Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[noone]

Why is this crap in the AFL board send it to the awfl board

 

[The_Wookie]

Why is this crap in the AFL board send it to the awfl board

It'll be moved over when its less current news. No point moving it if a dozen similar threads start up. Plus its the offseason, more leeway is given.

 

[Slartibartfast]

not sure if serious?

he is a man. I do get to choose the sex because thats how he was born..

You just don't get it.
You want to make it all simplistic that if the have a bolt you are this, a socket you are this.
It is not about the physical sexual appendage that determines how one identifies themselves. There is the mental side which drives sexuality and emotional expression and this determines how they perceive there inner self.
This is the challenge facing her all through life, to say she has a utensil therefore..... Just shows your lack of desire to even try and understand.
There is just not two pegs in this world, a round and a square that fit neatly into the round and square holes.
Life is more complex than that.

 

[Dazzler9]

Bad decision which perpetuates the marginalisation if transgender people.

If Hannah identifies as a female and has undergone requisite medical treatment to align her biological profile with her gender then she should be able to play.

She hasn't yet had gender re-assignment surgery, as I understand. My view is that should at least be a given before considering any other factors.

 

[_Mike_]

Why is this crap in the AFL board send it to the awfl board

The message is, if a poster does not agree and cannot disagree in a respectful manner then refrain from partaking in the discussion.

 

[Racing line]

The correct decision was made. You cannot have someone that big who used to be a male but is now a female because she identifies herself as a female playing against females by birth. Also my post was deleted for saying shemale. I did not mean to be offensive and never knew that it was offensive. I was just trying to distinguish between transgender females and females from birth. What term would pass through the PC filter which clearly distinguishes trans female to a female from birth?

 

[jatz14]

Bad decision which perpetuates the marginalisation if transgender people.

If Hannah identifies as a female and has undergone requisite medical treatment to align her biological profile with her gender then she should be able to play.

The decision is based on testing which suggests she is not fully aligned. Kristi in this thread has said herself she did not think she was aligned after 12 months, and it should be at least 2 years.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[Badesumofu]

I would imagine that a large part of the issue here was that she is 190 CM and 100 KG - being born biologically male and going through puberty that way gives you a far greater chance of achieving those statistics than being born biologically female. I do understand, by the way, the biological sex is a spectrum but in this case that doesn't seem relevant, she was fairly straightforwardly biologically male as I understand it.

I think really raises a difficult question. The intersection of being 190 CM and good at football and born biologically female is quite a bit rarer than the same but born biologically male. Is that an element of advantage that can't be fully mitigated by hormone therapy? On the other hand, having a body like that but no testosterone in your system is probably a significant handicap in itself.

Sometimes you can't be fair to everyone. I hope Hannah can get through this and maybe she will be able to enter the draft in the future.

 

[kirsti]

I am so proud that the AFL has made what I believe the best judgement call in delaying Hannah's attempt at joining the AFLW. What does concern me if she was found to be unsuitable at the elite level of the sport She should also be denied the opportunity to play at the grassroots level. I don't say this lightly but Hannah has been deemed a safety concern and until further testing including Vo2 Oxygen and muscle mass.

I was interviewed by a journalist today hopefully a story to be released tonight.

I have supported the AFL's decision. and I have expressed my concerns with Hannah playing a full contact sport until further consideration is made. I have also expressed my concerns with the 12 blanket policy and my concerns with pre operative trans woman playing full contact sport at any level and other sports at the elite level.


When I started this thead I hoped it would be respectful and from what I have seen it generally has been. I have learnt a lot in this thread some of you punters really surprise me with your extremely well informed and respectful posts.

As a trans Sportspersons, parent and grandparent I want to see the maximum amount of trans people playing sport at all levels but equally important I want the integrity of women's sport maintained. I believe the AFL's decision will enable these goals of
mine to come to fruition.

Thanks guys, girls and all those in between xxxxxxxxxxx

 

[strung_out7]

This isnt SRP and it certainly isnt Breitbart.

'SJW' trolling, calling or inferring that transgender people are 'disgusting' or referring to a transgender person that identifies as a she 'He' is going to get you thread banned, infacted or worse.

Ive tried to steer you away. Last warning.

I will not be merciful.

How dare they

 

[Racing line]

You just don't get it.
You want to make it all simplistic that if the have a bolt you are this, a socket you are this.
It is not about the physical sexual appendage that determines how one identifies themselves. There is the mental side which drives sexuality and emotional expression and this determines how they perceive there inner self.
This is the challenge facing her all through life, to say she has a utensil therefore..... Just shows your lack of desire to even try and understand.
There is just not two pegs in this world, a round and a square that fit neatly into the round and square holes.
Life is more complex than that.

Of course its mental i get that all trans people are chicks stuck inside dudes bodies (and vice versa???) but its irrelevant if the person identifies themselves as a female if their body is a blokes body still...even if watered down by chick hormones.

 

[Furn2]

Are people really questioning THE International Olympic Committee? The IOC is THE highest sporting body on the planet.

Their findings were clear. The current scientific literature supports their decision.

This is SCIENCE. Not politics.

The AFL gave in to fear and hysteria.

The actual meaningful science on this is extremely limited and at not at all conclusive.

 

[Paratus78]

Infracted and deleted.

Please people. Continue to test my resolve with this s**t.

Why don't you lock this thread? For christs sake it reached ridiculous levels

 

[catstorm]

Scientific consensus is that in many cases, pre puberty transition is best. Scientific consensus is how science works.

There are specific puberty blocker drugs and so forth that stop a woman (born a boy) from the testosterone surge and developing a beard, body hair, muscle mass, thicker bones etc during puberty.

In addition to blocking testosterone, they can give estrogen to encourage growing natural breasts etc.

The other option is let the kid go through puberty as a boy, then try and undo the changes of puberty.

Physcially and psychologically, assiting a transgender kid through puberty as the gender they identify with is much better for the kids mental health, and cuts out a lot of problems later on.

Depends on the child. They dont just start pumping hormone blockers into a boy that gets caught playing with Barbie dolls. There is a fair bit more to it than that.

The problem with this is that studies have shown that in most of cases of pre pubescent gender dysphoria/gender variant that the child's dysphoria ceases at puberty, however if it persist into puberty then it is likely to be permanent and gender reassignment should be looked at.

Drescher, J, & Pula, J 2014, 'Ethical Issues Raised by the Treatment of Gender-Variant Prepubescent Children', The Hastings Center Report, no. s4, p. 17.

Looking into the ethics of it perhaps a middle ground could be reached in that there are treatments that are available that do not have a permanent effects and could be reversed if changes occurred within the child and they no longer identified as an opposing gender to birth, but I think any action that would have permanent results that could lead to something like sterility in a pre pubescent child is manifestly unethical.

Abel, BS 2014, 'Hormone Treatment of Children and Adolescents with Gender Dysphoria: An Ethical Analysis', The Hastings Center Report, no. s4, p. 23.

 

[ashep]

**** political correctness, she should not be allowed to compete with women who were born as women. It's such an unfair advantage and makes a mockery of women trying to play professionally. Sure get sex changes if you would like but you should have to forgo professional sport then.

Coming from a supporter of the club who picked up Melksham and Hibberd after their bodies were pumped full of performance enhancing drugs this is ridiculously hypocritical and ignorant.

 

[Malifice]

Why don't you lock this thread? For christs sake it reached ridiculous levels

I'm not far off

 

[_Mike_]

he is a man. I do get to choose the sex because thats how he was born..

The 2013 amendment to the Commonwealth legislation recognises gender identity and gender status to the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth). The Family Court has also recognised gender identity disorder in young children to legally permit hormonal therapy to minors based on their capacity to consent.

Whether another person agrees or doesnt, the Australian Human Rights Commission moved the amendments to the Sexual Discrimination Act to give due rights to people who for their personal reasons to make application to change their gender and identity without fear of persecution or discrimination.

 

[The_Wookie]

Why don't you lock this thread? For christs sake it reached ridiculous levels

Its a discussion that Bigfooty is going to have at some point. Personally, Id hope people could just have a respectful discussion without resorting to name calling.

 

[BigHippy]

Think you are jumping and ignoring at age 37 Fallon Fox fought their first fight- and their only loss was against somebody who failed a drug test in their next fight (while the fight was controversial) before that fighter went onto the UFC.

So Fallon Fox fights their first fight at 37 (show me some others who fought their first fight at 37), loses only one fight (where they got punched in the head after the round ended repeatedly) against someone who tested positive for drugs in their next fight and went onto the UFC.

What happened if she started at 30... or 26.

The fighter who beat Fox is now 2-3 in the UFC, so she isn't exactly tearing it up. As I've mentioned previously in this thread I'm not educated enough on this topic to lay down a ruling on what the acceptable guidelines for MtF athletes are, but if the advantage was as big as many here claim you'd have expected Fox to do a lot better than losing to the only high level opponent she faced (who herself struggles at the highest level). If she waltzed in and KO'd some big names in women's MMA (Rousey, Nunes, Holm, Shevchenko, etc.) then that would be a very strong argument. But that didn't happen, not even close.

When they fought, it was also Evans-Smith's 2nd professional fight vs. Fox's 4th professional fight. So she had more fight experience and still lost.

As for fighters having their first fight at 37 I'm sure it happens a fair bit in the lower levels that Fox was fighting in. At the top level, not so much, but you do have Yoel Romero making his UFC debut at 36. Daniel Cormier is the UFC Light-Heavyweight champion at 38, and Michael Bisping is the UFC Middleweight champion at 38. So competing at the highest level at that age is possible.

 

[The_Wookie]

I am so proud that the AFL has made what I believe the best judgement call in delaying Hannah's attempt at joining the AFLW. What does concern me if she was found to be unsuitable at the elite level of the sport She should also be denied the opportunity to play at the grassroots level. I don't say this lightly but Hannah has been deemed a safety concern and until further testing including Vo2 Oxygen and muscle mass.

Reading the various articles today, it does seem that there was considerable consultation between all parties, and none of those involved seem to have a bad word to say about the process - only people on the outside looking in.

 

[_Mike_]

Any idiot who lets there child make such choices before they become of age (adult) to make there own life decisions is simply put, an idiot.

[2013] FamCAFC 110

Perhaps the Family Court are also idiots. The point being, someone who makes such a decision to undergo a course of therapy is not a brash decision made on the basis of being trendy or simply making a statement. Hence the reason to assess capacity to consent is not taken lightly by the family court

 

[MightyTiger]

https://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/83686

Reference Values

TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL

Males

0-5 months: 75-400 ng/dL

6 months-9 years: <7-20 ng/dL

10-11 years: <7-130 ng/dL

12-13 years: <7-800 ng/dL

14 years: <7-1,200 ng/dL

15-16 years: 100-1,200 ng/dL

17-18 years: 300-1,200 ng/dL

> or =19 years: 240-950 ng/dL

Tanner Stages*

I (prepubertal): <7-20

II: 8-66

III: 26-800

IV: 85-1,200

V (young adult): 300-950



Females

0-5 months: 20-80 ng/dL

6 months-9 years: <7-20 ng/dL

10-11 years: <7-44 ng/dL

12-16 years: <7-75 ng/dL

17-18 years: 20-75 ng/dL

> or =19 years: 8-60 ng/dL

Tanner Stages*

I (prepubertal): <7-20

II: <7-47

III: 17-75

IV: 20-75

V (young adult): 12-60



*Puberty onset (transition from Tanner stage I to Tanner stage II) occurs for boys at a median age of 11.5 (+/-2) years and for girls at a median age of 10.5 (+/-2) years. There is evidence that it may occur up to 1 year earlier in obese girls and in African American girls. For boys, there is no definite proven relationship between puberty onset and body weight or ethnic origin. Progression through Tanner stages is variable. Tanner stage V (young adult) should be reached by age 18.



TESTOSTERONE, FREE

Males (adult):

20 - <25 years: 5.25-20.7 ng/dL

25 - <30 years: 5.05-19.8 ng/dL

30 - <35 years: 4.85-19.0 ng/dL

35 - <40 years: 4.65-18.1 ng/dL

40 - <45 years: 4.46-17.1 ng/dL

45 - <50 years: 4.26-16.4 ng/dL

50 - <55 years: 4.06-15.6 ng/dL

55 - <60 years: 3.87-14.7 ng/dL

60 - <65 years: 3.67-13.9 ng/dL

65 - <70 years: 3.47-13.0 ng/dL

70 - <75 years: 3.28-12.2 ng/dL

75 - <80 years: 3.08-11.3 ng/dL

80 - <85 years: 2.88-10.5 ng/dL

85 - <90 years: 2.69-9.61 ng/dL

90 - <95 years: 2.49-8.76 ng/dL

95-100+ years: 2.29-7.91 ng/dL



Males (children):

<1 year: Term infants



1 to 15 days: 0.20-3.10 ng/dL*

16 days to 1 year: Values decrease gradually from newborn (0.20-3.10 ng/dL) to prepubertal levels

*Citation: J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1973;36(6):1132-1142



1-8 years: <0.04-0.11 ng/dL

9 years: <0.04-0.45 ng/dL

10 years: <0.04-1.26 ng/dL

11 years: <0.04-5.52 ng/dL

12 years: <0.04-9.28 ng/dL

13 years: <0.04-12.6 ng/dL

14 years: 0.48-15.3 ng/dL

15 years: 1.62-17.7 ng/dL

16 years: 2.93-19.5 ng/dL

17 years: 4.28-20.9 ng/dL

18 years: 5.40-21.8 ng/dL

19 years: 5.36-21.2 ng/dL



Females (adult):

20 - <25 years: 0.06-1.08 ng/dL

25 - <30 years: 0.06-1.06 ng/dL

30 - <35 years: 0.06-1.03 ng/dL

35 - <40 years: 0.06-1.00 ng/dL

40 - <45 years: 0.06-0.98 ng/dL

45 - <50 years: 0.06-0.95 ng/dL

50 - <55 years: 0.06-0.92 ng/dL

55 - <60 years: 0.06-0.90 ng/dL

60 - <65 years: 0.06-0.87 ng/dL

65 - <70 years: 0.06-0.84 ng/dL

70 - <75 years: 0.06-0.82 ng/dL

75 - <80 years: 0.06-0.79 ng/dL

80 - <85 years: 0.06-0.76 ng/dL

85 - <90 years: 0.06-0.73 ng/dL

90 - <95 years: 0.06-0.71 ng/dL

95-100+ years: 0.06-0.68 ng/dL



Females (children):

<1 year: Term infants



1 to 15 days: 0.06-0.25 ng/dL*

16 days to 1 year: Values decrease gradually from newborn (0.06-0.25 ng/dL) to prepubertal levels

*Citation: J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1973;36(6):1132-1142



1-4 years: <0.04 ng/dL

5 years: <0.04-0.07 ng/dL

6 years: <0.04-0.14 ng/dL

7 years: <0.04-0.23 ng/dL

8 years: <0.04-0.34 ng/dL

9 years: <0.04-0.46 ng/dL

10 years: <0.04-0.59 ng/dL

11 years: <0.04-0.72 ng/dL

12 years: <0.04-0.84 ng/dL

13 years: <0.04-0.96 ng/dL

14 years: <0.04-1.06 ng/dL

15-18 years: <0.04-1.09 ng/dL

19 years: 0.06-1.08 ng/dL



TESTOSTERONE, BIOAVAILABLE

Males

< or =19 years: not established

20-29 years: 83-257 ng/dL

30-39 years: 72-235 ng/dL

40-49 years: 61-213 ng/dL

50-59 years: 50-190 ng/dL

60-69 years: 40-168 ng/dL

> or =70 years: not established

Females (non-oophorectomized)

< or =19 years: not established

20-50 years (on oral estrogen): 0.8-4.0 ng/dL

20-50 years (not on oral estrogen): 0.8-10 ng/dL

>50 years: not established

 

[Furn2]

What happens if we get a 190cm, 100kg woman who was born female wanting to play AFLW? Will she get knocked back too?

If she had been given male levels of anabolic steroids and growth hormones since the age of 12 then yes.

 

[MightyTiger]

[2013] FamCAFC 110

Perhaps the Family Court are also idiots. The point being, someone who makes such a decision to undergo a course of therapy is not a brash decision made on the basis of being trendy or simply making a statement. Hence the reason to assess capacity to consent is not taken lightly by the family court

Yes they are, government and courts are to scared of being accused of discrimination and politics when it comes to such things.

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

No you dont get to choose her gender. Its not your life to live. She gets to choose her gender. She doesnt get to choose your gender either. The door swings both ways.

She was born a biological man. We get that. Thats a statement of objective fact. However she chooses to identify as a woman. You dont get the right to take that choice away from her, trivialse that choice or belittle her on that choice.

This isnt a question of debate. Dont do it. Its ignorant at best, and a form of discrimination at worst.

Does my racial identity determine my race?