First premiership from tanking?

[Guff]

Since Collingwood tanked to get Pendelbury and Thomas, will this be the first flag won by tanking?

 

[Aphrodite]

Has the GF been played yet

 

[zeeCFC]

Just quietly, we should lay low in tanking discussions

 

[parrot]

Since Collingwood tanked to get Pendelbury and Thomas, will this be the first flag won by tanking?

Would be the 2nd. The Hawks tanked for 3 years, and did it so bad the AFL had to change the PP rules. The Pies have also cheated the salary cap a few times. Saints tanked for 2-3 years early in the decade... so long ago not sure if that counts now.

 

[40yearBLUE]

There would be hundreds of games where a convenient loss by a favorite meant a dangerous rival was disadvantaged by it and it was going on long before the draft was invented and the word tanking entered our footy vocab.

 

[blue healer]

There would be hundreds of games where a convenient loss by a favorite meant a dangerous rival was disadvantaged by it and it was going on long before the draft was invented and the word tanking entered our footy vocab.

2001 Essendon/Richmond rings a bell here

 

[Koutafidamedis]

Just quietly, we should lay low in tanking discussions

This.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Just quietly, we should lay low in tanking discussions

Why? Tanking only comes into effect after a club realizes that despite trying they have lost far too many games to make any difference that year and all that is left is to salvage the best going forward, OR they have won enough games that a loss does not matter to them but effects a competitor for ladder position.

Why, if the rules reward and allow for such a thing as tanking and it is not against the rules to lose, do we have to feel embarrassed by using the rules to our advantage? Freo lost to the Hawks in Tassie by 15 goals, did they tank? They are now being praised for their "list management" but isnt leaving your best team at home resulting in a massive loss the same thing as tanking? Apparently not, so losing one game to ensure the outcome you desire seems acceptable but not more? So where exactly is that line? 3 games? 5 games? Reminds me of the Churchill quote, "we have established what you are and are just now haggling over the price". If Freo's tactics are deemed not only acceptable but commendable then that is exactly what we are doing here; haggling over the price.

We have not cheated, it is not cheating unless you break the rules and we did not. So why would we be shying away from it? What annoys me is not that we participated in it (Kruezer cup anyone?) but that we have to pretend we did not.

 

[agro]

Would be the 2nd. The Hawks tanked for 3 years, and did it so bad the AFL had to change the PP rules. The Pies have also cheated the salary cap a few times. Saints tanked for 2-3 years early in the decade... so long ago not sure if that counts now.

Which flowered us very badly back in the Draft of 2006 where we SHOULD have had Picks 1, 3 & 19 not Picks 1 17 & 19.

This was in effect a retrospective Draft Penalty laid on us by the Demetrispew and the AFL Commission.

We were clearly had the worst list and worst performing team in the AFL Competition in seasons 2005 and 2006 and for the AFL to change the criteria for awarding a Priority Pick and was a disgrace and was engineered by the cheat and rip-off merchant Ron Evans and his toady sidekick Demetrispew to ensure Carlton did not get another High First Round Pick.

This burns me up more than the penalties we got on Black Friday November 2002.

 

[inyourcool]

Which flowered us very badly back in the Draft of 2006 where we SHOULD have had Picks 1, 3 & 19 not Picks 1 17 & 19.

This was in effect a retrospective Draft Penalty laid on us by the Demetrispew and the AFL Commission.

We were clearly had the worst list and worst performing team in the AFL Competition in seasons 2005 and 2006 and for the AFL to change the criteria for awarding a Priority Pick and was a disgrace and was engineered by the cheat and rip-off merchant Ron Evans and his toady sidekick Demetrispew to ensure Carlton did not get another High First Round Pick.

This burns me up more than the penalties we got on Black Friday November 2002.

Oh agro, why did you have to bring that up! I am still livid!!!

It was the last dagger for those slimy sumbags to stick into the Blues following Black Friday.

As at the end of 2006, we had accumulated 32 premiership points which would otherwise qualify us for the early priority pick but because we had accumulated 18 points in 2005, a year that the rules did not even exist, we were unable to obtain that pick.

And ultimately, that cost us one of Gumbleton, Hansen, Leuenberger, Boak, Selwood.

And just a small correction, we would've had picks 1,2 & 19 as the red & black scum would've still received their PP at the end of the first round, not at the start like we should've

 

[Bluebear]

Collingwood won't win the flag. You can see the anxiety building. Yes, they smashed the Dogs.....but lets face it, the Dogs were terrible and are "pretenders" and not "contenders".

A prelim vs the Cats will sort the Pies out.

And BTW, apparently tanking didn't happen this year because of no PP.

Could have fooled me. Tigers and Dons knew that 2 positions on the ladder was 4 in the draft...........headed south at a rate of knotts once finals was off the radar.

 

[parrot]

Every team had "cheated" the cap one time or another.
We got caught out badly and got our rightful justice, but it could just as easily have been one of many other clubs.

I'll also bet all the other NRL clubs spent some "after hours" time clearing out their secondary filing cabinets when The Storm got caught out.

Disagree on the "justice" point. It's not Justice to penalize one team to an extreme extent, and then hand out relatively minor penalties for several repeat offenders. Some obvious salary cap cheating wasn't even penalized by the AFL. The AFL aren't a court of law. They are a private company. Their fines have nothing to do with justice. We should have taken them to court, and we were actually about to do that. It was politically motivated all along i.e. the grubby little Demetriou to AFL CEO / AFL money to Collin's + Docklands deal. The details will all be revealed at some point. We might see some true Justice for the participants.

 

[parrot]

The justice served out is either too much or not enough, but that usually depends on whether you were the victim or the perpetrator...

Think you miss the point. You're talking like it's a court ruling. It's not. The AFL is just a private company handing out an arbitrary fine. It's not justice. There's no court of law involved. In fact it would not standup in a court because it was grossly inequitable and obviously politically motivated. There were conflicts of interest all over the place. We were going to take them to court but "surprise surprise" the legal action was dropped once Collins took over. I wonder why? lol. It'll all become public at some point, and you'll see just what went on. It was grubby.

 

[jackn]

Since Collingwood tanked to get Pendelbury and Thomas, will this be the first flag won by tanking?

No. Having Thomas does not add much to their team. Hawthorn's priority pick had a much bigger influence on them winning the flag than Thomas ever will. Collingwood tanked but it won't win them the flag. It's what they've done with their lower draft picks that will do that for them unfortunately.

 

[Kreuzerlenko]

I'm so sick of the tanking talk. The AFL put the system in place and more power to the teams that wish to exploit it, if they wanna get rid of all the 'tanking' talk then change the system..simple as that. Theres always going to be teams that struggle and finish at the bottom of the ladder, are they always tanking???

 

[40yearBLUE]

I'm so sick of the tanking talk. The AFL put the system in place and more power to the teams that wish to exploit it, if they wanna get rid of all the 'tanking' talk then change the system..simple as that. Theres always going to be teams that struggle and finish at the bottom of the ladder, are they always tanking???

Well put. I like the NBA (I think) model where each team gets a number of lotto balls according to where they finish put into a barrel, so 16th gets 16 balls, 15th 15 and so on and then a lotto draw takes place to create the draft order. So the odds of getting first pick is 16 (or 17 from next year and 18 the year after) times that of the premier but there would still be a chance that the premier could get first pick. Or perhaps you restrict the lotto draw to the non finalist and then after that the ladder position reverts. Either way, it stops tanking to a degree in that losing does not guarantee anything but extra odds in the draw. It also adds some excitement and randomness to the system instead of the obvious and often slanted manipulation of the system.

 

[agro]

The AFL removed the "Form Four" system of signing up recruits 25 years ago to stop the richer clubs from signing up all the best players - Carlton used up their last Form Fours signing up Kernahan, Bradley, Motley, Dorotich and I believe Mark Naley may have been the last player signed to the club by this method.

For better or worse the AFL/VFL introduced the Draft as the way to even up the competition - you might not agree with it but its the system we have and the only way you can get players on your list (other than for trading) or when the AFL randomly change the rules like when they introduce new clubs.

AFL dont want you breaching the Salary Cap and they dont want you tampering with the Draft - but flower me if you have no chance of finishing in the Top 8 come seasons end then arranging the balance of your season to finish lower on the ladder to get the best draft picks you can is not cheating its not tanking its USING THE SYSTEM that the AFL put in place. The AFL cant have it both ways if they dont want teams to arrange their seasons accordingly then piss the draft off and give us the "Form Four" system again.

I cant agree with the NBA system of a Draft Lottery - because it severely disadvantages clubs with shit lists - for example if Carlton had been subject to a Draft Lottery in 2005 and we ended up with a pick towards the end of the first round I think we would have headed to AFL House with pitch forks and lighted torches as would any other team with a manifestly shit list.

I cannot agree with the NBA Draft Lottery system - because in the NBA a draft pick has a manifestly different value to an AFL Draft Pick. In the NBA a Draft pick is worth 20% of your starting 5 and can have a major impact on your list - in AFL a Draft Pick is worth only 5.5% of your first 18 so you dont want to be diluting it even further with the potential of lower draft pick in a Lottery.

Richmond, West Coast, Essendon would be bleeding over these next two seasons whilst GC and GWS rape and pillage the next two drafts after the AFL's random rule changing.

And as I was bleeding in 2006 when the AFL retrospectively changed the Priority Pick Criteria and reamed us wrotten by allocating a Priority Pick to us at the end of the first round instead of at the beginning - funny that the AFL could retrospectively change the National Draft Order on Black Friday November 2002 to completely ream us but couldnt do the same to restore some sort of equity by restoring our access to a Priority Pick before the First Round of the 2006 National Draft.

 

[40yearBLUE]

The AFL removed the "Form Four" system of signing up recruits 25 years ago to stop the richer clubs from signing up all the best players - Carlton used up their last Form Fours signing up Kernahan, Bradley, Motley, Dorotich and I believe Mark Naley may have been the last player signed to the club by this method.

For better or worse the AFL/VFL introduced the Draft as the way to even up the competition - you might not agree with it but its the system we have and the only way you can get players on your list (other than for trading) or when the AFL randomly change the rules like when they introduce new clubs.

AFL dont want you breaching the Salary Cap and they dont want you tampering with the Draft - but flower me if you have no chance of finishing in the Top 8 come seasons end then arranging the balance of your season to finish lower on the ladder to get the best draft picks you can is not cheating its not tanking its USING THE SYSTEM that the AFL put in place. The AFL cant have it both ways if they dont want teams to arrange their seasons accordingly then piss the draft off and give us the "Form Four" system again.

I cant agree with the NBA system of a Draft Lottery - because it severely disadvantages clubs with shit lists - for example if Carlton had been subject to a Draft Lottery in 2005 and we ended up with a pick towards the end of the first round I think we would have headed to AFL House with pitch forks and lighted torches as would any other team with a manifestly shit list.

I cannot agree with the NBA Draft Lottery system - because in the NBA a draft pick has a manifestly different value to an AFL Draft Pick. In the NBA a Draft pick is worth 20% of your starting 5 and can have a major impact on your list - in AFL a Draft Pick is worth only 5.5% of your first 18 so you dont want to be diluting it even further with the potential of lower draft pick in a Lottery.

Richmond, West Coast, Essendon would be bleeding over these next two seasons whilst GC and GWS rape and pillage the next two drafts after the AFL's random rule changing.

And as I was bleeding in 2006 when the AFL retrospectively changed the Priority Pick Criteria and reamed us wrotten by allocating a Priority Pick to us at the end of the first round instead of at the beginning - funny that the AFL could retrospectively change the National Draft Order on Black Friday November 2002 to completely ream us but couldnt do the same to restore some sort of equity by restoring our access to a Priority Pick before the First Round of the 2006 National Draft.

There are 2 flaws in logic in your dislike of the NBA lottery system.

First, if a player is worth 20% of your starting line up the following season and you have a bad current list (ergo you just finished the season on the least number of wins) then you need that 20% all the more because it can transform your losing season this year to a winning one next year so can least afford to be disadvantaged by bad luck of a lottery, yet the system works well in the NBA. This is simplistic of course because we all know that just because a player is a larger percentage of the on court line up in basketball because they have less players on the court than AFL does not make each player on the list statistically (in percentage terms) more valuable as a result, it just does not work that way.

Often a first round draft pick is selected for a much longer term need (Watts for example) rather than fixing an instant turn around in club fortunes so this again messes with the percentage arguments.

The other flaw is that of course if you get the rough end of the lottery system one year someone becomes a loser and is not happy, and someone else a winner and is stoked. But we all know that over time, the law of averages evens out. So it is not a real factor in the longer term. After our draft penalties and subsequent failures as a team we needed all the draft picks we could get and to lose a first pick to luck the 3 years we had them, (Murph, Gibbs, Kruze) would have been cruel, but as I said, this argument is only relevent to the losers now, but overall we would gain some picks through a reversal of that luck over time. It is not about who gets what luck when, if we agree that the law of averages would even that out over time. It is about finding an equitable way to make losing on purpose no longer a guarantee of a pick, which you do with a lottery.

And finally on salary caps (different argument to drafts of which I actually agree, I dont like salary caps but I do like the draft), it is grossly unfair that a club builds a list from scratch, with draft picks that whilst they vary in where they are taken, are all equally rated in terms of pay by the AFL, and over the years (and in some cases many years) of less than great results, they put together a stunning list and achieve some success, and as a result each and every one of them is offered more from rival clubs, but not all players offered more from the same club as that would not be possible for one team to do under their cap, but many clubs making big offers that when combined make it impossible for the team that put in all the hard work cannot contain within the cap. How is this a reward to clubs for creating great lists? It isnt. And for this reason I believe that once a player has been on a list for say 5 years, then half his pay is not counted in the cap and after 10 years all his pay is discounted from the cap but all of his pay is counted in the team that did not develop him but bought him. That is what the cap was meant to do, stop teams buying success, but it should never be used to stop them keeping a list together that they build. In this way clubs can build lists and realistically expect to hold it together. On the other hand you have the Brisbanes of the world that put themselves under cap pressure by going on spending sprees.

 

[Riders of Rohan]

The Pies have also cheated the salary cap a few times.

/facepalm

 

[Kreuzerlenko]

Well put. I like the NBA (I think) model where each team gets a number of lotto balls according to where they finish put into a barrel, so 16th gets 16 balls, 15th 15 and so on and then a lotto draw takes place to create the draft order. So the odds of getting first pick is 16 (or 17 from next year and 18 the year after) times that of the premier but there would still be a chance that the premier could get first pick. Or perhaps you restrict the lotto draw to the non finalist and then after that the ladder position reverts. Either way, it stops tanking to a degree in that losing does not guarantee anything but extra odds in the draw. It also adds some excitement and randomness to the system instead of the obvious and often slanted manipulation of the system.

I like it, I've always liked NBA's draft lottery and think its 100x better than the system the AFL has. In before people cry of "our great game becoming 'Americanised'"

 

[Scodog10]

No. Having Thomas does not add much to their team. Hawthorn's priority pick had a much bigger influence on them winning the flag than Thomas ever will. Collingwood tanked but it won't win them the flag. It's what they've done with their lower draft picks that will do that for them unfortunately.

Did you even watch the game on Saturday night? Thomas was in the best three on the ground so in my way of thinking he has had quite a big influence on this finals series already. But as a Carlton supporter i should realise you will never appreciate just how good a player Dale Thomas is.

 

[Aphrodite]

Did you even watch the game on Saturday night? Thomas was in the best three on the ground so in my way of thinking he has had quite a big influence on this finals series already. But as a Carlton supporter i should realise you will never appreciate just how good a player Dale Thomas is.

Who this guy

 

[Aphrodite]

We may have to stop that Aphro.
Thomas has shown enough this year to keep us all just that little bit quiet.
How was that one handed pick up on the run on Saturday?

Come on Harks ............

You know that is my fav Daisy pic

Thomas is only showing enough this year as the whole team is playing well.

I didn't see the one handed pick up as I didn't watch the game.
Did he have an opponent

 

[Scodog10]

Is that the best you can do to knock Thomas? Because i personally think he is one of the punciest and ugliest guys running around!!

The kid can play though and thats why I'm defending him but if you still cant accept that after his year so far that just shows your ignorance of football.

 

[parrot]

Did you even watch the game on Saturday night? Thomas was in the best three on the ground so in my way of thinking he has had quite a big influence on this finals series already. But as a Carlton supporter i should realise you will never appreciate just how good a player Dale Thomas is.

Thomas is a good player, but for a #2 pick he's pretty ordinary. You can get those type of players with 40-50 picks. That's the point. Doesn't do any one thing especially well. Even struggles to kick a set shot 40m out. Expect a lot more talent with a top-5 pick. He was actually ranked #12 in that draft, and it was a surprise that the Pies picked him up with their #2 pick. Disappointing considering the Pies tanked so hard to get 2 top-10 picks.