Go Rob!

[Crow Envy]

Hence why Im asking C98 why Shirley will improve but Massie wont??? Hence why I say the rebuild has already begun and we wont win the flag this year, maybe this makes my reasoning a little clearer.

But thats why I am also saying we have nothing to lose by giving Douglas, Knights etc more game time. They might have gun years and prove the difference. Massie wont be the difference. Whilst we have Roo, Macca etc we need to take a punt.

 

[Crow Envy]

Kris Massie is just a glorified receiver who can break the lines and play his position; Robert Shirley is a player who has the ability to get in and under and win the hard ball. He is normally at the bottom of the packs and dishes it out to receiver like Massie can continue to break the line and help the transition from defense to offence.

We have quite a few receivers who can play Kris Massie position, we only 2 or 3 players who get on there hands and knees to win the hard ball at the bottom of packs like Robert Shirley does. That’s why Kris Massie could quite easily be expendable at the end of this season if other players step up.

Fair enough, but that doesnt explain why Shirley is now going to improve?

 

[maccas_no1]

Kris Massie is just a glorified receiver who can break the lines and play his position; Robert Shirley is a player who has the ability to get in and under and win the hard ball. He is normally at the bottom of the packs and dishes it out to receiver like Massie can continue to break the line and help the transition from defense to offence.

We have quite a few receivers who can play Kris Massie position, we only 2 or 3 players who get on there hands and knees to win the hard ball at the bottom of packs like Robert Shirley does. That’s why Kris Massie could quite easily be expendable at the end of this season if other players step up.

Thanks, that wasnt too hard was it now, thats all I wanted.

 

[maccas_no1]

But thats why I am also saying we have nothing to lose by giving Douglas, Knights etc more game time. They might have gun years and prove the difference. Massie wont be the difference. Whilst we have Roo, Macca etc we need to take a punt.

Yes I dont say thats not the way to go about it, but the AFC will not win a flag that is the beginning of the rebuild.

 

[maccas_no1]

Fair enough, but that doesnt explain why Shirley is now going to improve?

No it doesnt it just says Shirley plays a different roll to Massie.

 

[Alex99]

Fair enough, but that doesnt explain why Shirley is now going to improve?

Robert Shirley simply started his AFL career as a shocking tagger where he was very lucky to get a game and it got to the point of him being delisted at the end of 2002 (IIRC) and was re drafted under the Ayres regime.

Over the last few years he has excelled at his level of fitness allowing him to improve his run with qualities, his levels of concentration increased with confidence and this helped to be a very good run with player.

Over the last 18 months he has worked on the positive side of the game like clearances around stoppages and hard ball gets. He still has room to improve on in this area as well, that’s why I said he can still improve, If he can improve his goals kicking and consistently hitting targets, will help him immensely.

 

[NikkiNoo]

I dont miss a game so you can throw that one liner out.

Very Effective? That happened in maybe one game about 2-3 years ago, since then Judd has carved us up. But Shirleys reputation of being effective on Judd has carried on.

Crows games as well as other teams games? Although, just because people attend the games sometimes this does not mean that they actually understand what is happening out there.

Just because a player has a high possession count does not mean that they played well or their opponent did a bad job curtailing them. What needs to be taken into account is where the possessions were, how effective they actually were, etc. Someone mentioned Harvey in the 97 grandfinal, most of his possessions were 'allowed' by Blight to be in the back half although I do concede that the first tackle by McLeod on him in the first quarter that broke Harvey's ribs did help as well. Blight also used this theory / style of tagging for whenever we played Buckley - let him get his cheap possessions in the backhalf where he could do minimal damage.

Let's just say that the amount of negativity lately towards the players on our list from crows supporters I find to be downright annoying and makes me wonder if a lot of the posters on here actually understand the current game of football and the current structures that we have in place at the club?

 

[NikkiNoo]

last years results,

Rd 2 judd 23 possessions
Rd 17 judd 21 possessions (and he was crook)
Preliminary final Judd 29 possessions topped WC possession

We all know how good Judd is, thats not in dispute. But Shirley has built his reputation on containing Judd. I would think if you are tagging someone youd want them under 20 possessions especially the way Judd uses the ball and especially in a preliminary final!

The way Judd uses the ball? Ok hypothetical from my impression of watching Judd over the last couple of years. To make him stuff up a possession isn't that hard - make him run flat out and his ability to find a target is almost non existant at that speed. So if you manage to do that and the ball is turned over or goes out of bounds so that there can be a 50/50 contest but he gains a stat - does this actually mean that the tagger has done a bad job because he got a kick away (therefore his possession count increased) or a good job in either helping to create a turnover or a 50/50 contest? Possession stats are not helpful in a football context to me as they are fairly meaningless without qualifications such as being a goal assist, effective, where it was gained etc? They are just simply numbers to me.

The other thing about Judd that I found very noticeable is that whenever he gets possession, he often takes off in the semi circle to the left and the other west coast players come over the block that run - this is their way of assisting him to 'break the lines' and not use his speed as they know that his ability to control his kicking at speed is not good. A smart tagger or coach should have picked up on this and try to minimise that little trick. I've noticed Judd do this numerous times against other teams but very rarely does he do it against Adelaide and I was watching for this tactic quite closely.

 

[Crow Envy]

Crows games as well as other teams games? Although, just because people attend the games sometimes this does not mean that they actually understand what is happening out there.

Just because a player has a high possession count does not mean that they played well or their opponent did a bad job curtailing them. What needs to be taken into account is where the possessions were, how effective they actually were, etc. Someone mentioned Harvey in the 97 grandfinal, most of his possessions were 'allowed' by Blight to be in the back half although I do concede that the first tackle by McLeod on him in the first quarter that broke Harvey's ribs did help as well. Blight also used this theory / style of tagging for whenever we played Buckley - let him get his cheap possessions in the backhalf where he could do minimal damage.

Let's just say that the amount of negativity lately towards the players on our list from crows supporters I find to be downright annoying and makes me wonder if a lot of the posters on here actually understand the current game of football and the current structures that we have in place at the club?

Again I ask, does Judd burn the ball or get cheap kicks? Most of his possesions are centre clearances.

Whats also annoying is not allowing critical assesment of our squad because they are Crows players. Just because we want to get better doesnt mean we dont support them.

 

[tribey]

Fair enough, but that doesnt explain why Shirley is now going to improve?

- He's only 26
- Played the last two seasons exclusively in the guts - played 48 out of a possible 49 games in this time
- Finished 3rd in Hard Ball Gets in 2005
- Finished 6th in the AFC Club Champion in 2006
- His clearance work in the guts is criminally underrated by many - when the going got tough last season Rob was one of our few onballers who didn't start downhill skiing

Forget any question of improvement, the last two seasons have shown he has improved out of sight.

He has gone from a fringe stopper to an experienced frontline midfielder who not only shuts down opponents but acts as both an in-and-under ballwinner and a link man from defence to attack.

Given his age and new-found experience he is primed to improve yet further in 2007 if we view things realistically on a J-Curve and not merely because we want to stuff inexperienced kids in the guts just because they're first round draft picks.

 

[tribey]

Whats also annoying is not allowing critical assesment of our squad because they are Crows players. Just because we want to get better doesnt mean we dont support them.

I'd argue that what's more annoying is the all too prevalent one-dimensional and baseless assessments of certain players due to pre-conceived notions of what they bring to the side.

To infer that Shirley is obsolescent because he was unable to contain Judd to less than x-amount of possessions across three games against West Coast is painfully naive.

Especially when you look a little deeper and discover that Rowan Jones racked up 36 touches in Round 2 (Judd was WCE's 8th highest ballwinner with 23; Shirley got it 15 times inc. 5 first possessions) and Ben Cousins was got 38 touches in Round 17 (Judd was WCE's 9th highest ballwinner with 19; Shirley 10 touches with 6 clearances). In the Prelim Judd actually did get top possessions for the Eagles with 28, while Shirley got 10 touches with 7 tackles - which you'd call a clear win for Judd.

So what, that's one decisive defeat for Rob out of 3 games against the premier midfielder in the game in three defeats against the Premiership side? Hardly damning evidence to tap him on the shoulder is it?

Also, if your entire argument is based on Shirley's supposed non-performances on Judd - assuming you're applying this logic evenly where's your criticism of the rest of the players who couldn't keep the likes of Jones, Cousins, Kerr, Butler, Banfield, Braun, Waters and Fletcher in check?

 

[CrowMagnum]

No question he's one of if not our best in and under player. His weaknesses are footspeed, which won't improve, and footskills, especially penetration and goalkicking, which can improve if he works at it.

If the crowd starts to get excited when he's about to kick the footy then you know he's improved. ATM it's like Shirley's in possession, so what.

 

[maccas_no1]

- He's only 26
- Played the last two seasons exclusively in the guts - played 48 out of a possible 49 games in this time
- Finished 3rd in Hard Ball Gets in 2005
- Finished 6th in the AFC Club Champion in 2006
- His clearance work in the guts is criminally underrated by many - when the going got tough last season Rob was one of our few onballers who didn't start downhill skiing

Forget any question of improvement, the last two seasons have shown he has improved out of sight.

He has gone from a fringe stopper to an experienced frontline midfielder who not only shuts down opponents but acts as both an in-and-under ballwinner and a link man from defence to attack.

Given his age and new-found experience he is primed to improve yet further in 2007 if we view things realistically on a J-Curve and not merely because we want to stuff inexperienced kids in the guts just because they're first round draft picks.

My exact point and why I asked C98 why he thought Shirley could still improve and why Massie couldnt, both are the same age, both have a good 6-7 years footy ahead of them. Both have shown they are great players at AFL level and both have improved out of sight in the last 1-2yrs.

1st round draft picks are exactly that, nothing more nothing less they havent proved anything until they have played at AFL level, not even what they do in the SANFL can be counted to how they will play in the bright lights of the AFL.

 

[Crow-mo]

Are you kidding?

Shirley has been in the system for years and has played the last 2 as our premier tagger and only now is feeling comfortable?

What you see now with Shirley is what you will get for the next 3-4 years. He isnt a premier tagger as he does not have the pace to keep up with a Judd for example. For us to continue we need to develop a better run with player, hopefully Van Berlo could fill that role.

amazing how "making things up" gives you the freedom to debate subjects without a clue

none of those pesky boundaries that sticking to facts or relying on actual knowledge incur.

 

[Crow-mo]

I dont miss a game so you can throw that one liner out.

Very Effective? That happened in maybe one game about 2-3 years ago, since then Judd has carved us up. But Shirleys reputation of being effective on Judd has carried on.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6601439&postcount=175

strike 2

 

[Crow-mo]

I watched the 97 final the other day, Harvey still played well. Taking nothing away from Kane but it helped that we smashed Harvey on about 4 occasions.

umm... dare I suggest you're just not a very good observer?

not only is that rubbish, if you genuinely thought that, then you need to watch more closely.

The thing with harvey is he was denied the ball forward of the clearance. Blight required Johnson to zone him off, behind the fall of the ball so he could collect junk possessions - but do no damage.
which he did brilliantly.

 

[Crow-mo]

Crows games as well as other teams games? Although, just because people attend the games sometimes this does not mean that they actually understand what is happening out there.

Just because a player has a high possession count does not mean that they played well or their opponent did a bad job curtailing them. What needs to be taken into account is where the possessions were, how effective they actually were, etc. Someone mentioned Harvey in the 97 grandfinal, most of his possessions were 'allowed' by Blight to be in the back half although I do concede that the first tackle by McLeod on him in the first quarter that broke Harvey's ribs did help as well. Blight also used this theory / style of tagging for whenever we played Buckley - let him get his cheap possessions in the backhalf where he could do minimal damage.

Let's just say that the amount of negativity lately towards the players on our list from crows supporters I find to be downright annoying and makes me wonder if a lot of the posters on here actually understand the current game of football and the current structures that we have in place at the club?

Nikki,

you are rapidly becoming one of the top 2 or 3 best footy analysts around here.

top work

 

[tribey]

Nikki,

you are rapidly becoming one of the top 2 or 3 best footy analysts around here.

top work

Not least because she's on board the...

...Hungry Jack's Robert Shirley Birthday Train™ (Fig. 1.1).

Fig. 1.1 - The Engineer in action.

 

[Crow-mo]

DT,

that was slightly disturbing

 

[Dandy_GO]

Haha!

 

[-VC-]

Hahaha, good work DT...but Hungry Jack's are a major sponsor of West Coast. Is Rob infiltrating the opposition?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Not least because she's on board the...

...Hungry Jack's Robert Shirley Birthday Train™ (Fig. 1.1).

Fig. 1.1 - The Engineer in action.

Way too much time on your hands

We're at a point where all the player judgements are based on historical data / Historical perceptions .......new season and players will either surprise us or disappoint us with their form.

What we all neglect in discussions is the term "form" ....we judge players solely on talent which determines how well they play ....but even very talented players can have bad form and play badly ....this does not mean they have lost their talent.

The opposite also applies.

 

[tribey]

Hahaha, good work DT...but Hungry Jack's are a major sponsor of West Coast. Is Rob infiltrating the opposition?

He could be - there's no telling what he'll do next.

That's how he gets you... sneaks under your guard. One minute you're bemoaning the fact that Whoppers aren't as big in reality as they are on the ads, the next minute you're dead.

Way too much time on your hands

They said the same thing of Michelangelo when he painted the Sistine Chapel.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I'd argue that what's more annoying is the all too prevalent one-dimensional and baseless assessments of certain players due to pre-conceived notions of what they bring to the side.

How many midfielders in the competition would have sleepless nights about matching up on Shirley? It's not like having a Brett Kirk chase you around all day.

Every club has got some 'good ordinary' players, we're no different. And it doesn't mean you can't be ultimately successful - Rintoul and Keating have premiership medals. It is important to have a structure that minimises their weaknesses and emphasises their strengths. Neil Craig has demonstrated that he is a bit of an expert in this area and players like Massie and Shirley have had career best form since he has taken over.

Unfortunately if you have too many of this type of player then guys like Ricciuto, Goodwin, McLeod and Edwards are asked to do too much. Shirley, Massie, Perrie, McGregor and Stevens in the same line up is too many IMO.

 

[Crow Envy]

How many midfielders in the competition would have sleepless nights about matching up on Shirley? It's not like having a Brett Kirk chase you around all day.

Every club has got some 'good ordinary' players, we're no different. And it doesn't mean you can't be ultimately successful - Rintoul and Keating have premiership medals. It is important to have a structure that minimises their weaknesses and emphasises their strengths. Neil Craig has demonstrated that he is a bit of an expert in this area and players like Massie and Shirley have had career best form since he has taken over.

Unfortunately if you have too many of this type of player then guys like Ricciuto, Goodwin, McLeod and Edwards are asked to do too much. Shirley, Massie, Perrie, McGregor and Stevens in the same line up is too many IMO.

Be careful Carl, you are sure to incur the wrath of the "I love every Crows player because they are a Crows player" brigade and it might earn you a strike.

Isnt Brett Kirk one of the reasons Sydney can actually beat WC? Unlike us, but hey lets leave the team alone and not contemplate there may be better footballers out there.