Key thoughts
  • Not sure about the Rayner down back thing. But worth leaving him there until Gardiner gets his body right. Perhaps give him some kickouts to get into the game. He looks lost where ever he plays still
  • Wilmot looks completely lost, but is versatile to play forward, back and wing as a sub against tiring opposition.
  • Tunstill looks Miles ahead of the next gen fringe. Pure footy brain that needs more games to be a little better on execution. He was so close to starting sublime attacking plays
  • Dev is a foot soldier who often has no intent and fumbles. But competes well enough if he watches his loopy handballs. Stop gap until Fletcher plays imo
 
Dalions said:
As long as Joyce plays ok tonight, I think he will get a gig in round 1 with Gardiner likely still unavailable.
Click to expand...
Hmm wouldn’t be my choice, especially with Finlayson unlikely to play
Balony_pony16 said:
B: Starc, Andrews, Rayner
HB: Coleman, Payne, Rich
C: Tunstill, Luggage, Berry
HF: CC, Daniher, Bailey
F: McCarthy, Hipwood, Gunstan
Foll: Omac, Dunks, Neale
Bench: Ashcroft, Zorko, McKenna, Dev
Sub: Wilmot

Key thoughts
  • Not sure about the Rayner down back thing. But worth leaving him there until Gardiner gets his body right. Perhaps give him some kickouts to get into the game. He looks lost where ever he plays still
  • Wilmot looks completely lost, but is versatile to play forward, back and wing as a sub against tiring opposition.
  • Tunstill looks Miles ahead of the next gen fringe. Pure footy brain that needs more games to be a little better on execution. He was so close to starting sublime attacking plays
  • Dev is a foot soldier who often has no intent and fumbles. But competes well enough if he watches his loopy handballs. Stop gap until Fletcher plays imo
Click to expand...
PRetty much what the side will look like.

I would have a big question mark next to Berry. Without knowing what was wrong, he looked very rusty v swans then didn't play. He is not crucial so i'd be letting him play 2s in round 1.

It does make Wing tricky. No Ah Chee, possibly no Berry. I thought Wilmot did some nice things but he didn't have much of it. Perhaps because he was moved around a bit? With no Berry i'd have one of Wilmot or McKenna on the wing and use their pace as a weapon.

So main wings for round 1 as Wilmot OR McKenna / Robertson / Tunstill. Berry can come in for the weakest link once fit.

Incidentally that is the most i have ever seen Daniher run and chase. Gunston set a good example too, never gives up or blows up if there is a poor kick, just sees what pressure he can put on.
 
twhowler said:
It does make Wing tricky. No Ah Chee, possibly no Berry. I thought Wilmot did some nice things but he didn't have much of it. Perhaps because he was moved around a bit? With no Berry i'd have one of Wilmot or McKenna on the wing and use their pace as a weapon.
Click to expand...

Wing is a tricky spot to play. Depending on the game, you can get a heap of it. Others, the ball seems to ping back and froth over your head. Wouldn't read too much into possession counts - the selectors will have a good idea who's playing the role right.
 
M Malice said:
The coaches play their favourites narrative is a falsehood, although I do think they give credits to proven players who have a down period, which is fair enough IMO. If a newbie has 2-3 down games on the trot they are much more likely to be dropped than a 150+ game player.
Click to expand...
I disagree. Michael Voss had had a massive thing for Sam Sheldon and gifted him games that his form did not warrant.

I do think that coaches play favourites, but it is a bit different to straight out nepotism. Rather, often coaches work out a game plan or have a structure that they believe to be the best available and they stick with it. When that is found wanting or fails, on many occasions coaches will persist out of hubris or a belief that the plan or player will come good. As observers outside this thought and selection process, we supporters are often left perplexed and angry that a player keeps getting selected, especially if we are losing. Some coaches are quicker to change their thinking than others, but on the whole, all coaches are alpha types and they will stick with a decision on structure, game plan and personnel because they don’t want to admit they were wrong. Just look at press conferences after games where losing coaches, who have just seen their team get clearly beaten, will latch on to a statistic or factoid to look for something to reinforce their planning and avoid conceding they got it wrong. For example, your team is ten goals down at half time and loses by eight goals and the coach says, “we outscored them in the second half” as if to imply that if there were 6 “quarters” in a game, we would have won and their planning and team selection would have been vindicated. Better stick with the same players in the same positions attempting to do the same thing next week then. Cue presser, “Well we lost again, but if you look at the numbers, we were plus 10 on contested possessions and plus 8 on back half clearances.” Cue supporters pulling hair out and fast forward a week to coach selecting a player who had 6 disposals and did next to nothing for another game because he is part of the coaches Magical Thinking.

Coaches are human and they don’t like to admit they are wrong with team selection and the players they regularly select over others that many of us believe deserve a game. The proof of this is the fact that you seldom if ever hear a coach say that they got team a selection wrong.
 
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3KZ is Football said:
I disagree. Michael Voss had had a massive thing for Sam Sheldon and gifted him games that his form did not warrant.

I do think that coaches play favourites, but it is a bit different to straight out nepotism. Rather, often coaches work out a game plan or have a structure that they believe to be the best available and they stick with it. When that is found wanting or fails, on many occasions coaches will persist out of hubris or a belief that the plan or player will come good. As observers outside this thought and selection process, we supporters are often left perplexed and angry that a player keeps getting selected, especially if we are losing. Some coaches are quicker to change their thinking than others, but on the whole, all coaches are alpha types and they will stick with a decision on structure, game plan and personnel because they don’t want to admit they were wrong. Just look at press conferences after games where losing coaches, who have just seen their team get clearly beaten, will latch on to a statistic or factoid to look for something to reinforce their planning and avoid conceding they got it wrong. For example, your team is ten goals down at half time and loses by eight goals and the coach says, “we outscored them in the second half” as if to imply that if there were 6 “quarters” in a game, we would have won and their planning and team selection would have been vindicated. Better stick with the same players in the same positions attempting to do the same thing next week then. Cue presser, “Well we lost again, but if you look at the numbers, we were plus 10 on contested possessions and plus 8 on back half clearances.” Cue supporters pulling hair out and fast forward a week to coach selecting a player who had 6 disposals and did next to nothing for another game because he is part of the coaches Magical Thinking.

Coaches are human and they don’t like to admit they are wrong with team selection and the players they regularly select over others that many of us believe deserve a game. The proof of this is the fact that you seldom if ever hear a coach say that they got team a selection wrong.
Click to expand...
This is described as the sunken cost fallacy. You keep following a path far beyond a reasonable time. It happens commonly.

Since the meta analysis of lockdowns available at
Studies in Applied Economics A literature and meta analysis of the effects of Lockdowns on Covid 19 Mortality and the recently released Cochrane review of physical strategies (masks and handwashing) no one following data can say anything we did for covid was worth it.

Now the studies were always available but many refused to acknowledge them.

They were 10 goals down at half time. Some of this was the sunken cost fallacy at work.

We all suffer from the sunken cost fallacy. I always though Dan Culter could play but he can't get a spot at Essendon any more!
 
DERRINALPHIL said:
This is described as the sunken cost fallacy. You keep following a path far beyond a reasonable time. It happens commonly.

Since the meta analysis of lockdowns available at
Studies in Applied Economics A literature and meta analysis of the effects of Lockdowns on Covid 19 Mortality and the recently released Cochrane review of physical strategies (masks and handwashing) no one following data can say anything we did for covid was worth it.

Now the studies were always available but many refused to acknowledge them.

They were 10 goals down at half time. Some of this was the sunken cost fallacy at work.

We all suffer from the sunken cost fallacy. I always though Dan Culter could play but he can't get a spot at Essendon any more!
Click to expand...
That's very true Phil.

You see it in business all the time. So much effort, planning and emotional buy in has been put into a strategy that when it's not working CEO's fall back on the litany of excuses available and ultimately the old chestnut , give up never got anywhere , find a few examples of turnaround stories and ignore the 90% of cases where the strategy was wrong and things got worse.

Don't see coaches would be all that different except when losses start mounting up the pressure from supporters and officials can become unbearable to the point where change is forced upon you. Of course the key is go in with different plans and a few players in mind so that you can adapt quickly when something's not working.

But yeah, when you put a lot of time and effort into something you're often invested in it and it's hard to let it go.
 

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martinson said:
That's very true Phil.

You see it in business all the time. So much effort, planning and emotional buy in has been put into a strategy that when it's not working CEO's fall back on the litany of excuses available and ultimately the old chestnut , give up never got anywhere , find a few examples of turnaround stories and ignore the 90% of cases where the strategy was wrong and things got worse.

Don't see coaches would be all that different except when losses start mounting up the pressure from supporters and officials can become unbearable to the point where change is forced upon you. Of course the key is go in with different plans and a few players in mind so that you can adapt quickly when something's not working.

But yeah, when you put a lot of time and effort into something you're often invested in it and it's hard to let it go.
Click to expand...
We have achieved consensus! KissKiss DERRINALPHIL martinson and 3KZ is Football agree. Coaches might not play ‘favourites’ with players, but they play ‘favourites’ with their ideas about team selection and often preference one idea, even when it is not working, for weeks on end, over other available selection options.

This phenomenon is also present in every pre-match, game and post match thread ever published on our board, because supporters are not immune.

PS I think with injuries to Gardiner and possibly Payne, Lester is a LOCK for Round 1 against Port Adelaide.
 
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Rd 1 - Easily the shortest line up I've ever gone with as our best 22 in years:

B: Starcevich, Andrews, Rayner
HB: Coleman, Payne, Rich
C: Prior, McCluggage, Berry
HF: Daniher, Bailey, Hipwood
F: McCarthy, Gunston, Charlie Cameron
Foll: Big O, Dunkley, Neale
Bench: Ashcroft, Zorko, Wilmot, Dev
Sub: McKenna

I've probably forgotten someone obvious, and if Lester had had a full pre-season I'd be inclined to play him in the team instead of either Wilmot or Prior for additional height down back. It leaves either Starce or Rayner to play on Georgiades which given his current lack of form I'm not too concerned by.

I am encouraged by our team defence across two pre-season games and am hoping we'd be able to get away with only 2 key defenders until Dizzy is fit with the possibility of Gunston swinging back behind the ball if we have to.

Som real tough calls on who to leave out - Tunstill has impressed me, JL has obviously been in the team for 4 years and Fort doesn't do much wrong although I still don't think he quite offers as much in the contest as Big O.
 
Tom14 said:
Rd 1 - Easily the shortest line up I've ever gone with as our best 22 in years:

B: Starcevich, Andrews, Rayner
HB: Coleman, Payne, Rich
C: Prior, McCluggage, Berry
HF: Daniher, Bailey, Hipwood
F: McCarthy, Gunston, Charlie Cameron
Foll: Big O, Dunkley, Neale
Bench: Ashcroft, Zorko, Wilmot, Dev
Sub: McKenna

I've probably forgotten someone obvious, and if Lester had had a full pre-season I'd be inclined to play him in the team instead of either Wilmot or Prior for additional height down back. It leaves either Starce or Rayner to play on Georgiades which given his current lack of form I'm not too concerned by.

I am encouraged by our team defence across two pre-season games and am hoping we'd be able to get away with only 2 key defenders until Dizzy is fit with the possibility of Gunston swinging back behind the ball if we have to.

Som real tough calls on who to leave out - Tunstill has impressed me, JL has obviously been in the team for 4 years and Fort doesn't do much wrong although I still don't think he quite offers as much in the contest as Big O.
Click to expand...
Thats pretty close to what it is likely to be.

If both or either of Zorko and Berry don't make R1 then a few selection headaches are avoided.
Let's hope they have a selection headache.
 
3KZ is Football said:
I disagree. Michael Voss had had a massive thing for Sam Sheldon and gifted him games that his form did not warrant.

I do think that coaches play favourites, but it is a bit different to straight out nepotism. Rather, often coaches work out a game plan or have a structure that they believe to be the best available and they stick with it. When that is found wanting or fails, on many occasions coaches will persist out of hubris or a belief that the plan or player will come good. As observers outside this thought and selection process, we supporters are often left perplexed and angry that a player keeps getting selected, especially if we are losing. Some coaches are quicker to change their thinking than others, but on the whole, all coaches are alpha types and they will stick with a decision on structure, game plan and personnel because they don’t want to admit they were wrong. Just look at press conferences after games where losing coaches, who have just seen their team get clearly beaten, will latch on to a statistic or factoid to look for something to reinforce their planning and avoid conceding they got it wrong. For example, your team is ten goals down at half time and loses by eight goals and the coach says, “we outscored them in the second half” as if to imply that if there were 6 “quarters” in a game, we would have won and their planning and team selection would have been vindicated. Better stick with the same players in the same positions attempting to do the same thing next week then. Cue presser, “Well we lost again, but if you look at the numbers, we were plus 10 on contested possessions and plus 8 on back half clearances.” Cue supporters pulling hair out and fast forward a week to coach selecting a player who had 6 disposals and did next to nothing for another game because he is part of the coaches Magical Thinking.

Coaches are human and they don’t like to admit they are wrong with team selection and the players they regularly select over others that many of us believe deserve a game. The proof of this is the fact that you seldom if ever hear a coach say that they got team a selection wrong.
Click to expand...

He did not.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
Tom14 said:
Rd 1 - Easily the shortest line up I've ever gone with as our best 22 in years:

B: Starcevich, Andrews, Rayner
HB: Coleman, Payne, Rich
C: Prior, McCluggage, Berry
HF: Daniher, Bailey, Hipwood
F: McCarthy, Gunston, Charlie Cameron
Foll: Big O, Dunkley, Neale
Bench: Ashcroft, Zorko, Wilmot, Dev
Sub: McKenna

I've probably forgotten someone obvious, and if Lester had had a full pre-season I'd be inclined to play him in the team instead of either Wilmot or Prior for additional height down back. It leaves either Starce or Rayner to play on Georgiades which given his current lack of form I'm not too concerned by.

I am encouraged by our team defence across two pre-season games and am hoping we'd be able to get away with only 2 key defenders until Dizzy is fit with the possibility of Gunston swinging back behind the ball if we have to.

Som real tough calls on who to leave out - Tunstill has impressed me, JL has obviously been in the team for 4 years and Fort doesn't do much wrong although I still don't think he quite offers as much in the contest as Big O.
Click to expand...
FWIW I think they’ll have Fort as the strategic sub in R1 just in case Port trouble us with their height. He can play any role and do it well.
 
So post weekend seems Payne is okay.

Leaves us with our best 22 being:

17 locks (i counted them just trust me haha)

Gardiner out.

Berry and Zorko fitness tests.

So between 3-5 spots (plus a sub) up for grabs out of:

Robertson, Prior, McKenna, Tunstill, Fort, Joyce, Answerth, Wilmot.
 

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Nunez said:
Starc Andrews Rayner
Rich Payne Coleman
Robertson McCluggage Berry
Oscar Neale Dunkley
McCarthy Hipwood Bailey
Gunston Daniher Cameron
Int: Wilmot Zorko Ashcroft McKenna
Sub Fort

Feels like I'm missing someone...
Click to expand...

Prior, Tunstill and Ah Chee are the obvious ones, along with Gardiner when fit.
 
mpal6 said:
Prior, Tunstill and Ah Chee are the obvious ones, along with Gardiner when fit.
Click to expand...

Ah Chee and Gardiner are in my best 22, but left them out due to injuries.

If they were fit round one, I'd be dropping two of McKenna, Wilmot or Robertson and playing Cal on a wing, Rayner forward and Dizzy down back.
 
Interesting tidbit from Fish here - Zorko expected to be unavailable for round 1:

BRISBANE

B: Darragh Joyce, Harris Andrews, Brandon Starcevich
HB: Daniel Rich, Jack Payne, Keidean Coleman
C: Darcy Wilmot, Josh Dunkley, Jarrod Berry
HF: Lincoln McCarthy, Eric Hipwood, Zac Bailey
F: Charlie Cameron, Joe Daniher, Jack Gunston
Foll: Oscar McInerney, Lachie Neale, Hugh McCluggage
I/C: Conor McKenna, Deven Robertson, Will Ashcroft, Cam Rayner
EMERG: Noah Answerth, Jarryd Lyons, Jaxon Prior, Darcy Fort

NEW: Will Ashcroft, Josh Dunkley, Jack Gunston, Darragh Joyce, Conor McKenna
UNAVAILABLE: Callum Ah Chee (quad), Darcy Gardiner (foot).

NOTES: The main selection dilemma for the Lions comes in defence, with Marcus Adams (concussion) on the inactive list and Gardiner still not quite right. With Port Adelaide sporting three genuine tall targets, Joyce could be called in, as could Ryan Lester. The real swing player is Rayner, who has trained and played in defence all pre-season, but can still be used in any part of the ground. Former skipper Dayne Zorko is unlikely to overcome his hamstring injury, paving the way for Robertson to get a deserved opportunity. – Michael Whiting
 
McIvor said:
Provided Froggy's fit, I'd have him in the team every day of the week over Joyce. I'm an unabashed Froggy fan tho
Click to expand...
I do love him but I havent heard much from him in the preseason. Always cautious when someone comes in off no warmup games. Has he played yet?
 
Couple of quick ones, trying to understand 22s better

If no Zorko or Berry, is Lyons any chance or do they need more injuries then that? Heard he was clear BOG in the 2nds on the weekend

Why is Answerth emg/on the outer? Thought he wouldve been ahead of guys like Willmot/Prior for wing. Has he just had an ordinary PS?
 

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First 22 in 2023

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