Kevin kosnerconomics at its most horrendous. The punters aren't asking for it and the corporates and the professional leagues that want it aren't paying for it....moronic
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Future Developments of Sydney Stadiums
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Kevin kosnerconomics at its most horrendous. The punters aren't asking for it and the corporates and the professional leagues that want it aren't paying for it....moronic
Never said I was for or against the stadiums, I was just stating what I believe to be the big ticket items for each stadium, adding to another previous post.
What out of that list is dubious?
-Using 2/3rds as a threshold, the two wallabies internationals just snuck in this year
-socceroos internationals: many have fallen way short of 2/3rds....probably two over the last 4 years ex asian cup have got 2/3rds
-rugby 7s....perhaps 2/3rds full on the final day
-sydney derby (anz)...has got one crowds of 60k and one of 40 odd....we get another data point this week
The "european football teams playing a league teams" cost the government a mint to make happen and they are clearly not sustainable
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Ned_Flanders
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dont be a dick
im not the one asking for 80k oval stadiums for afl to grow to its potential
im saying that stadiums with poor facilities and poor corp arrangements keep the theatre goers away. that is most of the sydney market, and if you dont cater for them no s**t they stay at the pub
you really should get to a few NRL/HAL games in sydney, its very different to melbourne, something you seem to struggle with
The thing about all these events is that the existing stadia are more than adequate. Sydney won't lose any of them if the new venues don't get built, and most importantly they probably won't get any extra major events if they do. No act capable of filling 40,000+ seats is going to skip Sydney on an Australian tour.
The argument that they're going to increase crowds is also hugely flawed. When these venues were state of the art Sydney crowds were still s**t. For instance, in 1988 when the SFS opened, the average crowd for the 22 NSWRL regular season games played there was 9816. It took until 2009 to have a year where it averaged over 15k. 20 year lag time for the new stadium bump eh? Stadium Australia (as it was known then) generally only hosted occasional big games and double headers in the years after the Olympics, but it only had average crowds of about 20k. The first year of regular games was 2006 and it averaged 15k, roughly the same as the suburban grounds. There was no crowd bump back then, what makes anyone think it would be significant this time? The new stadia would almost certainly be just as empty as the current ones are now.
That's not very nice
Who is? The AFL has a good suite of stadiums that are commensurate to the crowds it pulls. I'm not the one completely delusional that somehow you build new stadiums in the same spot and, wala, big crowds for sports that used to go crap crowds
OK. And you think the solution is the government spend $2B plus knocking down and rebuilding two stadiums that will be hardly ever full and that - and this is the best bit - rather than contributing to the investment - the professional sports that play at SFS will be compensated for their troubles while they get a free state of the art stadium built for them that they'll rarely fill
It is moronic.
What do I struggle with? I am fully aware its harder to get around in Sydney. I'm not sure how this supports this taxpayer funded "white elephant herd" stadium boondoggle
Ned_Flanders
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100% agree no more white elephants, thats what brought us anz
But its ridiculous to say no development at all
Anz is a poorly designed stadium, and it fails to meet the needs of any of it tenants adequately. It should be replaced, only question is with what
On sfs, my understanding is the structural issues made refurb cost prohibitive. Not an engineer, so im taking their word on that
Out of interest, what matchrs/events have you seen first hand at anz and sfs?
Been to ANZ 3 times (twice football once olympics), haven't been to SFS.
You don't need to have to hold a view on this, of course. To suggest that "punters and corps" at professsional sporting events would prefer new state of the art stadia over moderately aged stadia is to state the obvious. To put it up as an argument to knock down 17 and 30 year old stadiums for $2B plus is ludicrous
In terms of "ANZ should be replaced" nobody has made a credible argument , certainly not you. To say it doesn't meet the needs of its "tenants", and to think that holds as a business case to spend $1B, suggests you should stick to engineering (youre likely more qualified at that)...
And on that note, what is "your understanding" actually based on that makes a refurb of sfs cost prohibitive? When you say you'll take "their" word for it, who is "their"? Perhaps you have a link to the engineering concern's assessment? Or have you just swallowed some bullshit from a disaster of a government decision and, rather ridiculously, trying to present it as an objective technical opinion?
In terms on our apparent agreement of "no more white elephants", the one rolled-gold guaranteed way of building white elephants is to knock down old ones and build new ones in their place.
Ned_Flanders
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people dont go to anz unless its a really good game from my experience. the sightlines are poor, getting in and out is awful, no outside food and bev outside one joint, food in the stadium is poorly placed and difficult to get to, and the stadium is far too big for rectangular sports (which it is mainly used for)
havent done the corp there, but from mates who have they say its pretty poor, and they prefer to send clients to other venues where they have better facilities
the lack of refurb on corp and seating and some of the food can be overcome. the poor access in and out of the stadium, it being too big for rectangular events, and the shitty views cannot. people of sydney hate the place
on sfs, im going off what the trust is saying and what the media has reported. also are you seriously asking me to only have an opinion if i have the engineering report? if thats the case you really have jumped the shark and should probably not post on forums. even in places like skyscrapercity most people dont have access to confidential information like that
Never said anything about crowds. Those are the events I believe to be the big ticket items for both stadiums.
Agree with the Wallabies crowds this year were disappointing, but the 3 games before this year have all had crowds above 42k. Including 45k last year vs England.
Agree with Socceroos crowds can be either way at both stadiums, but only a couple weeks ago 77k turn up to the final WCQ.
Im not sold on rebuilding 2 stadiums, I would refurbish/upgrade SFS, once Parramatta Stadium is completed. Even time it right with the light rail opening.
Once those 2 major stadiums are up and running, then look at what you want to do with Stadium Australia.
2/3 is your suggested threshold, how does the G stack up on your measure even just AFL footy?
https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/vn_mcg.html
Not for those with the attention span of a pissant, there is a good outline of the whole Stadiums issue in the Fairfax press today:
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-sydney-stadium-wars-how-did-we-get-here-20171207-h014te.html
Too much politics.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-sydney-stadium-wars-how-did-we-get-here-20171207-h014te.html
Too much politics.
Pretty, pretty well
There were 13 crowds over 66k and the 50 games there averaged 54k overall.
Add Boxing Day, big bash, 20/20s and whatever one offs major events Victoria are splurging on and you're pretty close to 20
So 13 crowds exceeded your 2/3, is that what you are saying?
50 games at the venue & less than 1/3 meet your criteria, what are you trying to say?
AFL footy crowds at the G are fine IMHO, even when the stadium is half full.
I used 2/3rds full as a proxy measure of "fullness" and suggested that each of those 5 viable oval stadiums hit that 20 plus times each year. I'd don't know what your pseuedo intellectual line of interrogation is getting at?
Obviously the 2/3rds threshold is pretty arbitrary and makes it harder to achieve. As it is, the aggregate AFL crowds at the MCG comfortably exceed the combined total of all sporting events at those two Sydney stadiums.
RedV3x
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Then they should put on decent attractions like Australian Football that pull in the punters and sponsors.
RussellEbertHandball
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A bit of the SCG Trust reasoning for why a knock down is better than a refurbishment of the SFS. They are biased and they want a new stadium but I have been intrigued as to why the reasons that the refurbe was so expensive. A recent FAQ from the SCG Trust.
https://www.sydneyfc.com/sites/syd/files/2017-11/Key partner stadium Q&A .pdf
Why can’t you just fix up Allianz Stadium?
Much like renovating an old house, renovating the existing stadium means living with some of the compromises that hamper the existing structure. The simple fact is that it is even more expensive to renovate Allianz Stadium to a world-class standard and ensure that it serves the sporting public of Sydney for more than a few more years.
I’ve read about the safety and compliance issues at Allianz Stadium, why hasn’t the Trust maintained the facility properly?
The Trust has spent more than $330 million maintaining and improving Allianz Stadium over the past three decades. The stadium was built to the building standards of the day, which hadn’t been reviewed since 1908. Allianz Stadium has always been operated as a safe venue, but the reality is that in today’s world, it doesn’t comply with modern building codes and standards. For instance, Allianz Stadium is not compliant with the earthquake code brought in after the Newcastle earthquake of 1989. Also, the building standards of the day mean that Allianz Stadium does not have any fire sprinklers. Regular attendees would be well aware of the stadium’s deficiencies in regard to food and beverage facilities as well as bathrooms.
https://www.sydneyfc.com/sites/syd/files/2017-11/Key partner stadium Q&A .pdf
This was the healthy and safety angle in August. These independent certifiers Blackett, Maguire and Goldsmith who issue the Certificate of Occupancy, say they can only guarantee the stadium should remain open for another three years. Wonder if that has been tested?
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...y/news-story/2ded59a0d7bb358dde69f3d3ae3d99de
But when the government doesn't release the costing which makes it suspicious.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-sydney-stadium-wars-how-did-we-get-here-20171207-h014te.html
The government quickly found itself in possession of alarming reports that the stadium, without major work, faced closure by the end of 2019. According to sources, the analysis showed Allianz required at least $140 million "just to keep the doors open" for three years beyond 2019, and then a further $360 million to bring it to full compliance. (The government has also refused to release this analysis).
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-sydney-stadium-wars-how-did-we-get-here-20171207-h014te.html
https://www.sydneyfc.com/sites/syd/files/2017-11/Key partner stadium Q&A .pdf
Why can’t you just fix up Allianz Stadium?
Much like renovating an old house, renovating the existing stadium means living with some of the compromises that hamper the existing structure. The simple fact is that it is even more expensive to renovate Allianz Stadium to a world-class standard and ensure that it serves the sporting public of Sydney for more than a few more years.
I’ve read about the safety and compliance issues at Allianz Stadium, why hasn’t the Trust maintained the facility properly?
The Trust has spent more than $330 million maintaining and improving Allianz Stadium over the past three decades. The stadium was built to the building standards of the day, which hadn’t been reviewed since 1908. Allianz Stadium has always been operated as a safe venue, but the reality is that in today’s world, it doesn’t comply with modern building codes and standards. For instance, Allianz Stadium is not compliant with the earthquake code brought in after the Newcastle earthquake of 1989. Also, the building standards of the day mean that Allianz Stadium does not have any fire sprinklers. Regular attendees would be well aware of the stadium’s deficiencies in regard to food and beverage facilities as well as bathrooms.
https://www.sydneyfc.com/sites/syd/files/2017-11/Key partner stadium Q&A .pdf
This was the healthy and safety angle in August. These independent certifiers Blackett, Maguire and Goldsmith who issue the Certificate of Occupancy, say they can only guarantee the stadium should remain open for another three years. Wonder if that has been tested?
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...y/news-story/2ded59a0d7bb358dde69f3d3ae3d99de
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...y/news-story/2ded59a0d7bb358dde69f3d3ae3d99de
But when the government doesn't release the costing which makes it suspicious.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-sydney-stadium-wars-how-did-we-get-here-20171207-h014te.html
The government quickly found itself in possession of alarming reports that the stadium, without major work, faced closure by the end of 2019. According to sources, the analysis showed Allianz required at least $140 million "just to keep the doors open" for three years beyond 2019, and then a further $360 million to bring it to full compliance. (The government has also refused to release this analysis).
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-sydney-stadium-wars-how-did-we-get-here-20171207-h014te.html
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RussellEbertHandball
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A good long article on the weekend in the SMH, the last one I quoted from above, that looks at the history of the 3 stadiums in Sydney, the politics involved and why the government has changed tack a few times over the last 5 years or so, and the influence of the powerful SCG Trust and in particular broadcaster Alan Jones in shaping the debate. Its a good read.
The Sydney stadium wars: how did we get here?
Twenty months ago, Mike Baird returned to Sydney from a weeklong trip to Israel and was immediately called on to broker a peace. In geopolitical terms, the furore that had erupted in the then premier's absence may not have been worth a column inch. But the Sydney headlines were blaring. Somehow, Baird's government was in crisis over $1.6 billion it was promising for Sydney stadiums. Baird's Sports Minister, Stuart Ayres, was accused of lying by some of the state's most powerful clubs. Those clubs said they would fight a stadium the government was promising to build for their benefit. What should have been a good news story had become a debacle. The situation needed fixing. And Baird fixed it - or so it seemed.
The day after Baird's return, sources told the Herald, he "hauled Ayres into his office" to discuss the matter. Ayres was seen exiting "with his tail between his legs." Within days, Baird announced a new policy that completely undercut Ayres' public arguments. Twenty months later Baird's successor, Gladys Berejiklian, is in a similar sort of bother. Baird's solution to the crisis that had reached a crescendo in his absence was, in the words of one adviser, to "follow the politics and the policy." That meant disappointing the powerful Sydney Cricket & Sports Ground Trust and its desire to build a new stadium to replace the 30-year-old Sydney Football Stadium, known as Allianz..........
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-sydney-stadium-wars-how-did-we-get-here-20171207-h014te.html
The Sydney stadium wars: how did we get here?
Twenty months ago, Mike Baird returned to Sydney from a weeklong trip to Israel and was immediately called on to broker a peace. In geopolitical terms, the furore that had erupted in the then premier's absence may not have been worth a column inch. But the Sydney headlines were blaring. Somehow, Baird's government was in crisis over $1.6 billion it was promising for Sydney stadiums. Baird's Sports Minister, Stuart Ayres, was accused of lying by some of the state's most powerful clubs. Those clubs said they would fight a stadium the government was promising to build for their benefit. What should have been a good news story had become a debacle. The situation needed fixing. And Baird fixed it - or so it seemed.
The day after Baird's return, sources told the Herald, he "hauled Ayres into his office" to discuss the matter. Ayres was seen exiting "with his tail between his legs." Within days, Baird announced a new policy that completely undercut Ayres' public arguments. Twenty months later Baird's successor, Gladys Berejiklian, is in a similar sort of bother. Baird's solution to the crisis that had reached a crescendo in his absence was, in the words of one adviser, to "follow the politics and the policy." That meant disappointing the powerful Sydney Cricket & Sports Ground Trust and its desire to build a new stadium to replace the 30-year-old Sydney Football Stadium, known as Allianz..........
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-sydney-stadium-wars-how-did-we-get-here-20171207-h014te.html
Says heaps about the complete lack of integrity of the political parties across Aus today & their rusted on cheerleaders that dance to their tune.
Ex Wallaby, Mr Lisa Wilkinson (not a fan) put his view:
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/the-fitz-files/exactly-why-are-we-spending-2-billion-on-new-stadiums-in-sydney-20171129-gzvcw3.html
Ex Wallaby, Mr Lisa Wilkinson (not a fan) put his view:
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/the-fitz-files/exactly-why-are-we-spending-2-billion-on-new-stadiums-in-sydney-20171129-gzvcw3.html
BulldogJake
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I'll take the basic concrete stadium over a flashy stadium like Aami Park any day.There is a solid case to refurbish and update the stadiums, but to demolish them and rebuild with something will also date and look tired in 20 years time? What ... will the NSW Government propose knocking those down too in 20 years time? It is far cheaper to perhaps deepen the ground at Homebush by perhaps 3 metres and push some extra rows of seats closer to the arena. Even replace all of the old seats in the stadium with newer ones, give the whole joint a fresh lick of paint, replace the all of the lighting with newer LED ones and revamp the concourses inside and around the stadium. Total cost for that likely to be around 400 million and suddenly you have a stadium that looks different and that is totally refreshed for a fraction of the money. There is still plenty of scope left then to give the SFS a similar make-over and plenty of dosh left after that to upgrade the NRL grounds around the city.
If we consider that 61 years ago when Melbourne hosted the Olympics, much of the turmoil preceeding the Games was over where to build the main stadium and who would control it. To build a new stadium at the time would have cost millions of pounds which the city could ill-afford. It took the intervention of the State Government then to rule that they would be held at the MCG. Today it seems like a no-brainer really, but at the time the Olympic Committee and the Atletics Association vainly wanted a shiney new stadium to showcase Australia to the world and not the clapped-out and dated looking MCG. But the Government won the day, the MCG got a bit of a facelift by constructing the old Olympic Stand. The moral of the story is that they did what needed to be done and not what vested interests tried to push them into. At the end of the day, the MCG will never go down as being the prettiest of Olympic Stadiums, but it was the best and most cost effective solution that didn't send Melbourne broke at the time. We can learn a lot from our history:
The NSW government would win far more brownie points allocating moneys to build new stands at Lavington in Albury, and at Robertson Oval in Wagga Wagga as well as upgrade some of the regional rugby grounds. It's about spreading the love around the whole state in which they govern, and not just appease the well-healed in Sydney's East or the vested interests of the NRL Board.
Your post is spot on thought. NSW government should be refurbishing suburban and regional ground and giving ANZ and Allianz facelifts, a bit like the Victorian Government has been doing over the last decade.
Allianz: heard Tony Shepherd on why it needs demoltion. He said its a 1980s facility that will cost more to do up than a demo/rebuild. Take his knowledge over yours any day Jake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Shepherd_(businessman)
RussellEbertHandball
Flick pass expert
If the NSW government was smart they will build a new SFS 50k stadium, but piss off the SCG Trust and build it somewhere else to make it closer to the cbd or more importantly transport.
The yanks would have built a new stadium where Barangaroo is, ie where the wharfs and docks were at the Hungry Mile area and made it an integrated stadium, apartments, casino, and parks inner city revitalization project.
Ian Dunross
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It's almost as if he has a vested interest in getting a brand new free $600 million stadium...
Bit like the MCC/MCG Trust is the SCG Trust, i.e the preferred beneficiary of State Govt largesse, & its not party political.
As Giants el supremo, Tony Shepherd is not in this argument for any self gain. Vested interest, thats a long bow!
Ian Dunross
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You do know he's Chairman of the SCG Trust...
