First 23 in 2024

[Mighty Lions]

Just out of interest if Lester and Gardiner aren’t the same same comparison who would it be? Might be wrong but imo those are the three competing for the third tall defender spot.

Just different style footballers. Lester &/or Gardner would not be asked to do a job that Doedee would be asked. They might be competing for the one spot in the back 6 but thats the only thing they would have in common.

 

[p4p1]

You have gone to a lot of effort breaking up the players into different age/abilities etc. Thanks for that.
However, it is very hard to make out the players names in Yellow.
Can i suggest a change to Blue to make it easier to read.
If you click on the "B" bold button first before going to the color icon it will give you a darker color if you wish.
I have changed Zorko and McCarthy to blue in the reply above to show the difference.
A bolded yellow is still a little hard to read and it then clashes a bit with the orange.

View attachment 1878970

I will keep this one in mind next time I do a thread.
I was trying to use the green, yellow, orange and red in the same way we judge the chances of a bush fire.

 

[p4p1]

Just different style footballers. Lester &/or Gardner would not be asked to do a job that Doedee would be asked. They might be competing for the one spot in the back 6 but thats the only thing they would have in common.

I think that is fair to say but they are still competing with each other for the spot. So it does come down to who offers what. I don't know that Gardner's ability to play lockdown better than the other two is enough to have him in the team in front of the other two given what else they do or can offer.

 

[Mighty Lions]

I think that is fair to say but they are still competing with each other for the spot. So it does come down to who offers what. I don't know that Gardner's ability to play lockdown better than the other two is enough to have him in the team in front of the other two given what else they do or can offer.

Agree 100%. There are a lot on here who dont rate Gardner as much but I know the club does hold him in high regard so it will be interesting how the back 6 forms over the early rounds before Doedee becomes available for selection. I would always have a fit Gardner in front of a fit Lester but would probably have a fit Payne over both of those 2.

 

[p4p1]

We made the 2023 GF and have 17 players with under 20 AFL games experience.
On 2023 form two are best 22 being Ashcroft and Fletcher. Only Fletcher available early.
From the PF teams: Pies have 13, Blues 15, Giants 17

Who from our list of players with under 20 games could get a game in the first 6 rounds.

View attachment 1880340
My first thoughts are no to these players:
Joyce, Madden are injury backup. Same for Lane.
Reville & Brain both Cat B rookies so one or both of Ashcroft & Doedee need to go on LTI list.
The three tall draftees in Lloyd, Morris & Zane Z. Will be very hard for young talls to break into a GF team side early.

Brandon Ryan & Henry Smith only a chance if Fagan decides to go back to his preferred 3 tall set up.
Will Fagan trial this?. I will say yes if the AFL decide to increase players to 23 on game day with no substitute.
This would then give Lloyd and Morris a look-in too.

Carter Michael: Bad injury run so hard to judge. Unlikely but the club re-signed him. Intraclub games a better guide.

Kai Lohmann possibly. I am not sure who he replaces though, unless someone form drops off. Kai should have natural improvement.

James Tunstill (M) and Harry Sharp (W/F/M). Natural improvement from them and i see a spot opening up in rounds 1-6.

Reece Torrent pick 64. More hope than anything else. I think we need another midfielder so let's hope he is a surprise packet in the intraclub games. More than likely the midfield spots will come from positional changes to other players. Or players like Bailey & Rayner spend a little more time in the midfield.

Other posters thoughts on who is a chance early from this inexperienced player list.

ZZ is the one I am interested in. Reading his draft profile he sounds like a bit of an athletic freak. I would love to see us give it a trial and see how he goes. His gas tank will be the big question. He is still tall enough to be an effective 2nd/3rd forward or defender. It sounds like there is still a lot for him to work on but with Fletcher, Ashcroft x 2 looking like they may be our midfield future it would be worth considering developing a big bodied midfielder so we don't end up with an undersized midfield as we have had before.

 

[p4p1]

Agree 100%. There are a lot on here who dont rate Gardner as much but I know the club does hold him in high regard so it will be interesting how the back 6 forms over the early rounds before Doedee becomes available for selection. I would always have a fit Gardner in front of a fit Lester but would probably have a fit Payne over both of those 2.

I have been big on Payne for a while. I believed in the 22 season that he had overtaken Gardner and should have been our #2 defender late in that season.
Lester 192 and Gardner 194 are both a good chunk taller than Doedee as well which makes me wonder if he is more in competition with Starce who I believe has the ability to move further up the field.
Could the back 6 end up more like:
Doedee Andrews Gardner/Lester
McKenna Payne Coleman
Motty as the 7th defender.
Starce up playing a wing role.

Maybe we didn't get Doedee in to be a 3rd tall but more towards Starces role? I'm not sure just spit balling here.

 

[Section 5]

Agree 100%. There are a lot on here who dont rate Gardner as much but I know the club does hold him in high regard so it will be interesting how the back 6 forms over the early rounds before Doedee becomes available for selection. I would always have a fit Gardner in front of a fit Lester but would probably have a fit Payne over both of those 2.

Payne over the other two for me also, but they all play a different type of a game.

Payne should be the next selected after Andrews as he is needed for his size, marking ability and speed.
Payne had a great year in 2023. He has only played 50 games so upside could be huge.
Gardiner had a horrible time shaking his injuries in 2023 without actually playing much.
Lucky for us he was ready to step in for the PF & GF where he played well.

Lester & Gardiner very different type of players but in my opinion find they are fighting for the same spot along with Doedee.
Gardiner more versatile in defense as he can take a 2nd or 3rd tall.
Lester probably played better than Gardiner against the Blues in the PF, but they had different roles.
However, if i had to select only one v the Blues rematch in the opening round of 2024, i would opt for Gardiner.
Toss of the coin though.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Payne over the other two for me also, but they all play a different type of a game.

Payne should be the next selected after Andrews as he is needed for his size, marking ability and speed.
Payne had a great year in 2023. He has only played 50 games so upside could be huge.
Gardiner had a horrible time shaking his injuries in 2023 without actually playing much.
Lucky for us he was ready to step in for the PF & GF where he played well.

Lester & Gardiner very different type of players but in my opinion find they are fighting for the same spot along with Doedee.
Gardiner more versatile in defense as he can take a 2nd or 3rd tall.
Lester probably played better than Gardiner against the Blues in the PF, but they had different roles.
However, if i had to select only one v the Blues rematch in the opening round of 2024, i would opt for Gardiner.
Toss of the coin though.

The only downside i have with Payne is that he doesn't cope playing with a niggle very well. More than 1/2 our list play with niggles every week.....its something they all need to fight through. Hopefully he manages that side of his game a bit as he matures because we all see the potential in him to be a real dominating key position player.

 

[Section 5]

I have been big on Payne for a while. I believed in the 22 season that he had overtaken Gardner and should have been our #2 defender late in that season.
Lester 192 and Gardner 194 are both a good chunk taller than Doedee as well which makes me wonder if he is more in competition with Starce who I believe has the ability to move further up the field.
Could the back 6 end up more like:
Doedee Andrews Gardner/Lester
McKenna Payne Coleman
Motty as the 7th defender.
Starce up playing a wing role.

Maybe we didn't get Doedee in to be a 3rd tall but more towards Starces role? I'm not sure just spit balling here.

Doedees role at the Crows did not have him as a lockdown defender.
I doubt we bring him to the Lions and change his role.
I think Starch will keep the lockdown defender role unless someone else overtakes him for that position.

 

[On the quiet]

The only downside i have with Payne is that he doesn't cope playing with a niggle very well. More than 1/2 our list play with niggles every week.....its something they all need to fight through. Hopefully he manages that side of his game a bit as he matures because we all see the potential in him to be a real dominating key position player.

Payne over the other two for me also, but they all play a different type of a game.

Payne should be the next selected after Andrews as he is needed for his size, marking ability and speed.
Payne had a great year in 2023. He has only played 50 games so upside could be huge.
Gardiner had a horrible time shaking his injuries in 2023 without actually playing much.
Lucky for us he was ready to step in for the PF & GF where he played well.

Lester & Gardiner very different type of players but in my opinion find they are fighting for the same spot along with Doedee.
Gardiner more versatile in defense as he can take a 2nd or 3rd tall.
Lester probably played better than Gardiner against the Blues in the PF, but they had different roles.
However, if i had to select only one v the Blues rematch in the opening round of 2024, i would opt for Gardiner.
Toss of the coin though.

I would not be surprised if Lester or Gardiner are trialed as a forward option during the preseason. We know Fages likes the three tall options (although I prefer Cam doing the role). We sign Doedee on good coin for 3 or 4 years and IF fit he is playing come the second half of the season.
Payne had a very good first two thirds to the year, and then IIRC injured his ankle at the GABBA maybe round 14/15 and his form dropped off. I suspect he was playing injured those last 7 or 8 games and then what ever he did in the semi against Port, that finished him off for the year. IF he is fit he is picked for round1, but I think, yet again, he will have another interrupted preseason.

I have been keen on Wilmot since he played in the finals in 2022, born late December and had a very solid first full year playing AFL, IMO he only gets better along with Fletcher, Dev and Payne.

 

[KissKiss]

Payne over the other two for me also, but they all play a different type of a game.

Payne should be the next selected after Andrews as he is needed for his size, marking ability and speed.
Payne had a great year in 2023. He has only played 50 games so upside could be huge.
Gardiner had a horrible time shaking his injuries in 2023 without actually playing much.
Lucky for us he was ready to step in for the PF & GF where he played well.

Lester & Gardiner very different type of players but in my opinion find they are fighting for the same spot along with Doedee.
Gardiner more versatile in defense as he can take a 2nd or 3rd tall.
Lester probably played better than Gardiner against the Blues in the PF, but they had different roles.
However, if i had to select only one v the Blues rematch in the opening round of 2024, i would opt for Gardiner.
Toss of the coin though.

I very much agree with this. Personally think we should take notice of the opposition week to week and consider what type of forwards they have, rather than a locked in "best back 6/7". Being a bit more flexible with the team week to week could be something that takes us the next level.

*Noting it can be tougher to get guys who buy in to being flexible with their spots - takes special man management from the coaches. Although of all the players on our list I think Lester is one of the best clubmen for this level of acceptance

 

[p4p1]

Doedees role at the Crows did not have him as a lockdown defender.
I doubt we bring him to the Lions and change his role.
I think Starch will keep the lockdown defender role unless someone else overtakes him for that position.

I believe he has been noted for his one on one defensive ability.
Im just wondering of we may do something different than expect with a new recruit. We have 3 rebounding HBF’s and while I am probably overestimating the importance 5-7cm in height because there is a lot of variables in how tall someone can play, having a 187cm 3rd tall defender seems to be the opposite way the game is trending.

 

[Section 5]

I believe he has been noted for his one on one defensive ability.
Im just wondering of we may do something different than expect with a new recruit. We have 3 rebounding HBF’s and while I am probably overestimating the importance 5-7cm in height because there is a lot of variables in how tall someone can play, having a 187cm 3rd tall defender seems to be the opposite way the game is trending.

We are lucky that we have quite a few very good defenders both small and tallish.
Doedee listed on footywire as 190cm and 90kg.
Thats only 2cm shorter than Gardiner and Lester both listed as 192cm so i think his height is fine for a 3rd tall.

It would be good if one of the smalls get another role. The problem is they are very good at what they do now.

 

[p4p1]

We are lucky that we have quite a few very good defenders both small and tallish.
Doedee listed on footywire as 190cm and 90kg.
Thats only 2cm shorter than Gardiner and Lester both listed as 192cm so i think his height is fine for a 3rd tall.

It would be good if one of the smalls get another role. The problem is they are very good at what they do now.

I found Gardiner listed as 194 and Lester listed at 192, Doedee at 187. As you said, if he is 190 and the other 2 are 192, then it makes a bit more sense.
I should stop putting faith in any of these height listings tbh. Fyfe is listed as 190, he has said he is 195, I'm more inclined to believe him over the internet.

 

[KissKiss]

Also some play taller than they are, and others play shorter

 

[p4p1]

I very much agree with this. Personally think we should take notice of the opposition week to week and consider what type of forwards they have, rather than a locked in "best back 6/7". Being a bit more flexible with the team week to week could be something that takes us the next level.

*Noting it can be tougher to get guys who buy in to being flexible with their spots - takes special man management from the coaches. Although of all the players on our list I think Lester is one of the best clubmen for this level of acceptance

I think that is fair, HBF and HFF are often positions a young but really promising future mid plays. Of our current HBFs Motty makes the most sense to move further up the ground. I don't see McKenna doing so, and Colemans boot is too great of a weapon coming out of the backline.
Starce is the other one that already has the tools do it IMO, but I do feel like if it hasn't happened yet then it likely isn't going to happen. Probably a victim of being too good at the job he was given. No one in the team can replicate his results in the role while his impact on a wing or in the midfield could be replicated by others on the list.

 

[p4p1]

Also some play taller than they are, and others play shorter

Vertical leap is an obvious reason but I had a thought about arm length being an important factor that is probably overlooked. Harris Andrews is a great example, he is listed as 202cm which is pretty bloody tall but I strongly suspect is reach is in the realm somewhere of 7ft. If he lined up on someone who was 200cm it isn't just the 2cm the player needs to overcome to out mark him but another 6 or so cm in arm length as well.

 

[Berrygood]

I very much agree with this. Personally think we should take notice of the opposition week to week and consider what type of forwards they have, rather than a locked in "best back 6/7". Being a bit more flexible with the team week to week could be something that takes us the next level.

*Noting it can be tougher to get guys who buy in to being flexible with their spots - takes special man management from the coaches. Although of all the players on our list I think Lester is one of the best clubmen for this level of acceptance

I like what you're thinking. There could be teams with 3 big tall fwds where playing Gardiner as 3rd tall defender could be to advantage. Other horses for courses selections might also work.

But I also think the chopping and changing, in one week out the next, won't help cohesion. It won't help a player that needs a lot of game time to gain and hold form. Someone like Gardiner needs a run of games to hit form and the more he plays the better he is. Like race horses, some players are good first up, some need constant racing.

Other than Lester, it's an 8 man defensive group that could be together for another 4 or 5 years. Andrews, Payne, Gardiner, Doedee, Starce, McKenna, Kiddy, Wilmot. Even our depth is young and competent. Prior, Madden, Answerth, Joyce. With Michael, Brain and ZZ developing. Draft another good Tall in a year or 2 and I think we're ideally situated rolling forward.

 

[Section 5]

I found Gardiner listed as 194 and Lester listed at 192, Doedee at 187. As you said, if he is 190 and the other 2 are 192, then it makes a bit more sense.
I should stop putting faith in any of these height listings tbh. Fyfe is listed as 190, he has said he is 195, I'm more inclined to believe him over the internet.

The AFL should require the clubs to update them each year but most likely it is not a requirement. I have no idea though.

I usually get a lot of my stuff from footywire as i find it easier to find stuff.
Just rechecked footywire and crossed checked with Lions and Dockers sites.
I think all the Club sites are somehow tied into the AFL.

Footywire, Dockers & Lions sites all have the same for these players.

Fyfe ..... 191cm & 94kg.
Doedee.. 190cm & 90kg
Gardiner 192cm & 91kg
Lester.... 192cm & 84kg (Lester looks heavier than that to me but who would know)

 

[Cyclops]

May I post in you forum?

JFC decent list. No obvious weaknesses, made the FS pay off and addressed the medium defender question ( not really a weakness, Starcs and Coleman both extremely competent, but now...).

No perfect lists with the cap, but good culture and success helps with retention. Sides like GWS and Carlton seem to have more potential but the balance and development are lacking. Brisbane are a lot of things but balanced is maybe the foremost thing to my mind.

I believe you have the hardest draw in 24, but you're good enough and you'll go be fully tested before crunch time (we had the hardest draw in 23, but with so many games at the G that's softened).

#VICBIAS will see some Melbourne clubs contest (us or Melbourne maybe?) but if list composition matters (and I think it really does) you and Port look beautifully poised, with Giants lurking.

 

[mpal6]

I like what you're thinking. There could be teams with 3 big tall fwds where playing Gardiner as 3rd tall defender could be to advantage. Other horses for courses selections might also work.

But I also think the chopping and changing, in one week out the next, won't help cohesion. It won't help a player that needs a lot of game time to gain and hold form. Someone like Gardiner needs a run of games to hit form and the more he plays the better he is. Like race horses, some players are good first up, some need constant racing.

Other than Lester, it's an 8 man defensive group that could be together for another 4 or 5 years. Andrews, Payne, Gardiner, Doedee, Starce, McKenna, Kiddy, Wilmot. Even our depth is young and competent. Prior, Madden, Answerth, Joyce. With Michael, Brain and ZZ developing. Draft another good Tall in a year or 2 and I think we're ideally situated rolling forward.

I'm also thinking there is a good opportunity to explore playing a defensive 3rd tall especially against top teams.

Sending Gardiner to say Moore or Aliir or May and wrestle with them takes out an important weapon in their defense. I think we could do more in this area in 2024, around shutting down or limiting opposition playmakers.

Also, If we have an issue in our defense during the game and a tall goes down, Gardiner can be switched back. I think there is lot of benefits to explore here.

 

[Nunez]

I'm also thinking there is a good opportunity to explore playing a defensive 3rd tall especially against top teams.

Sending Gardiner to say Moore or Aliir or May and wrestle with them takes out an important weapon in their defense. I think we could do more in this area in 2024, around shutting down or limiting opposition playmakers.

Also, If we have an issue in our defense during the game and a tall goes down, Gardiner can be switched back. I think there is lot of benefits to explore here.

If we did that (not saying I think we should mind you), Payne would be my choice. Has the most potential up forward and could play against any tall.

 

[BuntonRules]

If we did that (not saying I think we should mind you), Payne would be my choice. Has the most potential up forward and could play against any tall.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

[martinson]

Doedee will be an automatic in when he's fit . He does everything Froggy or Gardiner can do with the addition of hurting the opposition the other way.

Payne was into AA calculations when he was fit ,but once he cops an injury it really affects his mindset and he loses his confidence and aggression . He really does have it all to be a top class player ,I'm sure we're working on the mental side of his game.

We're really jacked for hybrid type defenders now. I'm not overkeen on moving anyone with size around. Payne and Andrews are the 2 pillars and you build the rest around that.

 

[On the quiet]

Doedee will be an automatic in when he's fit . He does everything Froggy or Gardiner can do with the addition of hurting the opposition the other way.

Payne was into AA calculations when he was fit ,but once he cops an injury it really affects his mindset and he loses his confidence and aggression . He really does have it all to be a top class player ,I'm sure we're working on the mental side of his game.

We're really jacked for hybrid type defenders now. I'm not overkeen on moving anyone with size around. Payne and Andrews are the 2 pillars and you build the rest around that.

Agree. That is why I see possibly Lester (who has played forward) and or Gardiner (defensive forward) having a run up forward during some match sims/trials, as Fages does like the 3 tall forward option. Third tall spot is up for grabs. I have stated many times I think Cam is dangerous in the role as the third tall, but seems the coaches think otherwise.

Also mentioned in early 2022, when I thought Payne was ready, about having a core back of 8 or so and depending on opposition matchups there could be some selection rotations, but IMO players (whilst they state they will do what is right for the team, don't like it), and suspect coaches are not too keen.

When Doedee is fit for the second half of the season he is a lock, so my back 7;
Andrews, Payne, Doedee, Wilmot, Starc, Kiddy, Mckenna