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Future Draft/Trading Strategy

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Ugene41

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Sep 21, 2004
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Collingwood
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Collingwood
After probably the darkest trading period in the Pies history and the seemingly increasing trend of salary dumps and free agency, we need a complete revamp of our trading and drafting strategy going forward. I'm going to avoid discussion of our incompetent list management team and administration in this thread and purely focus on what I think the blueprint for success should be for the Pies from a strategy perspective.

Salary dump trades
This trade period has just highlighted how important salary cap space is. We were obviously the worst example but plenty of other clubs also had to shed players for even cheaper. E.g. Alex Witherden (who just lost the rising star to Stephenson) traded for picks in the 60s, Peter Wright who was a best 22 CHF apart from 2020 for a future 4th. They just didn't have to shed 3 players in a fire sale all at once. Cap space can get you just as much trade return as high draft picks. We were obviously on the losing end (massively) this time, but hopefully we'll be smart enough to take advantage of these opportunities in the future

Free agency
The salary dump trade is basically an extension of free agency. It's both an opportunity to acquire gun players for no trade capital (e.g. Lynch, Frawley, Franklin) or a way to mess up your cap by spending big on highly replaceable role players (e.g. 30+ y.o. Wells, Mayne, Clinton Young). We've obviously gone down the latter route this decade but going forward, we should only use Free Agency to make big money offers to big name players that would be too expensive to acquire through a trade.

No one is worth paying 2x first rounders for
We obviously didn't learn from a Treloar trade and went ahead and did it again with Beams. It's basically wasted 5 years of first round picks. Thank god we had Quaynor come through as an academy pick. We're not the only examples either. Jake Lever, Tim Kelly, Dylan Shiel, O'Meara - I don't think any of those clubs improved with these acquisitions. The max we should ever pay in terms of a trade for a star should be a first and a second. Similar to the price paid for Neale, Tom Mitchell and Dangerfield. Those were good acquisitions. Essendon were smart enough to learn from Shiel to not pay the same again for Dunkley. I can see the Cameron trade coming back to bite Geelong having paid so much in draft capital plus still having a free agency style size of contract hanging.

Build through the draft
In the last 2 decades, Collingwood has never successfully attracted a big fish from another club and the one that we did (Treloar), we've now completely botched it. Our 2010 premiership was built off the back of great drafting plus 2 smart acquisitions of Jolly and Ball where we didn't overpay. We're not Hawthorn/Geelong. We shouldn't be trying to trade for success. I would also argue that their model is flawed as their premiership success was built off their great drafts in the early 2000's. I'm also of the view that their current strategy will leave them in a world of pain for a decade whilst failing to win them a premiership in the last 5 years.

Target player for player trades
These provide the most value in terms of bringing in a player of need without sacrificing additional cap space or giving up draft picks. We've done the best out of these trades in the last decade with Adams for Shaw, Howe for Kennedy/Seedsman and Varcoe for Lumumba.

Build around generational and structurally important players
We should be following the Richmond model where they focus on a core group of elite talent and just have replaceable role players around them that play to the system. That means everyone is expendable apart from the core 4-5 and if those role players start shopping around and ask for a higher contract offer than what you're willing to pay, you trade them for picks and give the younger talent an opportunity to take those spots and develop. For us, that core irreplaceable group still in their prime would be Grundy, Moore, JDG and Adams (more so for his leadership rather than output). You pay these players whatever it takes to keep them as it's difficult to find players who could ever match their abilities. If we had taken this approach, we would have traded Langdon, Cox, Elliott when they were looking around. We would have gotten much higher draft picks in return, avoided having to force out players that want to stay like Treloar/Stephenson creating player angst and managed our salary cap much better.

As much as it hurts giving up Treloar and Stephenson for 1 late first round pick, they are replaceable. I'm still optimistic of our core playing list but we need to get much smarter. I was going to avoid comment of our administration but getting smarter would mean changes all the way from Eddie down. I can't imagine our current administration being able to pivot and execute this new strategy. Too many burnt bridges in the club and in the industry. The only person I would keep would be Hine and his recruiting team to help us build around the draft again.
 
I’m hearing a lot of “our salary cap is fixed now”, but we’re likely paying a stack of dead cap to Beams, Langdon and Treloar now for at least another year and possibly longer.

We are a worse side than than the Bulldogs who just gained Treloar for a pick they didn’t want, they still have Naughton while we lost Stevo, and they effectively have a COLA allowance because we’re paying Treloar to play for them.

2021 is a write-off. It should be spent finding out who is worth keeping out of;
Brown
Brown
Sier
Rantall
Bianco
Murphy
Wilson
Keane
Kelly
Ruscoe

Pendles and Sidebottom aren’t going to be winning any more flags.

We have a small core group of players to build on after giving Stevo away;
Maynard
Quaynor
Moore
Crisp
Daicos
Adams
Grundy
De Goey

... which puts us a mile behind teams who’ve had the advantage of a million draft picks in the last decade. And how are we going to get back on level terms? By “replenishing” with picks 14 and 16 which will end up 18 and 20 or so.

It’s a trainwreck.
 
After probably the darkest trading period in the Pies history and the seemingly increasing trend of salary dumps and free agency, we need a complete revamp of our trading and drafting strategy going forward. I'm going to avoid discussion of our incompetent list management team and administration in this thread and purely focus on what I think the blueprint for success should be for the Pies from a strategy perspective.

I liked particularly how you dealt with the current situation realistically.
 

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2021 is a write-off. It should be spent finding out who is worth keeping out of;
Brown
Brown
Sier
Rantall
Bianco
Murphy
Wilson
Keane
Kelly
Ruscoe

I think this is the exciting part though. These players absolutely need an opportunity. Hopefully replaces the Phillips, Varcoe, Reid, Greenwood, Thomas and Mayne spots that were taken up this year


We have a small core group of players to build on after giving Stevo away;
Maynard
Quaynor
Moore
Crisp
Daicos
Adams
Grundy
De Goey

... which puts us a mile behind teams who’ve had the advantage of a million draft picks in the last decade. And how are we going to get back on level terms? By “replenishing” with picks 14 and 16 which will end up 18 and 20 or so.

It’s a trainwreck.

Stevo is one player and whilst it's a loss (which isn't that much if you're comparing against 2020 output), it's the point I was trying to make that you only need 4-5 elite core players. The rest are replaceable role players. You have to remember, when you lose a best 22 player, you're not losing his complete output. You're losing the incremental output between him and the other player that comes in to replace him. So unless you're an absolute A-grade talent, the incremental difference is often marginal. In fact, most clubs that lose a key player often doesn't feel it. Look at Geelong this year after losing Tim Kelly who's better than Treloar - improved and made the GF. It meant players like Cam Guthrie and Menegola were able to step up instead.

I think the one thing we have going for us that has helped us replenish talent is our access to father sons and NGAs. Matt Rendell (despite being a disgruntled ex-employee) does a good analysis of our list and young kids in particular https://player.whooshkaa.com/episode?id=756237. Super positive still even without Stephenson/Treloar/Phillips.
 
Collingwood’s strategy pay massive overs for players we trade in and accept unders for players we trade out.

If you're talking about yesterday, then I think they had to accept what they could get. The 3 players that they traded were supposedly overpaid...at least from the figures stated in the forums etc. Tom Phillips, for example, might have been traded for a higher pick, but he was contracted for another year on a high salary.
 
I think the one thing we have going for us that has helped us replenish talent is our access to father sons and NGAs. Matt Rendell (despite being a disgruntled ex-employee) does a good analysis of our list and young kids in particular https://player.whooshkaa.com/episode?id=756237. Super positive still even without Stephenson/Treloar/Phillips.

If we draft well, we can run the richmond model. You like Derek but he has shown a preference for players who were injured during or before their draft years....and I think there's a strong connection with our injury list
 
Stevo is one player and whilst it's a loss (which isn't that much if you're comparing against 2020 output), it's the point I was trying to make that you only need 4-5 elite core players. The rest are replaceable role players. You have to remember, when you lose a best 22 player, you're not losing his complete output. You're losing the incremental output between him and the other player that comes in to replace him.
No disrespect intended, but if you’re saying that on 2020 form Stevo’s loss isn’t much, you’d also have to say that Grundy is just an average ruckman. You can’t have it both ways.

On that basis who are our “elite core players” of whom you only need 5 or 6? I’d say Moore, Grundy if fit, with Maynard and Adams a rung below. We have a lot of ground to make up to create a premiership team.
 
For us, that core irreplaceable group still in their prime would be Grundy, Moore, JDG and Adams (more so for his leadership rather than output). You pay these players whatever it takes to keep them as it's difficult to find players who could ever match their abilities.

Thats a good core group of players. I noticed that you included grundy.
 
No disrespect intended, but if you’re saying that on 2020 form Stevo’s loss isn’t much, you’d also have to say that Grundy is just an average ruckman. You can’t have it both ways.

On that basis who are our “elite core players” of whom you only need 5 or 6? I’d say Moore, Grundy if fit, with Maynard and Adams a rung below. We have a lot of ground to make up to create a premiership team.

Grundy is a bit of a victim of his high standards. He had a great start to the year then hub life and the lack of rest between games got to him and he dropped off. As can be seen in his BnF results where he still came 7th. Across the comp he was still one of the premier ruckman behind NicNat/Gawn and on par with Goldstein this year. People like to blame his 7 year deal for our issues at the moment but I have no issues with that. If anything, his down year this year highlights how important he is to the side. Our rise in 2018 coincided with him taking the step up to being the premier ruckman in the league. He's basically the barometer for our side.

In terms of core group for our next flag challenge, it will have to be driven by Grundy, Moore, JDG, Adams, Maynard. Basically the draft class of 2011-2014. Richmond's recent dominance has been driven by their draft class of 2006-2010 (Martin, Riewoldt, Rance/Astbury, Cotchin, Lynch). So rather than seeing our flag window closing, I can see it opening up in the next few years if our 2018-2020 draft class (Quaynor/Kelly/Reef etc) can come on quickly and provide a similar impact as the Sidebottoms/Beams of 08 class did in 2010.
 
In terms of core group for our next flag challenge, it will have to be driven by Grundy, Moore, JDG, Adams, Maynard. Basically the draft class of 2011-2014. Richmond's recent dominance has been driven by their draft class of 2006-2010 (Martin, Riewoldt, Rance/Astbury, Cotchin, Lynch). So rather than seeing our flag window closing, I can see it opening up in the next few years if our 2018-2020 draft class (Quaynor/Kelly/Reef etc) can come on quickly and provide a similar impact as the Sidebottoms/Beams of 08 class did in 2010.

i re-read your post and you didnt say that Stevo's loss wasn't much. You just put him outside that core group. Certainly, his 2018 form was better than a richmond role player like Daniel Rioli...
 

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I’m hearing a lot of “our salary cap is fixed now”, but we’re likely paying a stack of dead cap to Beams, Langdon and Treloar now for at least another year and possibly longer.

We are a worse side than than the Bulldogs who just gained Treloar for a pick they didn’t want, they still have Naughton while we lost Stevo, and they effectively have a COLA allowance because we’re paying Treloar to play for them.

2021 is a write-off. It should be spent finding out who is worth keeping out of;
Brown
Brown
Sier
Rantall
Bianco
Murphy
Wilson
Keane
Kelly
Ruscoe

Pendles and Sidebottom aren’t going to be winning any more flags.

We have a small core group of players to build on after giving Stevo away;
Maynard
Quaynor
Moore
Crisp
Daicos
Adams
Grundy
De Goey

... which puts us a mile behind teams who’ve had the advantage of a million draft picks in the last decade. And how are we going to get back on level terms? By “replenishing” with picks 14 and 16 which will end up 18 and 20 or so.

It’s a trainwreck.

Surely at the cap issues are fixed now. If not, we dont trade anybody in, hit the draft again, stick with our core list which is strong albeit thin, the end of 2021 the retirements of Greenwood and Mayne and maybe one or two others will tidy up whatever other residual cap dramas we have.
 
I’m hearing a lot of “our salary cap is fixed now”, but we’re likely paying a stack of dead cap to Beams, Langdon and Treloar now for at least another year and possibly longer.

We are a worse side than than the Bulldogs who just gained Treloar for a pick they didn’t want, they still have Naughton while we lost Stevo, and they effectively have a COLA allowance because we’re paying Treloar to play for them.

2021 is a write-off. It should be spent finding out who is worth keeping out of;
Brown
Brown
Sier
Rantall
Bianco
Murphy
Wilson
Keane
Kelly
Ruscoe

Pendles and Sidebottom aren’t going to be winning any more flags.

We have a small core group of players to build on after giving Stevo away;
Maynard
Quaynor
Moore
Crisp
Daicos
Adams
Grundy
De Goey

... which puts us a mile behind teams who’ve had the advantage of a million draft picks in the last decade. And how are we going to get back on level terms? By “replenishing” with picks 14 and 16 which will end up 18 and 20 or so.

It’s a trainwreck.

We’ve smashed the Bulldogs last 3 times haven’t we?


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We’ve smashed the Bulldogs last 3 times haven’t we?
The point I was making was that our salary cap, in a time when everyone’s cap is shrinking, is effectively smaller than the other clubs because we are paying dead cap to Langdon, Beams and Treloar. We have also lost Treloar and Stephenson’s on-field output.

The Bulldogs, by contrast, have a larger cap than the rest of the league, because one of their players is getting paid by another club (us).
 
If we package our picks 14 and 16 to move up the order it will tell us a lot about how much we rate McInnes. I would like to see a move up the order either way. It will be a tough draft to pick given the COVID impact on the junior competition.

I would not trade next years pick as it will likely be earlier than we’d like to admit. Save it next year for Josh Kelly
 
If there were cap problems it's unlikely to have been to the extent of wages lost through this trade period. Is it possible that we may be able to front end some contracts in 2021 or pay less than 100% of the cap? Langdon and Beams' wage will almost certainly be off the books in 2022. Cox is reportedly spreading his wage too. Obviously there will be pay rises to existing players, but conceivably we could have at least 1.5 to 2 million spare for 2022. That's a big war chest.

Finally someone at the club admitted that these trades were a "strategy" and the club wants to be at the "pointy end of the draft" and in a position to "compete for out of contract talent". CEO Mark Anderson at the end of this interview (12:46).


There's a nice list of names who are free agents at the end of 2021. Some may have re-signed in the subsequent months. Full list in the link, including some who would be a good fit, but Cripps, Merrett, Kelly, Sheed and Bontempelli stand out even if some are no chance. Obviously there's also out of contract players who aren't yet free agents and we currently have a 2021 first that we won't use.




Wages:

Treloar 600k, Stephenson 500k, Phillips 500k, Scharenberg 300k, Beams 400k, Langdon 500k

* figures are a guess based off media reports
 
If there were cap problems it's unlikely to have been to the extent of wages lost through this trade period. Is it possible that we may be able to front end some contracts in 2021 or pay less than 100% of the cap? Langdon and Beams' wage will almost certainly be off the books in 2022. Cox is reportedly spreading his wage too. Obviously there will be pay rises to existing players, but conceivably we could have at least 1.5 to 2 million spare for 2022. That's a big war chest.
It’s possible but as that information isn’t made public we don’t know.

Rendell said in his interview after trade week that after 2021, Pendles and Sidebottom are no longer on big money, so that might help us build a “war chest”... although I hate that term and I hate the overpaying of free agents it implies. If our targets were of a higher calibre than Mayne for $500kpa I might feel differently.
 

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I would not trade next years pick as it will likely be earlier than we’d like to admit. Save it next year for Josh Kelly
If we still have it at trade week next year, we lose leverage because clubs will know we have to get rid of it or risk wasting it. I don’t know how people feel about Ned Guy having another fire sale...?

Having said that, there should be no shortage of competition to bring in a first round pick as opposed to a player on a bad contract, so we should be able to get a respectable deal.
 
If we still have it at trade week next year, we lose leverage because clubs will know we have to get rid of it or risk wasting it. I don’t know how people feel about Ned Guy having another fire sale...?

Having said that, there should be no shortage of competition to bring in a first round pick as opposed to a player on a bad contract, so we should be able to get a respectable deal.
Depends if it’s a high end pick and we are poaching a high end player clubs will take it because they have no choice...if we are proposing to do what Guy is trying this year...hey guys we have some picks that we don’t need can someone help us out to get further up the draft order...then yeah we’ll be bent over.
 
Giving away all those second rounders with treloar fmd... so we have pick 14 and 16. We want first rounders but then How do we cover a bid for reef? What’s our next pick? 65 (90pts) and 70 (39pts). So 129pts....

even if reef somehow falls past pick 16, where do we find points for him? Reports I’ve read have him 15-25ish. Knowing our luck likely pick 10.

I’m no expert but the only sense I can make is the club believes reef will go top 10 now, and we wanted 14 for this scenario? 🤷‍♂️
 
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Giving away all those second rounders with treloar fmd... so we have pick 14 and 16. We want first rounders but then How do we cover a bid for reef? What’s our next pick? 65 (90pts) and 70 (39pts). So 129pts....

even if reef somehow falls past pick 16, where do we find points for him? Reports I’ve read have him 15-25ish. Knowing our luck likely pick 10.

I’m no expert but the only sense I can make is the club believes reef will go top 10 now, and we wanted 14 for this scenario? 🤷‍♂️
I am convinced we are in a bad position pick wise. Should have organised the pick swaps during the trade period, we have no leverage now.
 
No disrespect intended, but if you’re saying that on 2020 form Stevo’s loss isn’t much, you’d also have to say that Grundy is just an average ruckman. You can’t have it both ways.

On that basis who are our “elite core players” of whom you only need 5 or 6? I’d say Moore, Grundy if fit, with Maynard and Adams a rung below. We have a lot of ground to make up to create a premiership team.
the only difference here is that Grundy has consistenly proven year in year out that his elite and even his form drop off was probably still in the top 8 rucks going around just our expectations are so high of him. Stevo whilst he had a good year in 2018 is still yet to show that he can consistently do it week in week out, year in year out.
 

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