Fremantle and Ross Lyon - where to now

pablo668

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He's been to 3 grand finals (2 of which could easily have fallen his way). In what way does that indicate his systems don't work?
In what way? Well in the way that they are largely out of date. He's a good 3-5 years behind the rest of the comp.
 

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Smeg Head

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Nice GIF, it honestly gave me a laugh, of course Freo aint crashing.

Lets say worst case scenario, Lyon does a complete ninja departure and is coaching Carlton come Saturday, a few Saints fans have been bleeting on since late 2011 that he'd bail and leave our club in tatters.

Instead he's shown he might just be a capable rebuilder, Fremantle's list is in decent shape, can always be improved, and performances are on the up. Off field, we havent traded the future away with picks (missing some later rounds this year atm) and the club continues to be solid as when it comes to finances and memberships.

Lyon ain't leaving but if he did, the house is in order and it'd be one of the more attractive coaching positions available with a plan to be playing finals asap.
Thematically Bell will save the Freo monorail if you follow it through.
 

Joao

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In what way? Well in the way that they are largely out of date. He's a good 3-5 years behind the rest of the comp.
Wait, are we judging him on when Zac Dawson was playing or are we judging him on now?
 

pablo668

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Wait, are we judging him on when Zac Dawson was playing or are we judging him on now?
Good question.
To me, his style hasn't changed that much over the years. The last two wins we had were good to see, but I think the same problems remain. We almost never put teams away and we are still grinding out narrow wins. Now sure that's better than narrow losses but it can only get you so far.

Listen, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong. It won't be such a bad thing if Ross proves me wrong and we go ahead and win a lot of games and play finals.
He's not the coach that I want at the club, but pphhththt, I don't run the place.
 

Joao

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Good question.
To me, his style hasn't changed that much over the years. The last two wins we had were good to see, but I think the same problems remain. We almost never put teams away and we are still grinding out narrow wins. Now sure that's better than narrow losses but it can only get you so far.

Listen, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong. It won't be such a bad thing if Ross proves me wrong and we go ahead and win a lot of games and play finals.
He's not the coach that I want at the club, but pphhththt, I don't run the place.
We put away North and had a good margin on GWS at Canberra. Does that not count? The goal posts move all over the shop.

The way I see it is you have a non-quantifiable view as to why you don't like him and you want to apply the evidence to fit your narrative. That is exactly why you sound like 95% of BF posters. It's totally fine not to like him, but that is not the same as him not being able to coach.
 

theGav56

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It would probably be a good move for us and Carlton

Lyons been at Freo for ages , do you think we don't have all his defensive systems down pat ?

If we were forced to hire a more offensive coach would it be the end of the world ?

I love Perth , want to stay here long term blah blah

Next minute , coffees with Carlton

Soon as he could grab back some power with a couple of good but kinda lucky wins he straight away spins around and points it at Freo's head

He's a deadset W
You do know that is not a quote from me don't you.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/search/402707/?q=Better+sign+him+up+for+10+years!!!+We’ll+never+have+a+better+coach!&c[users]=theGav56&o=date
 

Cold Sober

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White Ant is getting restless
 

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pablo668

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We put away North and had a good margin on GWS at Canberra. Does that not count? The goal posts move all over the shop.

The way I see it is you have a non-quantifiable view as to why you don't like him and you want to apply the evidence to fit your narrative. That is exactly why you sound like 95% of BF posters. It's totally fine not to like him, but that is not the same as him not being able to coach.

Well that's the way you see it then.

Put away North, that's North, not exactly having the best of years. GWS result surprised me to be sure. Lost winnable games against Adelaide, Richmond and Essendon. Not exactly setting the world on fire most of the time with the scores we've kicked. Our two latest games we ended up grinding out wins.

I'm not sure how this is unquantifiable. We still usually aren't kicking big scores, or even breaking 100 points. I've possibly said in this forum that he can't coach, look it up if you want to. An intemperate remark to be sure and not one to be taken seriously. He's not the coach I want though, and I don't think his style is very effective any more.

Not sure where I'm applying evidence to fit my narrative there.
 

Freomaniac

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freo spin cycle turned up full throttle

luckily freo supporters believe anything Lyon spouts
They still believe Lachie Neale left solely because of money..lol

serious head in the sand stuff
Besides Seeing West coast winning, you get your rocks off seeing Fellow freo supporters verbally tea bag each other, tough man tony abbott style:)
 

master bate

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I really like Freo's backline, which is why it's a shame Pearce is now out. But the combined defensive abilities of Pearce, Hamling, Ryan, Hughes and even Duman who's going well plus the rebound of Wilson, it's looking good there.

The forward line clearly needs more work both in terms of function and talent. Walters and Fyfe would ideally be playing a fair bit forward. Lobb probably too. Matera as a number 1 goal scorer is not ideal. The dangerous goal kickers or assist guys just aren't there, so all things considered I think they are doing a good job.

What Ross and Co have got from the Freo midfield has really impressed me. Lobb's a good player but I don't particularly rate him as a starting ruck and he's done well. Fyfe is Fyfe. But after that Mundy has turned back the clock. Walters is super impressive given he's really doing double duty as a mid and forward. Conca is doing his role. Without starring Cerra and Brayshaw have at least avoided the 2nd year blues for now. Blakely is back. Then Langdon and Hill who are probably the best part of the Freo side (Fyfe excluded) are killing it. It's still a good effort to put up a strong midfield with Fyfe + outside runners + a Mundy renaissance.

There needs to be cleaner ball movement and some more winners up forward, which is true of almost every side. But Freo are spreading well and pressing well and that's the majority of what footy is these days. It doesn't always end up in scoring but at least Freo look like a competent team. After a few years of rebuilding I get the expectation will be for that as a bare minimum but these things always take time.

The amount of mature talent Freo has got in during this rebuild shows you: 1. They needed it, the list was pretty stuffed. 2. They lost a number of handy players leaving - Neale, Crozier, Weller. 3. They took a few bad chances (so far anyway). In reality they haven't had a heap of draft picks, certainly not the concentrated bunch of top 25 picks you'd expect from a side going the full rebuild. Cerra and Brayshaw right now are the shining gems from the rebuild, everything else has been shuffling more experienced players plus giving kids a go and getting back to a solid side. For Freo to really progress I think it will still be a matter of nailing some draft picks and seeing that talent come through. That means patience for fans and patience for Ross.
 

Vintage

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Lyon having a coffee with Silvagni in Lygon St is cringeworthy stuff, like he doesn't know it's going to be seen and reported. Seriously. It's a transparent attempt to intimidate his own club in to signing him up for longer.

Now watch the freo board fall for it and offer him a further contract extension with big $$.
Yep, that’s exactly why they caught up on Lygon st. It’s not like SOS has anything better to do with his time.
 

Freomaniac

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Yes, I suppose there was nothing wrong with the selection policies from 2014-2016.

Did you know we were the older and more experienced side in every game we played in 2016? What was the deal with that? How did we only win 4 games?
I look at Freos 2015 side, It was similar to Geelongs 2014 side. Both teams got top 4, both teams got 17 wins and both teams won 7 games by 2 goals or less.

As far as Freos 2016 season is concerned, it was nothing short of a Fluke. Every thing went wrong.

Yeah the cold hard win and loss record said we went 0-10 but freo lost a few games by 20-35 points. We ended up 4-18. Freo were way better than the 4 wins we posted in 2016. People forget we lost to GWS and Geelong by 3 goals and both made the prelim finals. I am still bitter about the 2016 season. We should of got 6-8 wins, not 4. Had freo got 13-15 wins in 2015 then got 6-8 wins in 2016, then you could say there was the gradual slide.

We were crippled with injuries and shot with confidence after that infamous Carlton loss in round 5.

Now the stats say Freo were averaging 73 points a game conceding 96 in 2016. In 2017, it was slightly worse and it was 72 points a game and conceding 98 points and we got 8 wins.

What was the difference?

In 2016, Freo were constantly losing by 20-40 points a week. Yet freos 4 wins was an 83 point win to Brisbane, a 78 point win vs Essendon at home, a 16 point win to Port at home and a 20 point win to the dogs at home.

Meanwhile in 2017, Freo were 6-4 after 10 games. Why? Because we lost Heavily away by 60-100 points one week then win by 15-30 points at home the next. We only won 2 more games due to injuries and playing more kids. Freo had their fare share of close games in 2017. Freo could of won as few as 5 games or could of won as much as 10-12 games.

Yep we lost to Port in Adelaide in round 2 yet won Narrowly Beat the dogs by 16 points 6 days later.

I rather be 8-14 than 4-18 any day of the week.

2018, we were averaging 70 points a game, conceding 92. Still got the 8 wins. Yeah we had 9 games where we lost by 50 points or more. 4 of them came in the 1st 14 rounds. the last 5 game in the last 8 games of the season. Again, due to injuries to experienced players and playing youth.


Its 2019 and Freo are 6-5, I wish it was 8-3.
 

Joao

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Well that's the way you see it then.

Put away North, that's North, not exactly having the best of years. GWS result surprised me to be sure. Lost winnable games against Adelaide, Richmond and Essendon. Not exactly setting the world on fire most of the time with the scores we've kicked. Our two latest games we ended up grinding out wins.

I'm not sure how this is unquantifiable. We still usually aren't kicking big scores, or even breaking 100 points. I've possibly said in this forum that he can't coach, look it up if you want to. An intemperate remark to be sure and not one to be taken seriously. He's not the coach I want though, and I don't think his style is very effective any more.

Not sure where I'm applying evidence to fit my narrative there.
So if North don't count, how do you decide which teams do? Do we discount every team that has only flogged someone in the bottom half of the table?

You are making assertions about how he can't win flags because his game style isn't effective. Since we can't use the past anymore as you have arbitrarily decided that doesn't count, what metrics are you using to judge? Is it literally just "we can't put teams away" or is there more to it?

Can you point to any data that backs up your assertion? All you have is statements about why you think he can't win a flag. The output of the team currently suggests you are wrong given where we sit, who we have beaten and the age demographic of the list.

If your claim is that you need to kick big score or break 100 points, you need to show evidence as to why that is true. Do you understand how arbitrary 100 points is? Why does it carry any significance? Why not 96 points or 103?

Disclaimer is: I don't remotely think we are winning a flag this year, but I see no reason why, with the way we are now trending that we can't in the future. Despite you claiming it is irrelevant, the past suggests Ross' teams can kick 90+ points on average which is more than enough based on the competition this year.
 
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theGav56

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I really like Freo's backline, which is why it's a shame Pearce is now out. But the combined defensive abilities of Pearce, Hamling, Ryan, Hughes and even Duman who's going well plus the rebound of Wilson, it's looking good there.

The forward line clearly needs more work both in terms of function and talent. Walters and Fyfe would ideally be playing a fair bit forward. Lobb probably too. Matera as a number 1 goal scorer is not ideal. The dangerous goal kickers or assist guys just aren't there, so all things considered I think they are doing a good job.

What Ross and Co have got from the Freo midfield has really impressed me. Lobb's a good player but I don't particularly rate him as a starting ruck and he's done well. Fyfe is Fyfe. But after that Mundy has turned back the clock. Walters is super impressive given he's really doing double duty as a mid and forward. Conca is doing his role. Without starring Cerra and Brayshaw have at least avoided the 2nd year blues for now. Blakely is back. Then Langdon and Hill who are probably the best part of the Freo side (Fyfe excluded) are killing it. It's still a good effort to put up a strong midfield with Fyfe + outside runners + a Mundy renaissance.

There needs to be cleaner ball movement and some more winners up forward, which is true of almost every side. But Freo are spreading well and pressing well and that's the majority of what footy is these days. It doesn't always end up in scoring but at least Freo look like a competent team. After a few years of rebuilding I get the expectation will be for that as a bare minimum but these things always take time.

The amount of mature talent Freo has got in during this rebuild shows you: 1. They needed it, the list was pretty stuffed. 2. They lost a number of handy players leaving - Neale, Crozier, Weller. 3. They took a few bad chances (so far anyway). In reality they haven't had a heap of draft picks, certainly not the concentrated bunch of top 25 picks you'd expect from a side going the full rebuild. Cerra and Brayshaw right now are the shining gems from the rebuild, everything else has been shuffling more experienced players plus giving kids a go and getting back to a solid side. For Freo to really progress I think it will still be a matter of nailing some draft picks and seeing that talent come through. That means patience for fans and patience for Ross.
Pretty fair analysis.

Devestated that Pearce is injured, and while their is no bright side to that I think the club needs to look at Logue's development now that he has recovered from injury. With Pearce that would mean as the third tall, whereas now he has the challenge of a genuine KPD.

The forward line will take some time just as the defence took some time. It is difficult to even lock in our preferred structure there at this point because they have not had the luxury of being available at the same time, and none of the talls have been in consistent form. Darcy into the ruck moves Lobb into the forward line, which is a huge change there. I think he is the best forward/2nd ruck in the comp, so at the moment he is a big loss due to having to ruck fulltime. Plus Taberner out is damaging. In development we do have Sturt as a medium tall, and that is exactly what we need, plus Liam Henry wil come next year from our NGA. The Harley Bennell dream is still flickering.

The capacity to better convert our forward entries is apparent. I think the forward line will become significantly more productive very quickly, and expect big improvements by this time next season, which is spot on the clubs advertised rebuild time-frame of 2020.
 

theGav56

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But you said if they have flair he crushes it. You talk bullcrap;)
Quite a the few nay-sayers simply spout the old mantras, which only reveals that they don't actually watch games. The team is playing with a lot more flair this season compared to last and it is clear to see where the game plan is taking us. But the mantras about the "game plan" are still retold around the fires of the Neanderthals in our midst who have not evolved.
 
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