Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[kirsti]

And here is exactly why people are railing against this mindset. You are literally using your power to force people into either agreeing with a view or you shut it down. This is how laws get enacted and authoritarianism rules.

Is that what you want? Be honest. Do you want it forced upon people to use pronouns even if people don't agree with them?

This is a man with male genitalia and you're using your power to force people to refer to them as "she" or they can't partake in a conversation.

Boggles the mind. Especially when nobody is wishing any harm upon them or saying they can't call themselves what they want.

Being called the wrong pronoun or dead naming a transgender person intentionally hurts real people such as Hannah. This thread is to discuss the merits of trans people playing in the AFLW either stick to the subject or find a thread that you don’t have to play so nicely on.

 

[Neese]

And here is exactly why people are railing against this mindset. You are literally using your power to force people into either agreeing with a view or you shut it down. This is how laws get enacted and authoritarianism rules.

Is that what you want? Be honest. Do you want it forced upon people to use pronouns even if people don't agree with them?

This is a man with male genitalia and you're using your power to force people to refer to them as "she" or they can't partake in a conversation.

Boggles the mind. Especially when nobody I'm wishing no harm upon them or saying they can't call themselves what they want.

People you refer to=you.
Why does it bother you so much? How does it affect you personally?
It's about respect, you don't have to agree with something to be respectful.

 

[The_Wookie]

And here is exactly why people are railing against this mindset. You are literally using your power to force people into either agreeing with a view or you shut it down. This is how laws get enacted and authoritarianism rules.

Mods are however expecting some measure of respect for the person, if not for the issue. Its how conversations on this matter are carried out in a modern, civilised society.

It has been the stated position of moderators on this board since the transgender issue arose that we refer to them by the name and gender they wish to be identified with. Ive said this since the day the first transgender thread was opened on this board, and my position has not changed since the swarms arrived to berate and belittle their life choices.

Whether that is correct or not, is not a matter of discussion - nor is it strictly on topic - for the Womens Footy board. These questions and the discussion around them are more apropriate for other forums. (try the SRP board for example). Questions over playing qualifications, testing, and other quantifiable questions and discussion ARE apropriate. Discussion over who they ARE personally is not.

 

[Bostonian]

Being called the wrong pronoun or dead naming a transgender person intentionally hurts real people such as Hannah. This thread is to discuss the merits of trans people playing in the AFLW either stick to the subject or find a thread that you don’t have to play so nicely on.

If a daughter says I don't want to play against her because she is to big and rough and it scares me then people will say well maybe the game isn't for you.

If the same daughter can say the same thing about the same person but use him instead of her the context of the girls fear is completely different as is the context of why she feels he way she does.

If someones daughter doesn't want to play against a trans person through fear of being hurt where do we go from there when the fear is associated with playing agisnt a male opponent in their mind.

 

[kirsti]

Kirsti isnt "literally" doing anything of the kind. Mods are however expecting some measure of respect for the person, if not for the issue. Its how conversations on this matter are carried out in a modern, civilised society.

It has been the stated position of moderators on this board since the transgender issue arose that we refer to them by the name and gender they wish to be identified with. Ive said this since the day the first transgender thread was opened on this board, and my position has not changed since the swarms arrived to berate and belittle their life choices.

Whether that is correct or not, is not a matter of discussion - nor is it strictly on topic - for the Womens Footy board. These questions and the discussion around them are more apropriate for other forums. (try the SRP board for example). Questions over playing qualifications, testing, and other quantifiable questions and discussion ARE apropriate. Discussion over who they ARE personally is not.

I have some great news the Australian Sports Commission have asked me to be a consultant to help develop a national transgender sports participation policy and once developed I will be tasked with presenting this to sports organisations. We have an amazing team and I am feeling confident we will develop a policy that could be adopted globally.

This thread has been shared to many global experts in this field who were super impressed with the contributions made.

 

[kirsti]

If a daughter says I don't want to play against her because she is to big and rough and it scares me then people will say well maybe the game isn't for you.

If the same daughter can say the same thing about the same person but use him instead of her the context of the girls fear is completely different as is the context of why she feels he way she does.

If someones daughter doesn't want to play against a trans person through fear of being hurt where do we go from there when the fear is associated with playing agisnt a male opponent in their mind.

Hannah isn’t a male opponent she is a transitioning transwoman this should be the start point of your conversation with someone’s daughter.

 

[Bostonian]

Kirsti isnt "literally" doing anything of the kind. Mods are however expecting some measure of respect for the person, if not for the issue. Its how conversations on this matter are carried out in a modern, civilised society.

Where did I say Kristi has? I've only spoken of Mouncey's status.

 

[The_Wookie]

Where did I say Kristi has? I've only spoken of Mouncey's status.

Fixed. Message about mod expectations stands though.

 

[Bostonian]

People you refer to=you.
Why does it bother you so much? How does it affect you personally?
It's about respect, you don't have to agree with something to be respectful.

Because if a man expects me to call him a woman it's ridiculous to me.

That's just one example though, it's not an island where a ridiculous assertion is the only time that mindset is applied.

If someone told me they were the son of God and wanted me to call them the Messiah I'd be applying the same reasoning as I would in this situation.

If someone wants you to refer to them and see them as the son of God what are you going to think and do?

 

[owen87]

If someone wants you to refer to them and see them as the son of God what are you going to think and do?

Depends if they're Jesus or not, 2000 odd years ago someone did just that and it seemed to catch on.

 

[Bostonian]

Hannah isn’t a male opponent she is a transitioning transwoman this should be the start point of your conversation with someone’s daughter.

You only start there if you believe having some parts removed and taking various things to change other aspects creates a woman.

If that is not someones definition of a woman then Hannah is very much still a male who is attempting to resemble a woman.

As I've always said, I bare no ill will or malice towards anyone who wants to think or feel that way about themselves.

I just don't think a biological woman should have to compete in a woman's sport against biological males. Creating a situation where the biological female has zero option but to not play if they are uncomfortable playing against trans biological make isn't acceptable to my way of thinking.

 

[Bostonian]

Depends if they're Jesus or not, 2000 odd years ago someone did just that and it seemed to catch on.

Maybe they are maybe they aren't. The question was are you going to respect their claim or think they are a bit off their rocker?

I'd think they are off their rocker.

 

[kirsti]

You only start there if you believe having some parts removed and taking various things to change other aspects creates a woman.

If that is not someones definition of a woman then Hannah is very much still a male who is attempting to resemble a woman.

As I've always said, I bare no ill will or malice towards anyone who wants to think or feel that way about themselves.

I just don't think a biological woman should have to compete in a woman's sport against biological males. Creating a situation where the biological female has zero option but to not play if they are uncomfortable playing against trans biological make isn't acceptable to my way of thinking.

Can you stick to the subject either refer to Hannah by name or she pronoun I am not the only trans person participating in this thread we have a young trans teenager as well as others.

 

[Neese]

We know what you think. Why are you still in here? You're not adding anything new to the discussion.
Edit Bostonian

 

[owen87]

You only start there if you believe having some parts removed and taking various things to change other aspects creates a woman.

If that is not someones definition of a woman then Hannah is very much still a male who is attempting to resemble a woman.

As I've always said, I bare no ill will or malice towards anyone who wants to think or feel that way about themselves.

I just don't think a biological woman should have to compete in a woman's sport against biological males. Creating a situation where the biological female has zero option but to not play if they are uncomfortable playing against trans biological make isn't acceptable to my way of thinking.

Why is it black and white; can Mouncey not consider herself a she, be undergoing a process to become a woman (or as close as can happen within the limits of modern science) and live as a woman, but also be barred from participating in the VFLW or AFLW competitions in this case?

 

[Bostonian]

Why is it black and white; can Mouncey not consider herself a she, be undergoing a process to become a woman (or as close as can happen within the limits of modern science) and live as a woman, but also be barred from participating in the VFLW or AFLW competitions in this case?

Because you literally can not become a woman if you are born a man. It's physically impossible as you stated, which makes it a black and white scenario.

As such in relation to sport no person born as a male should ever compete in female sports unless it is a mixed competition.

 

[owen87]

Because you literally can not become a woman if you are born a man. It's physically impossible as you stated, which makes it a black and white scenario.

As such in relation to sport no person born as a male should ever compete in female sports unless it is a mixed competition.

And if by some accident of history, you're someone who feels as though they're a male born in a female's body or vice-versa, should that individual not have the ability to change how the world views them?

I also have never said I believe Mouncey should be allowed to participate in the AFLW, I think that topic can be discussed without being disrespectful to the individual.

Kirsti I think has been pretty good at providing information about her own experience, along with being very tolerant of hearing views that conflict with her own, even when presented disrespectfully. I don't think it's too hard for me to be respectful of her in return, given there's no real consequence for me to call her, her, when discussing the context of participation in women's sport.

How do you then classify the case of someone like Caster Semenya, where she's born and has lived life entirely as a female, but has a significant biological advantage over > 99% of female elite athletes due to her biology? There's not just a black and white ruling here, and Semenya's case is much more interesting than Mouncey's personally.

 

[Bostonian]

Can you stick to the subject either refer to Hannah by name or she pronoun I am not the only trans person participating in this thread we have a young trans teenager as well as others.

If I don't know the person why would I be compelled to call them by a certain name or pronoun?

We call almost every single footballer by their surname over their name do we not?

 

[Bostonian]

And if by some accident of history, you're someone who feels as though they're a male born in a female's body or vice-versa, should that individual not have the ability to change how the world views them?

They can by all means. You can't force people to recognise that change though can you?

I also have never said I believe Mouncey should be allowed to participate in the AFLW, I think that topic can be discussed without being disrespectful to the individual.

I believe all I've said is I don't believe Mouncey is a woman/female. If that's considered disrespectful then we're already seeing the thought Stasi shutting down anyone else's views.

Kirsti I think has been pretty good at providing information about her own experience, along with being very tolerant of hearing views that conflict with her own, even when presented disrespectfully. I don't think it's too hard for me to be respectful of her in return, given there's no real consequence for me to call her, her, when discussing the context of participation in women's sport.

Can one not respectfully disagree with someone's assertion?

What if I feel ridiculous calling Bruce Jenner Caitlyn when quite clearly it's still Bruce Jenner with some cosmetic surgery?

How do you then classify the case of someone like Caster Semenya, where she's born and has lived life entirely as a female, but has a significant biological advantage over > 99% of female elite athletes due to her biology? There's not just a black and white ruling here, and Semenya's case is much more interesting than Mouncey's personally.

Semenya is a vastly different case from Mouncey's. In regards to that female athletes have been complaining for years about Semenya's advantages over them.

How will female VFLW players be treated if they come out and say they do not wish to play against Mouncey?

Even when Daisy Pearce came out in support of Mouncey the gender warriors still found a way to attack DP opinion.

 

[kirsti]

Because you literally can not become a woman if you are born a man. It's physically impossible as you stated, which makes it a black and white scenario.

As such in relation to sport no person born as a male should ever compete in female sports unless it is a mixed competition.

In every state of Australia a change of birth certificate is an option and like myself who was issued a female birth certificate in 2006 in certain areas of life you can me forced to accept this change of sex such as in the workplace.

I was never under the assumption that I could suddenly turn back time and become a biologically born female but I did meet the necessary legal and medical requirements to achieve this legal change of sex.

If an AFLW player came out and protested my participation in sport they would have no legal precedent or law to do so. Exemptions can be sought by sports bodies if they can prove an advantage in strength and endurance is an issue but this cannot be used against a trans person that has legally changed their sex.

If you went to watch Hannah play in the AFLW and vilified her on her transgender status you would be subjected to the AFLs Members Protectiocy.

 

[sprockets]

As I said; I think he's welcome to debate the topic at hand - transgender players in the AFLW - but doing so doesn't mean you have the be disrespectful to the individual person.

Surely we can agree that Mouncey is as much a person deserving of respect as the rest of us, and making the effort to either use the individuals preferred pronoun - her - or just work around it by not using a gender pronoun if it's something that you have particular strong feelings about. It's not as though this was a mistake, it's as deliberate as me calling a gay person a ****** and saying it's fine because they have a mental illness.

As I said above - in my opinion - you play the ball, not the man. We can discuss whether a transgender player should compete in the AFLW without having to be offensive to make our point, and if his view is that Mouncey shouldn't be participating in the AFLW or VFLW competitions, I would agree.

He's entitled to put forward any argument in any way he likes, whether he's right or wrong. It's not up to you. If 'Hannah' feels he's being mean he/she can join in the discussion and tell him. If you don't agree with him then don't agree and move on.

On one of the farms around here there's an alpaca that lives with a heard of 100 or so sheep and he does everything the sheep do, eats whatever they eat and goes wherever they go. He obviously 'identifies' himself as a sheep. But he's an alpaca.

 

[sprockets]

If you went to watch Hannah play in the VFLW and vilified her on her gender status under the AFLs Members Protection Policy if identified you would face sanctions.

But would you be breaking any laws?

 

[Bostonian]

In every state of Australia a change of birth certificate is an option and like myself who was issued a female birth certificate in 2006 in certain areas of life you can me forced to accept this change of sex such as in the workplace.

I was never under the assumption that I could suddenly turn back time and become a biologically born female but I did meet the necessary legal and medical requirements to achieve this legal change of sex.

If an AFLW player came out and protested my participation in sport they would have no legal precedent or law to do so. Exemptions can be sought by sports bodies if they can prove an advantage in strength and endurance is an issue but this cannot be used against a trans person that has legally changed their sex.

If you went to watch Hannah play in the AFLW and vilified her on her transgender status you would be subjected to the AFLs Members Protectiocy.

As I've often said, the law is an ass. Some laws are needed, some laws are good, others are simply put in place to shut down any discourse or objection to a point of view.

Is there anything actually wrong with someone having a set definition of what constitutes a male and what constitutes a female?

And should they be compelled by law to change their view?

 

[Over The Post]

Is there anything actually wrong with someone having a set definition of what constitutes a male and what constitutes a female?
And should they be compelled by law to change their view?

No, and no.

But there is a time and place for everything. Nobody is telling you what to think or to change your mind. What I, and others, are telling you is that your particular mindset and the way you express it is not appropriate in this thread. Feel free to espouse your views elsewhere. Would you go into a known LGBTQwhatever-friendly bar, order a pint, and announce to all and sundry including the resident transgenders that "blokes have dicks and if you have a dick you're forever a bloke and that's that!"? Perfectly valid viewpoint, you're entitled to that opinion, but you'd be being confrontational for the hell of it.

Edit: Went overboard

 

[owen87]

He's entitled to put forward any argument in any way he likes, whether he's right or wrong. It's not up to you. If 'Hannah' feels he's being mean he/she can join in the discussion and tell him. If you don't agree with him then don't agree and move on.

On one of the farms around here there's an alpaca that lives with a heard of 100 or so sheep and he does everything the sheep do, eats whatever they eat and goes wherever they go. He obviously 'identifies' himself as a sheep. But he's an alpaca.

He can put forward that opinion, I can disagree with that opinion. Both have been occurring in this thread.

I agree with some aspects of his views regarding the participation of Mouncey in the AFLW / VFLW, I disagree with his approach to how he refers to Mouncey.

I’m not sure an Alpaca is self-aware enough to feel any kind of distress over whether or not it is a sheep, but it also sounds like the sheep aren’t making an effort to point out how different or wrong the alpaca is either.

I’m glad we’ve clarified that sheep are more tolerant than people.