Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[jatz14]

Exception and rarity are one and the same

No, they are not. A Chinese person over 6 foot 1 is an exception, but not rare. A Chinese hermaphrodite named Fred over 6 foot 1 is both an exception, and rare.

 

[Toump Ass]

Would female contact sport players like Men to play in their league? If not, why not ?

Of course not- they're men.

Would female contact sport players in the AFLw like transwomen to play in their league? I'd be surprised if they didn't.

I understand the AFL players association were consulted. Does anyone know if AFLw players were consulted?

 

[Carringbush2010]

A Chinese person over 6 foot 1 is an exception, but not rare

No they're not an exception nor are they rare, not the majority certainly but neither an exception or rare

 

[jatz14]

Of course not- they're men.

Would female contact sport players in the AFLw like transwomen to play in their league? I'd be surprised if they didn't.

I understand the AFL players association were consulted. Does anyone know if AFLw players were consulted?

They are keeping pretty quiet about it. Like they kept pretty quiet about pay disputes. I think most of them are still in the `don't rock the boat` phase of their careers. I actually appreciate their position, if you do not want her, and speak up, you are speaking against the AFLs general policy of inclusion. Say she should be included, you are speaking up against their decision. In their position, I would be, I will just keep quiet, and deal with whatever happens.

 

[Kappa]

Of course not- they're men.

Would female contact sport players in the AFLw like transwomen to play in their league? I'd be surprised if they didn't.

I understand the AFL players association were consulted. Does anyone know if AFLw players were consulted?

Early on in treatment there can be very little difference physically between a transwomen and a man... But females are happy to play with one and not the other because men are too big/strong? Doesn't make logical sense.

 

[sprockets]

But at the end of the day they’re still undebatably an apple.
Whether the genetically modified apple has an advantage over the natural one (that would be considered significant enough to warrant barring transgender athletes) is what is being discussed, and is a question that no one in the world knows the answer to; no matter what certain posters in here would like to think.

That's my point, why change something when it may well be worse? Changing things only to please TS athletes or for alleged 'equality' when things may not actually be equal isn't the answer. Changing things to make them better is what we should be trying to achieve. It's very possible that allowing TS footballers to compete against females disadvantages the females.

 

[Aeglos]

That's my point, why change something when it may well be worse? Changing things only to please TS athletes or for alleged 'equality' when things may not actually be equal isn't the answer. Changing things to make them better is what we should be trying to achieve. It's very possible that allowing TS footballers to compete against females disadvantages the females.

I agree entirely, however the AFL decision is odd given they tend to tow the line of the IOC who would have allowed Mouncey to participate, not to mention their push for equality/inclusion as well as the rather unusual timing of the announcement.

 

[Aeglos]

Early on in treatment there can be very little difference physically between a transwomen and a man... But females are happy to play with one and not the other because men are too big/strong? Doesn't make logical sense.

I don’t think you’ll find anyone who argues otherwise with regards to the first sentence, however someone in the infantile stages of transitioning isn’t what is being discussed.

 

[Toump Ass]

Early on in treatment there can be very little difference physically between a transwomen and a man... But females are happy to play with one and not the other because men are too big/strong? Doesn't make logical sense.

I'm absolutely certain that the women who play AFLW- many of whom are part of the queer community- would be a little more understanding than you.

There's already transwomen playing footy in other leagues without complaint.

 

[Furn2]

There is no inherent difference between male and female muscle, we are not seperate species. The women in the 20 to late 20s age range often played in boys comps until 14. The very good players often dominated their age group.

They stop being able to compete after puberty related changes that are almost entirely hormonal. The effect of hormones on dense slowly growing tissue like tendons and bones are slow to reverse, but muscle is not.

This idea that she has 'male muscle' is a myth. She used to have testosterone effected muscle, now she has oestrogen effected muscle.

Maybe 12 months is not completely long enough, I'm ok with that.

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Actually the differences are huge.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4285578/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3360677/

 

[jatz14]

Actually the differences are huge.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4285578/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3360677/

Thanks for the articles. Have you thoroughly read them (I will admit, I haven't read the second, the first was hard work). Given the first generally validates my argument, but you seem to think they contradict it, I would think you haven't. Let me summarise.

My argument is, there is not a significant difference (although there is some) between male and female muscle pre-puberty, and post puberty differences are largely hormonal. Muscle responds dynamically to these hormonal changes, ie a muscle exposed to testosterone is different to muscle exposed to oestrogen, but the changes are not permanent. A post transition female is not a person with a male physiology in a dress, as people are arguing.

Firstly, the article is largely talking about adults, so post puberty differences in muscle.

Second, there are differences in contraction rates, and maximum forces, and these largely depend on differences in proportions of muscle fibre types. Women have a higher proportion of slower acting muscle fibre types, and men a higher proportion of faster acting muscle types. Also, muscle fibre diameter is greater in men than in women. Therefore, men generate faster muscle action, generating more force, however, the slower reacting muscle fibre in women is less prone to fatigue. I would note that the heading refers to sex related differences in muscle, it does not say female muscle is inferior. In terms of fatigue resistance, it is significantly superior, and footy is above all an endurance sport. `Elbow flexor muscle endurance time to fatigue is 1806 sec in females, and 829 sec in males`. `Force falls to approx 93% of max in women, and 80% of max in men following fatigue`. So, fatigue occurs faster and has a greater effect in male muscle than female.

Female hormones - as this is a discussion of a transwomen, this bit is relevant. Muscle is an oestrogen receptor tissue, and there is no difference between male and female muscle in oestrogen receptors. There are differences in response to oestrogen.

Third (this is the interesting bit) Testosterone deficiency leads to a decline in body mass, a decrease in fast twitch fibre diameter, a conversion to slow twitch fibres fibres, and enhanced fatigue resistance in males but not females.

In summary, post puberty, males have larger diameter muscle fibres, with a higher proportion of fast twitch types, producing greater forces and contraction rates, but faster fatigue. If testosterone is removed, fibre diameter decreases, and fast twitch fibre proportion falls, force and contraction rates decrease and fatigue resistance increases. In other words, most of the difference is hormonal, and if you remove the testosterone exposure from male muscle, it starts to look and behave increasingly like female muscle. Which is basically what I said.

 

[Aeglos]

I’d be impressed if someone could tell me if this was male or female tissue by looking at it
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/16/5c/f8/165cf87044bc21e1699264a3dac06dc3.jpg

 

[kirsti]

https://omny.fm/shows/sportsday/transgender-athlete-kirsty-miller

 

[LeverPuller]

Hannah's going to be on 60 Minutes on Sunday.

 

[kirsti]

Hannah's going to be on 60 Minutes on Sunday.

The trailer doesn't look good.

 

[LeverPuller]

The trailer doesn't look good.

I agree. And while I understand she's going through treatment etc when the average punter hears her speak I think it'll drive people away unfortunately.

 

[kirsti]

I agree. And while I understand she's going through treatment etc when the average punter hears her speak I think it'll drive people away unfortunately.

The editing couldn't be any worse in the trailer. It's interesting Carollota opposes pre op trans girls playing women's sports.

 

[kirsti]

I agree. And while I understand she's going through treatment etc when the average punter hears her speak I think it'll drive people away unfortunately.

The editing couldn't be any worse in the trailer. It's interesting Carollota opposes pre op trans girls playing women's sports.https://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/...der-footballer-ruled-out-of-women-s-afl-draft

 

[Punt rd end]

I am sorry, but as a woman I feel that allowing transgender women to play women's sport (especially pre op) compromises the competition. Imagine training your guts out from a young girl to become elite only to be beaten by someone that has had testosterone aided growth for most of their life.

 

[kirsti]

I am sorry, but as a woman I feel that allowing transgender women to play women's sport (especially pre op) compromises the competition. Imagine training your guts out from a young girl to become elite only to be beaten by someone that has had testosterone aided growth for most of their life.

Would you be afraid to tackle me I am 57 kgs and a trans woman

 

[Punt rd end]

Would you be afraid to tackle me I am 57 kgs and a trans woman
View attachment 434656

I could easily tackle you but you have had the op and have been on the drugs for a very long time. (I listened to your interview on 3aw) Hanna on the other hand wants to play in the AFLW and hasn't even had the op yet FFS

 

[Royal Flush]

Re 60 minutes. This is a circus. The only difference between myself and Hannah playing in the women's league is anti androgen drugs.
I've been on and off in the gym for 12 years and Hannah can squat and deadlift a lot more then me. I'd need to take PED to get close to her strength pre female hormone drugs

On VTR-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[kirsti]

I could easily tackle you but you have had the op and have been on the drugs for a very long time. (I listened to your interview on 3aw) Hanna on the other hand wants to play in the AFLW and hasn't even had the op yet FFS

The op status seems the most contentious issue, I have coped some flack from some in the trans community for my support of the AFL,s decision with Hannah.

Everyone is saying she meets the IOC criteria all that Hannah has met is the appropriate testosterone level. If selected for the Olympics she would have to be considered on a case by case basis to determine if her advantage in women's competition is minimised.

I am pretty quick you might not catch me

 

[kirsti]

Re 60 minutes. This is a circus. The only difference between myself and Hannah playing in the women's league is anti androgen drugs.
I've been on and off in the gym for 12 years and Hannah can squat and deadlift a lot more then me. I'd need to take PED to get close to her strength pre female hormone drugs

On VTR-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

And some estrogen. I am advocating strongly to have the current IOC guidelines for trans athletes suspended and temporarily replaced with the original Stockholm Consensus recommendations and the original trans 2003 policy until a much more clearer set of guidelines can be developed.

 

[Punt rd end]

And some estrogen. I am advocating strongly to have the current IOC guidelines for trans athletes suspended and temporarily replaced with the original Stockholm Consensus recommendations and the original trans 2003 policy until a much more clearer set of guidelines can be developed.

I applaud your efforts because as it stands I can see some sports with the "whatever it takes" attitude searching out transgender people to replace bio women because of performance.