Society/Culture Greens vow to move Australia Day

[JeffDunne]

OK, so removing all forms of colonial power from certain groups? Much of a muchness in this context really.

Not even close. That's the extreme view.

For most indigenous groups it's simply having a guaranteed say in issues that effect indigenous people, especially those issues unique to them.

They don't want to wind back or eliminate the institutions we already have, they want to add an indigenous representative arm to it.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Actually it's not.

It's giving self-determination to people that have been living under colonial rule.

For different indigenous groups it means different things. The Uluru proposal was a result of attempting to negotiate that into a consensus view.

Can I have self determination too?

 

[JeffDunne]

Can I have self determination too?

What's your case for it?

Form an activist group, state your objectives, get some followers, influence politics and you might just get there.

Unless of course you're just a self-entitled bludger with your hand out. Then you have no chance.

 

[JeffDunne]

The Uluru proposal was about self-determination while ensuring the indigenous don’t lose any special privileges from it.

Cake and eat it too.

I'm guessing you have no idea what it was trying to achieve?

 

[Frank Bunn]

Seems Tarneen has restricted public viewing of her twitter feed.

The Koorie Youth Council seem confused whether she's an amazing, deadly and active part of the Executive - or just a volunteer with her own personal opinions.

 

[King Brown]

I'm guessing you have no idea what it was trying to achieve?

I do. It wants to abolish the race power inasmuch as it can be used against the indigenous (fair) but retain the powers that allow laws to be made in favour of the indigenous (unfair).

 

[Snake_Baker]

What's your case for it?

Form an activist group, state your objectives, get some followers, influence politics and you might just get there.

Unless of course you're just a self-entitled bludger with your hand out. Then you have no chance.

I don't have a natural born right for self determination?

Do I need some type of cultural or racial parameters to qualify?

 

[SSwans2011]

I'll just leave this taken from WAR, you know that radicalised leftist movement you support that uses aboriginals as mere pawns in their ultimate goal

"In response to the attacks on WAR members and the call to burn Australia to the ground at the Naarm Abolish Australia Day Rally, we would like to issue the following statement:

F$@& Australia.
F$@& your land theft, your child stealing and your state sanctioned murders.
F$@&your governments, your military and your police.
F$@& your concentration camps dressed up as correctional facilities and immigration detention centres.
F$@&your economy, your greed and your cult of the almighty dollar.
F$@& your poisoning of water, your wholesale destruction of land and your pollution of our atmosphere.
F$@& your language forced upon us and violently attempting to replace our very own.
F$@& your white supremacy, your patriarchy and your capitalism.
F$@& your flag, your anthem and your precious national day.
WAR will not rest until we burn this entire rotten settler colony called Australia, illegally and violently imposed on stolen Aboriginal land at the expense of the blood of countless thousands, to the ******* ground, until every corrupt and illegal institution of white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist settler colonial power forced upon us is no more. We will not rest until we build a society that cares for and honours the Earth, our mother, that respects the interconnectedness of all beings, that is founded on our sovereignty and responsibility to this country and the people who live on it, and that offers a place of safety and prosperity for our people and for all those oppressed and excluded by the current systems of power - refugees, people of colour, LGBTQIA people, poor people, disabled people.
Abolish Australia, not just Australia Day"

I believe this was why you were marching anyway, their thinking is exactly in line with yours. It's quite sad really

Yawn. I marched to support changing the date, not to support WAR. I've said this several times. Keep up.

You'll notice they were reported as Invasion Day rallies - not WAR rallies. Stop your pissweak attempts at point-scoring. I'm not going to be responding any further, but it's pretty embarrassing watching you misrepresent me, because you have no better points to make.

 

[ShanDog]

Not even close. That's the extreme view.

For most indigenous groups it's simply having a guaranteed say in issues that effect indigenous people, especially those issues unique to them.

They don't want to wind back or eliminate the institutions we already have, they want to add an indigenous representative arm to it.

From reading the wikipedia article you linked, it would seem to represent the standard view actually.

 

[Snake_Baker]

The Koorie Youth Council seem confused whether she's an amazing, deadly and active part of the Executive - or just a volunteer with her own personal opinions.

View attachment 454712

View attachment 454710

They support her..................unofficially.

Gotta keep whiteys cheques rollin' in.

 

[YEWNIT]

Just watched The Drum.....predictable panellists accusing any who opposes changing the date of being ‘horrible racists’.

Campaigners the lot of them.

 

[strung_out7]

Yawn. I marched to support changing the date, not to support WAR. I've said this several times. Keep up.

You'll notice they were reported as Invasion Day rallies - not WAR rallies. Stop your pissweak attempts at point-scoring. I'm not going to be responding any further, but it's pretty embarrassing watching you misrepresent me, because you have no better points to make.

Nice try.

 

[JeffDunne]

I don't have a natural born right for self determination?

Huh?

Who has natural born rights? Is there such a thing?

Do I need some type of cultural or racial parameters to qualify?

No idea. You're the one telling a story.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Huh?

Who has natural born rights? Is there such a thing?


No idea. You're the one telling a story.

 

[JeffDunne]

You might want to take this test : https://edge.alluremedia.com.au/uploads/businessinsider/2018/01/test.jpg

I have no idea what on earth you are talking about.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Fat Yak what institutions have the left torn down?

 

[10571z]

From "WARS" facebook page a group who organised the march and call it invasion day

-----------------------------------------------
In response to the attacks on WAR members and the call to burn Australia to the ground at the Naarm Abolish Australia Day Rally, we would like to issue the following statement:

* Australia.
* your land theft, your child stealing and your state sanctioned murders.
* your governments, your military and your police.
* your concentration camps dressed up as correctional facilities and immigration detention centres.
* your economy, your greed and your cult of the almighty dollar.
* your poisoning of water, your wholesale destruction of land and your pollution of our atmosphere.
* your language forced upon us and violently attempting to replace our very own.
* your white supremacy, your patriarchy and your capitalism.
* your flag, your anthem and your precious national day.
WAR will not rest until we burn this entire rotten settler colony called Australia, illegally and violently imposed on stolen Aboriginal land at the expense of the blood of countless thousands, to the ******* ground, until every corrupt and illegal institution of white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist settler colonial power forced upon us is no more. We will not rest until we build a society that cares for and honours the Earth, our mother, that respects the interconnectedness of all beings, that is founded on our sovereignty and responsibility to this country and the people who live on it, and that offers a place of safety and prosperity for our people and for all those oppressed and excluded by the current systems of power - refugees, people of colour, LGBTQIA people, poor people, disabled people.
Abolish Australia, not just Australia Day
----------------------------------------------------------------

All good though. Move the date and all the aboriginal people will be running around with australia flags enjoying the day.

 

[Full Wingspan]

Not in my mind.



You couldn't even be bothered reading the link I provided, so this comes as no surprise.

I think I've been more than reasonable in my attempts to procure information from you. Telling me to go off and read an 80-page document in order to understand the perceived benefits pushing your republic argument is quite frankly, lazy. I've asked you to merely outline what exactly you think would change under this structure (even briefly, so I may further investigate your arguments).

You're being unnecessarily hostile to someone who simply wants to better understand your point of view. You're coming across as a pseudo-intellectual, however you have demonstrated almost no insight on your understanding of our Constitution and how it operates in our country. My efforts to engage in a meaningful conversation on the topic have been thwarted by your inability to articulate any sort of answer to the questions I've posed.

For the record, I am general supporter of the push for Australia to become a republic, however no material benefits come to mind that cannot already be achieved under the current state of play.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I think I've been more than reasonable in my attempts to procure information from you. Telling me to go off and read an 80-page document in order to understand the perceived benefits pushing your republic argument is quite frankly, lazy. I've asked you to merely outline what exactly you think would change under this structure (even briefly, so I may further investigate your arguments).

You're being unnecessarily hostile to someone who simply wants to better understand your point of view. You're coming across as a pseudo-intellectual, however you have demonstrated almost no insight on your understanding of our Constitution and how it operates in our country. My efforts to engage in a meaningful conversation on the topic have been thwarted by your inability to articulate any sort of answer to the questions I've posed.

For the record, I am general supporter of the push for Australia to become a republic, however no material benefits come to mind that cannot already be achieved under the current state of play.

I honestly don't know what else you could expect.

There is no 6 dot point presentation that could cover such a concept, and even if I could do that, you would respond, I would have to qualify and the thing would roll on ad infinitum until I finally posted 80 pages explaining myself that you should have read in the first place..

 

[Full Wingspan]

Yes that's right. Our system is supposed to be a balance between people power and large scale representative power. Sometimes issues can slip through the cracks though. A good example is probably SSM. If we had the power to force a binding national vote like they do in Switzerland, we probably would have had SSM several years ago.

Exactly the example I was thinking of. Factions and sub-factions within the major parties appear to have prevented progressive changes like this, that are overwhelmingly the will of the majority.

Perhaps going a little off track with the republic debate, but how would you like to see a people's vote work in Australia? How do you vote on the decision to hold a binding vote? What would the change look like if it were adopted? Constitutional amendment or ordinary statute? Or an ordinary statue with special protections (i.e. two-thirds of both houses must vote to repeal the legislation - making it somewhere between ordinary legislature and entrenched law).

 

[Full Wingspan]

When did that period end and what period of history are you proud of?

The negatives of European settlement are still on going for the original inhabitants, so if you claim that 26 January was the beginning of it, it never ended.

This is the correct claim made by the indigenous activists on Invasions Day - that there is no Australia Day worth celebrating.

But people want to eat their cake and have it to - they want a sop to the activists to alleviate their guilt for a little while, while doing nothing substantive to address the underlying problems in the first place.

And that is because we cannot address the underlying problems. So all we end up with is a never ending cycle of resentment feeding on itself.

This is a very good and thought-provoking question that has allowed me to reflect on my position on what exactly is a suitable date. As you rightly point out, some of the adverse effects are still experienced by aboriginals today.

In all honesty I have only heard second-hand of the challenges faced by our indigenous people. From their descriptions, phrases like "third world" an "entirely different country" and "eye-opening" are frequently used. We need to do much, much more in order to address these substantive issues.

I fall into the crowd that believe that symbols, such as our national day, can have a powerful impact which can indirectly impact on these issues, even if it is merely bringing the discussion to the table.

In saying that, I feel the 3 March date (which occurred relatively recently), has more relevance to our independence as a nation and the passage of the Australia Acts occurred in an era where we began to see the acknowledgement and respect of our first people much more prominently (at least formally and through the courts).

 

[Jello_B]

Haha a WHOLE 23 years??! How will we survive change of that magnitude??! lol

Thanks for once again confirming exactly what I first said in reply to you with the poor excuse for rational thought that makes up the rest of your post. You are ideologically possessed and your unwillingness to change the date of Australia Day is entirely based on an us v them dichotomous political war, and absolutely nothing about the significance of the day itself. "Forget the first fleet happened" indeed.

Your slippery slope fallacy is noted, and completely rejected. You can't argue this issue with an argument regarding a hypothetical future issue. The future issue is irrelevant, and your attempt to do so is further evidence of your ideological bent.

You've engaged in a battle of wits while unarmed. So much for private schooling.

Slippery slope is real here. There is a visible demonstration that after the date change it will be flag, Queen, anthem the whole shebang. These agendas are all connected, and hence we should talk about them as a collective. The question shouldn’t be around changing the date, it should be arrange changing our identity.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Slippery slope is real here. There is a visible demonstration that after the date change it will be flag, Queen, anthem the whole shebang. These agendas are all connected, and hence we should talk about them as a collective. The question shouldn’t be around changing the date, it should be arrange changing our identity.

You're treating the changing of the flag, queen and anthem as if they are the end of the world. Clearly you're a monarchist, but given they do * all anyway with our country, does it really matter? Are we that connected to old Queenie?

 

[Full Wingspan]

I honestly don't know what else you could expect.

There is no 6 dot point presentation that could cover such a concept, and even if I could do that, you would respond, I would have to qualify and the thing would roll on ad infinitum until I finally posted 80 pages explaining myself that you should have read in the first place..

I'm not asking for a six dot presentation, but some insight would be nice.

It would be like me saying "Snake_Baker, please read the following to understand the reasons against Australia becoming a republic: (a) the Australian Constitution; (b) all case law involving the interpretation of the Australian Constitution; and (c) various commentary on the Australian Constitution."

Your inability to communicate any sort of coherent discussion on the topic is ultimately my loss, as I am interested to understand why you feel so strongly on the topic and feel it would make our system of government better than what it currently is.

 

[ShanDog]

Exactly the example I was thinking of. Factions and sub-factions within the major parties appear to have prevented progressive changes like this, that are overwhelmingly the will of the majority.

Perhaps going a little off track with the republic debate, but how would you like to see a people's vote work in Australia? How do you vote on the decision to hold a binding vote? What would the change look like if it were adopted? Constitutional amendment or ordinary statute? Or an ordinary statue with special protections (i.e. two-thirds of both houses must vote to repeal the legislation - making it somewhere between ordinary legislature and entrenched law).

Oh I have a detailed plan to change democracy in this country to a hybrid direct and representative democratic process for all legislation. I'll start a thread one day soon to detail it so everyone can brainstorm the holes in it before I take over.