Good on ya Nat!

[Argy]

You're describing 'rebuilding' not tanking.

Rebuilding is replacing deadwood, with the motivation of improving as as soon as possible.

Tanking is actually wanting to finish at the bottom edge of the ladder, purely for picks.

The end result may look similar, but the word 'tanking' questions the motivation, honour and integrity of all people involved at the club.

No-one would have questioned Barrett if he said, as many rightly did, that Hawthorn are doing a heavy rebuild.

Tanking is just cheating by another name. Tanking is a slur. He accused us of cheating in other words, that's the issue

It sounds like you're saying tanking is a "thought crime" as there is nothing to distinguish it from rebuilding other than motivation.

Setting aside the stigma attached to the tanking label, the overriding motivation for tanking is not to finish at the bottom end of the ladder, it's to win premierships as soon as possible. Same with rebuilding.

Finishing bottom is a means to an end. Short term pain for long term gain.

 

[eldorado]

Setting aside the stigma attached to the tanking label, the overriding motivation for tanking is not to finish at the bottom end of the ladder, it's to win premierships as soon as possible. Same with rebuilding.

No, you're being Damien Barrett now.

There has always been a clear and existing definition of tanking.

It's the one I gave. It is ABSOLUTELY wanting to finish near the bottom for picks.

If it wasn't, we wouldn't need a separate word for it, we'd just have the word 'rebuilding'...

 

[peetoo]

Well that would mean we had pretty much our best 22 running out there each week,

As it stands we have had a dream run with player availability all season anyhow.

A sensible analysis of our list management is that we felt we had to move on several seasoned players who weren’t going to be part of our next successful period.

That was to enable our current young players to get valuable experience. End of story.

Not to ensure we lost games and ended up with high draft picks - which is BS.

If we were trying to tank, we would have multiple gun players “managed” each week due to “general soreness”. It ain’t happening.

The three players I mentioned are not 20 21 22 on the list though

 

[peetoo]

13 games in 2022. 4 wins 87%. 2023. 4 wins 78%. Concede 10 points less per game. Same percentage - I mentioned the opponents so far are split 8-5 top bottom half of ladder

It’s not 2 steps back it’s a toenail

It’s not like the coach and the club haven’t spelled out exactly what the approach is. Precious is on his pat Malone sticking to his semantics

 

[cs61]

Eldorado is on the money. 'Rebuilding' and 'youth policy' were always the most common terms for what Hawthorn is doing. In fact, being the youngest side in the competition used to be a badge of honour, until Hawthorn started doing it. Funny thing is, North let go of heaps of senior players a while back, and this will be their third season in the bottom 2 in a row, but I don't recall tanking having being part of that conversation once in those three years. If it such a common expression, this 'form of tanking', it's interesting it has never been used by Barrett before for his own club.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Barrett is such a douche.

The tanking claim is that we moved on all the experience in a bid to get better draft picks and stockpile talented youth (by getting rid of senior players).
Funny how he now refers to Tom Mitchell as a brownlow medalist when all through trade period he was saying that Mitchell would be "a second round pick at best".

I think we moved Mitchell and O'Meara on because Day, Newcombe, Nash and Worpel had played enough games that Sam didn't think the arse would totally fall out of the side.

 

[naysayer]

By this definition, we tanked.

Wins at round 13 last year: 4
Wins at round 13 this year: 4

There's not much of an argument to say we've taken any effective measures to lose more games.

 

[Argy]

No, you're being Damien Barrett now.

There has always been a clear and existing definition of tanking.

It's the one I gave. It is ABSOLUTELY wanting to finish near the bottom for picks.

If it wasn't, we wouldn't need a separate word for it, we'd just have the word 'rebuilding'...

Sure. But what is the motivation for wanting to finish near the bottom for picks? It's to win a premiership sooner.

Look, I don't like the idea of actively trying to lose, but it's a perfectly logical thing to do if you think it will get you to the top sooner. That's to problem for the AFL - it is almost impossible to tell the difference between tanking and a "deep rebuild", because the difference is in the minds of those doing it.

By the way, I'm with Sammy on this. I think building a winning mindset into the players is a far better approach than putting your eggs into a future pick with the hope that one player will tur naround the fortunes of the club.

 

[unitedhawk]

Sure. But what is the motivation for wanting to finish near the bottom for picks? It's to win a premiership sooner.

Look, I don't like the idea of actively trying to lose, but it's a perfectly logical thing to do if you think it will get you to the top sooner. That's to problem for the AFL - it is almost impossible to tell the difference between tanking and a "deep rebuild", because the difference is in the minds of those doing it.

By the way, I'm with Sammy on this. I think building a winning mindset into the players is a far better approach than putting your eggs into a future pick with the hope that one player will tur naround the fortunes of the club.

To me, the difference is quite straightforward.

Rebuilding aggressively like we are, trusting the likes of Duke, Day, Worps, Nash, et al to take over from the old guard, aided by a progressive game plan, gets players and fans on board and builds a winning culture, the results of which will be increasingly visible to some media muppets in particular over the next 18 months. We're well our way to becoming a long-term force from 2025 onwards.

Tanking for draft picks builds a losing culture. Just look at how long it took Melbourne to recover from tanking for Jack Watts, who didn't quite live up to the hype.

 

[peetoo]

13 games in 2022. 4 wins 87%. 2023. 4 wins 78%. Concede 10 points less per game. Same percentage - I mentioned the opponents so far are split 8-5 top bottom half of ladder

It’s not 2 steps back it’s a toenail

It’s not like the coach and the club haven’t spelled out exactly what the approach is. Precious is on his pat Malone sticking to his semantics

Percentage. Add 2 goals per game to 2023 and one goal per game to 2022, it’s 6 wins from 13 and same percentage

 

[almuz]

It’s a form of tanking

According to Bozo - it’s tanking if you don’t built your list in a way that maximises wins in the next 12 months

Realistically an 18 year old kid isn’t as useful as a 26-30 year old seasoned body in an AFL game in 2023.

Therefore EVERY team engages in a form of tanking.

For example, say there’s an injury crisis at the Dees. Who’s better for a game right now - some 18 year old that’s number 44 on their list or say Brown from Box Hill?

I’d say Brown performs better right now in 2023 therefore the Dees are TANKING

 

[peetoo]

It’s a form of tanking

According to Bozo - it’s tanking if you don’t built your list in a way that maximises wins in the next 12 months

Realistically an 18 year old kid isn’t as useful as a 26-30 year old seasoned body in an AFL game in 2023.

Therefore EVERY team engages in a form of tanking.

For example, say there’s an injury crisis at the Dees. Who’s better for a game right now - some 18 year old that’s number 44 on their list or say Brown from Box Hill?

I’d say Brown performs better right now in 2023 therefore the Dees are TANKING

It wouldn’t have been that ethical sending Tom and omeara to box hill for the season like Melbourne have with brown etc

 

[almuz]

It wouldn’t have been that ethical sending Tom and omeara to box hill for the season like Melbourne have with brown etc

Oh sorry I’m talking about Cal Brown from BHH not BigBonerBrown

As in Cal Brown is a solid body who could do decently in the AFL rather than an 18 year old with potential in 2-3 years

Same with someone like Daniel Howe, he’d be better than a lot of young players in the 2s for good teams. Therefore, they are tanking for carrying these kids!!

 

[Lawsy]

If we'd played Lewis at BHH for 4 weeks when he was fit, or played him at CHB when he came back into the side, there would be legitimate calls of tanking and Purple and his merry men would have beat more than a drum but it didn't happen like that. We played our best side in their position, have improved as had been suggested would happen and are now looking like we could leap frog a few above us in the next 3 weeks (which are all winnable)

 

[tommyk72]

Percentage. Add 2 goals per game to 2023 and one goal per game to 2022, it’s 6 wins from 13 and same percentage

It's not that unbelievable either. Given the games Mitch Lewis has missed and the averages he has when he's been playing.

 

[Argy]

To me, the difference is quite straightforward.

Rebuilding aggressively like we are, trusting the likes of Duke, Day, Worps, Nash, et al to take over from the old guard, aided by a progressive game plan, gets players and fans on board and builds a winning culture, the results of which will be increasingly visible to some media muppets in particular over the next 18 months. We're well our way to becoming a long-term force from 2025 onwards.

Tanking for draft picks builds a losing culture. Just look at how long it took Melbourne to recover from tanking for Jack Watts, who didn't quite live up to the hype.

For what it's worth I agree with you. Except that I don't think it's that easy to differentiate tanking from rebuilding as they're based on the same philosophy; short term pain for long term gain.

 

[peetoo]

https://heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/north-melbourne/north-melbourne-coach-brad-scott-says-kangaroos-kids-are-the-priority-now/news-story/c6209a086b689baa0c01dcccacc1177e

‘If boomer and the others were still on the list, I’d play them’ North Melbourne coach Brad Scott 2016

BARRETT: Can these new leaders stop a shaky North from heading south?

The arrival of three new faces in key posts coincides with the Kangaroos being in a vulnerable place - again. Damian Barrett delves deep into the club's latest turmoil

www.afl.com.au

And shock horror, Purple didn’t seem overly shocked at 1200 games of experience departing

(I’m not counting it as some kind of achievement - finding an AFL journo being hypocritical took 10 minutes)

Maybe the seven years out of finals for north is triggering Barrett

 

[Nugett]

If you know that cutting back your list will naturally lead to more games lost, why is that not tanking?

I cant find any AFL rules on tanking, the best I could do is this Wiki entry...



By this definition, we tanked.

For what it's worth, I agree 100% that tanking is not in the spirit in which we want the game to be played, but I don't see a philosophical difference between that and strategic positioning during the wider competition.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand why it's frowned on - if all clubs did it it would make the week to week competition a farce. However, from a philosophical view, winning games is just a means to an end - the ultimate prize; a premiership. In a philosophical sense I don't see why a club that takes a wider view than just week to week is doing anything worse than a long distance runner.

Short term pain for long term gain.

the big differences, is that Carlton and Melbourne, would deliberately move players around, bench certain players in an effort to lose. there was a game where Melbourne won, while the players were happy, the coaching staff looked livid. there were rumours that some board members were placing us to lose in the Ken Judge days, but he refused. Brock McClean admitted that some of the older players were encouraged not to play well. Dean Bailey even lost his job because of it.

what we are doing is blooding players to get experience. There is no obvious examples of us trying to lose games. The players are busting their guts to improve. Sam is busting his gut to give them players the best chance of having a winning culture.

 

[Nugett]

Eldorado is on the money. 'Rebuilding' and 'youth policy' were always the most common terms for what Hawthorn is doing. In fact, being the youngest side in the competition used to be a badge of honour, until Hawthorn started doing it. Funny thing is, North let go of heaps of senior players a while back, and this will be their third season in the bottom 2 in a row, but I don't recall tanking having being part of that conversation once in those three years. If it such a common expression, this 'form of tanking', it's interesting it has never been used by Barrett before for his own club.

I’m expecting a third #1 pick for the kanga’s