GWS Giants - honeymoon is over?

[Philhawk]

As a Giants supporter, IMO the unavailability of Engie Stadium due to the Easter Show, and 3 game Canberra deal are forever going to hold the club back in Western Sydney.

The results are there - consistently in the Finals (although they haven't taken their chances).

Problem is that it's not translating into bums on seats, and with the current arrangements, sadly for me, I don't think it ever will.

Adding to my concern is the number of highly-paid, long-term contract players who are over 30.

It makes it difficult attracting quality players and the form of players >30 can decline rather quickly.

A double-edged sword.

As much as I enjoy supporting the Giants, I'm just not that confident the AFL will persist with the low crowd numbers (this year on average lower than 2024) if the results on field decline as I suspect they will, especially with a 19th team entering the comp.

Couldn’t agree more. It’s madness trying to win hearts and minds in western Sydney … by playing in Canberra.

 

[fnerd]

It's not just about development.
They need NSW and Qld teams to be viable for the AFL to survive.
Especially they need players drafted out of NSW and Qld. That's the key metric.
And Qld is absolutely streets ahead.

What about WA junior football development?
It’s flatlining .
QLD alone will produce more draftees this year than WA never mind adding NSW and Tassie kids.

If it’s all about game development /jrs going on to compete in the AFL then
How come WC and Freo don’t get an exclusive academy for kids ?

WA is after all 2nd most populous football state and its elite juniors have been haemorrhaging compared to other states.

I assume all northern clubs (and I’m talking their management would agree complete access to wa talent for the states 2 clubs from here on out?

 

[WillHayward]

What about WA junior football development?
It’s flatlining .
QLD alone will produce more draftees this year than WA never mind adding NSW and Tassie kids.

If it’s all about game development /jrs going on to compete in the AFL then
How come WC and Freo don’t get an exclusive academy for kids ?

WA is after all 2nd most populous football state and its elite juniors have been haemorrhaging compared to other states.

I assume all northern clubs (and I’m talking their management would agree complete access to wa talent for the states 2 clubs from here on out?

Different issues in WA though.

Low hanging fruit in SEQ to shift kids from rugby to Aussie rules to grow the size of the talent pool pie.

WA currently having a population boom so that should increase WA talent.

But my understanding is the WA footy Commission insists it wants to run it's own show and won't allow the AFL in. It's all about the WA commision wanting to keep control and power.

The WA commission don't want AFL academies.

So sounds like WA is itself to blame here.

And here you are having a whinge about not having AFL Academies.

Wa commission is the problem not the AFL.

But WA nuffies want to blame everything on "over east* and the imaginary conspiracy.

 

[Cmarsh]

Low hanging fruit in SEQ to shift kids from rugby to Aussie rules to grow the size of the talent pool pie.

Is it? Why do you think it is so easy to shift kids from playing rugby to footy in SE QLD?

 

[Canberra Pear]

Do we really need another thread shitting on the Giants?

• The Giants just had their second highest average attendance.
• The Giants increased seated memberships this year by 10%.

The Giants are clearly headed in the right direction. The home crowds are becoming more and more pro-Giants.

Just get them in Sydney full-time. Canberra is such a momentum-killer. Plus constant calls to relocate to Canberra (three times in this thread alone) would also be damaging.

The Giants are already headed in the right direction, but they just need to lose the Canberra shackles.

 

[WillHayward]

Is it? Why do you think it is so easy to shift kids from playing rugby to footy in SE QLD?

Relatively speaking. But probably need to look at a whole bunch of things. Demographics, schools, access to ovals, etc.
Lots more ex Victorians on the Gold coast . Very few or none in western Sydney.

 

[WillHayward]

Do we really need another thread shitting on the Giants?

• The Giants just had their second highest average attendance.
• The Giants increased seated memberships this year by 10%.

The Giants are clearly headed in the right direction. The home crowds are becoming more and more pro-Giants.

Just get them in Sydney full-time. Canberra is such a momentum-killer. Plus constant calls to relocate to Canberra (three times in this thread alone) would also be damaging.

The Giants are already headed in the right direction, but they just need to lose the Canberra shackles.

Where did you get that information?

Footywire says something different?

Im happy for people to disagree with me, prove me wrong (not hard) and have different opinions but you can't make stuff up .

GWS Giants Crowds and Match Attendances

GWS Giants match attendances. Includes current season and historical data and statistics.

www.footywire.com

 

[Canberra Pear]

Where did you get that information?

Footywire says something different?

Im happy for people to disagree with me, prove me wrong (not hard) and have different opinions but you can't make stuff up .View attachment 2426277

GWS Giants Crowds and Match Attendances

GWS Giants match attendances. Includes current season and historical data and statistics.

www.footywire.com

That table also includes Manuka crowds.

If the point is about growth in Western Sydney, then a better measure is crowds at Engie. And the Giants just had their second highest Engie average.

The Giants got 10.5k against the Suns this year. A team with minimal travelling fans. Their previous highest was 8k. There's clear signs of growth.

 

[2 eazy]

We need to win a flag to get that cut through, most people in Western Sydney could not name one Giants player . Engie is close to Accor where nrl bulldogs and soit's from.nrl.play Amount of people walk into that perplexed im wearing gws gear as they dont even know gws play at homebush.

 

[Shipping Report]

The Victorian media has always really really liked the Giants.

There’s shills on here who defend it to the death but they play in irrelevant time slots, haven’t increased participation (I’d say southern NSW is worse since they came in), and play a paltry seven games in their home market. I’m sure the domination of Penrith in the NRL has derailed them too.

Absolute shit club that brings nothing to the game. Suns will be way more successful despite the slower start. People in western Sydney don’t follow sport that heavily and definitely won’t go into Aussie rules. it’s about as fanciful as Perth Bears.

 

[Shipping Report]

We need to win a flag to get that cut through, most people in Western Sydney could not name one Giants player . Engie is close to Accor where nrl bulldogs and soit's from.nrl.play Amount of people walk into that perplexed im wearing gws gear as they dont even know gws play at homebush.

The idea of winning a flag to sustain a crowd is nuts. They all would.

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

A few thoughts at my end.

First, I agree with the comments saying they should be the Western Sydney Giants, rather than GWS.

About a month ago, I was chatting with a colleague at an industry event and I mentioned I followed the AFL. During the conversation I mentioned there are two Sydney clubs: The Sydney Swans and the GWS Giants.

His literal reply was to ask what "GWS" stands for.

Outside the NSW Planning Department, I don't know of anyone who uses the term "Greater Western Sydney" in their everyday speech.

"Western Sydney" would make it clearer to everyone who they are and what they represent.

With the Olympic Park precinct, it's a less bad version of the suburban sports precinct that suffers from some of the issues that Waverley Park and Football Park did.

It's in the middle of suburbia, surrounded by light industrial areas, suburbs, nature reserves, and a prison. It's not near the main Sydney CBD, it's not near the Parramatta CBD, and it's not on the main T1 western suburbs train line.

Yes, direct train services do run to Olympic Park for major events, like if Taylor Swift is doing a concert or NRL State of Origin.

But the rest of the time, it's just a shuttle service from Lidcombe Station. And getting there means getting off your train, climbing the steps to the main concourse, climbing back down the steps to platform one, then walking to the end of platform one to find platform zero.

And unless there's something else on GWS almost always gets the shuttle train treatment.

The only alternative is a bus from Strathfield that's almost always overcrowded because of people going to the DFO Homebush shopping centre.

The good news is the transport situation should improve when the new Sydney CBD to Parramatta/Westmead Metro line opens in a few years. And it will also improve once the Parramatta light rail is extended to Olympic Park.

But it still can be a pain to get to right now by public transport.

It was probably a mistake not to invest in a new stadium near the Parramatta CBD when the Giants first started. And if the new transport links don't help lift crowds, perhaps that's something that should be revisited.

With grassroots footy and Auskick in Western Sydney.

There was a lot of investment when the Giants first started.

Unfortunately, a lot of that momentum was lost during the pandemic.

There are many cricket ovals that could have AFL goalposts over the winter that don't.

The big challenger on this front isn't rugby league or union: It's soccer.

The AFL needs to do another round of big investment into grassroots footy again, like it did when the Giants started, to really build momentum again.

Western Sydney is a very multicultural region. There's big Chinese, Lebanese, Indian, Korean, Vietnamese, Thai, Turkish, Bengali, Maori/Islander, East African and other communities.

At a grassroots level, the AFL needs to do more to engage with these communities at a grassroots level.

And at an elite level, GWS' playing list should probably better reflect the multicultural diversity of Western Sydney.

It would make a huge difference if a Middle Eastern background ran a footy clinic at a local school in Bankstown or Wiley Park or Lakemba, vs a bunch of white guys from Melbourne.

So yes, there's a lot more the AFL could (and should) be doing.

But even if it did everything right, this is a very long term project. It's a slow build over decades, from near zero.

It might take 20 years, but if GWS attracts even 1000 more people each year from now to 2045, that eventually reaches the crowds of ~30,000 you'd want to see.

 

[2 eazy]

A few thoughts at my end.

First, I agree with the comments saying they should be the Western Sydney Giants, rather than GWS.

About a month ago, I was chatting with a colleague at an industry event and I mentioned I followed the AFL. During the conversation I mentioned there are two Sydney clubs: The Sydney Swans and the GWS Giants.

His literal reply was to ask what "GWS" stands for.

Outside the NSW Planning Department, I don't know of anyone who uses the term "Greater Western Sydney" in their everyday speech.

"Western Sydney" would make it clearer to everyone who they are and what they represent.

With the Olympic Park precinct, it's a less bad version of the suburban sports precinct that suffers from some of the issues that Waverley Park and Football Park did.

It's in the middle of suburbia, surrounded by light industrial areas, suburbs, nature reserves, and a prison. It's not near the main Sydney CBD, it's not near the Parramatta CBD, and it's not on the main T1 western suburbs train line.

Yes, direct train services do run to Olympic Park for major events, like if Taylor Swift is doing a concert or NRL State of Origin.

But the rest of the time, it's just a shuttle service from Lidcombe Station. And getting there means getting off your train, climbing the steps to the main concourse, climbing back down the steps to platform one, then walking to the end of platform one to find platform zero.

And unless there's something else on GWS almost always gets the shuttle train treatment.

The only alternative is a bus from Strathfield that's almost always overcrowded because of people going to the DFO Homebush shopping centre.

The good news is the transport situation should improve when the new Sydney CBD to Parramatta/Westmead Metro line opens in a few years. And it will also improve once the Parramatta light rail is extended to Olympic Park.

But it still can be a pain to get to right now by public transport.

It was probably a mistake not to invest in a new stadium near the Parramatta CBD when the Giants first started. And if the new transport links don't help lift crowds, perhaps that's something that should be revisited.

With grassroots footy and Auskick in Western Sydney.

There was a lot of investment when the Giants first started.

Unfortunately, a lot of that momentum was lost during the pandemic.

There are many cricket ovals that could have AFL goalposts over the winter that don't.

The big challenger on this front isn't rugby league or union: It's soccer.

The AFL needs to do another round of big investment into grassroots footy again, like it did when the Giants started, to really build momentum again.

Western Sydney is a very multicultural region. There's big Chinese, Lebanese, Indian, Korean, Vietnamese, Thai, Turkish, Bengali, Maori/Islander, East African and other communities.

At a grassroots level, the AFL needs to do more to engage with these communities at a grassroots level.

And at an elite level, GWS' playing list should probably better reflect the multicultural diversity of Western Sydney.

It would make a huge difference if a Middle Eastern background ran a footy clinic at a local school in Bankstown or Wiley Park or Lakemba, vs a bunch of white guys from Melbourne.

So yes, there's a lot more the AFL could (and should) be doing.

But even if it did everything right, this is a very long term project. It's a slow build over decades, from near zero.

It might take 20 years, but if GWS attracts even 1000 more people each year from now to 2045, that eventually reaches the crowds of ~30,000 you'd want to see.

There are train links to Olympic Park every day as their offices there.
Issue is mentality and attitudes towards afl in western sydney

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

There are train links to Olympic Park every day as their offices there.

And those trains typically run as a shuttle service to platform zero at Lidcombe station.

You then need to get off and change to a different train service at Lidcombe.

The only times they run direct single-seat services to the Sydney CBD, or to Parramatta, is when there's a major event on, or trackwork.

And as far as Sydney Trains is concerned, GWS games don't count as a major event. So no direct trains from Olympic Park to Parramatta or the Sydney CBD on game day, most of the time.

Why does that matter?

Well, the Hills district is one of the parts of Sydney where Aussie Rules is relatively stronger. And, at least according to the AFL, it's part of Greater Western Sydney.

Okay, so say you wanted to go from Castle Hill to Sydney Olympic Park by train to see GWS play. How would you get there?

Well, you'd catch the Northwest Metro to Epping. That's one train. You'd catch the T9 to Strathfield. That's two trains. You'd then catch a T1 western train from Strathfield to Lidcombe. We're now up to three. And finally the shuttle train service from platform zero at Lidcombe to Olympic Park.

That's four trains each way, or eight in a return trip, which is not ideal.

(Just for comparison, if you want to go see the Swans, you'd catch the Metro to Central, tgen change to a light rail to Moore Park.)

The Western Sydney Metro will help fix that, by providing a direct train link from Parramatta and the Sydney CBD to Olympic Park, plus a connection to the T9 at Strathfield North. But that's still some way off.

Phase two of Parramatta Light Rail to Olympic Park will also help accessibility. But again, some way off.

Issue is mentality and attitudes towards afl in western sydney

I'm clearly not saying that's the only issue at play. Go back and read my original post!

But better transport links to Olympic Park might contribute to better crowds in the future, potentially negating the need for a new stadium (which would be the alternative).

 

[2 eazy]

And those trains typically run as a shuttle service to platform zero at Lidcombe station.

You then need to get off and change to a different train service at Lidcombe.

The only times they run direct single-seat services to the Sydney CBD, or to Parramatta, is when there's a major event on, or trackwork.

And as far as Sydney Trains is concerned, GWS games don't count as a major event. So no direct trains from Olympic Park to Parramatta or the Sydney CBD on game day, most of the time.

Why does that matter?

Well, the Hills district is one of the parts of Sydney where Aussie Rules is relatively stronger. And, at least according to the AFL, it's part of Greater Western Sydney.

Okay, so say you wanted to go from Castle Hill to Sydney Olympic Park by train to see GWS play. How would you get there?

Well, you'd catch the Northwest Metro to Epping. That's one train. You'd catch the T9 to Strathfield. That's two trains. You'd then catch a T1 western train from Strathfield to Lidcombe. We're now up to three. And finally the shuttle train service from platform zero at Lidcombe to Olympic Park.

That's four trains each way, or eight in a return trip, which is not ideal.

(Just for comparison, if you want to go see the Swans, you'd catch the Metro to Central, tgen change to a light rail to Moore Park.)

The Western Sydney Metro will help fix that, by providing a direct train link from Parramatta and the Sydney CBD to Olympic Park, plus a connection to the T9 at Strathfield North. But that's still some way off.

Phase two of Parramatta Light Rail to Olympic Park will also help accessibility. But again, some way off.


I'm clearly not saying that's the only issue at play. Go back and read my original post!

But better transport links to Olympic Park might contribute to better crowds in the future, potentially negating the need for a new stadium (which would be the alternative).

Castle hill is hard as no train station but of you live in blacktown or Parramatta or Penrith there direct trains to Lidcombe. Legit biggest issue is tribalism in Australian Sport going for team in another code is like committing treason. Us sport fans go for all teams in their city unlike us.

 

[kozi]

Call them NSW Giants.

AFL would butcher that too and call it Greater NSW

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Is the honeymoon over? 14 years in to the experiment.

Average home crowds this season 12,000.

Hogan, Whitfield, Greene, Kelly, Coniglio all 30.

AFLW side on the bottom .

Tassie coming in.

We all know the "membership" numbers are fake and pumped up by the cheap kayo offer

Publicly they will say everything is going great but privately the AFL would be worried.

No new draftees coming out of western Sydney while SEQ has become a footy factory

How do people really think the Giants are going out in western Sydney if we put the positive spin to the side?

A lot better than South Melbourne did for the vast majority of their first 25 odd years in Sydney.

1990 home crowd numbers
11,051
11,472
10,155
8,960
12,551
6,136
10,555
11,722
6,970
5,272
7,180

1992
9,325
8,309
9,226
7,425
12,217
11,132
7,329
15,240
13,265
8,656

1993
10,144
9,023
9,214
9,594
8,794
8,250
13,057
9,756
8,214
8,180

1994
11,068
9,727
9,295
11,142
11,812
12,251
13,083
5,728
6,513
9,622
8,344

Maybe the league should have just dragged Sydney out behind the Brewongle Stand and put them out of their misery.