GWS is the AFL's biggest problem - not North, GC, or Tassie

[Walshawk]

The AFL didn't invent the term "Greater Western Sydney", it was already in use as a government term to describe the group of 13 western LGAs.

The AFL didn't read the room that it wasn't in public use, but the term was never an AFL invention. It may have been somewhat effective though as the Hills Shire (nw) and Macarthur (sw) have two of their biggest membership bases.

I'm perfectly fine with the GWS brand, but I don't like the G branding. I think it looks like a Gatorade ad, and G-Man is a terrible mascot name.

I am aware of that. My point is that no one has ever said or thought that they are from Greater Western Sydney. In practical terms it is not a place that anyone identities with and was a poor choice. Every time on the Sydney news/TV/Radio they mention GWS, they are missing the opportunity to say Western Sydney, which might remind people that there is a team in Western Sydney.

 

[Kwality]

Nah, the Roos officially rejected the GC move in December 2007. Following this, the league registered Western Sydney FC in Jan 2008, and the Commission approved GC & WS as 17th & 18th clubs in March 2008.

I'm talking about the plan approved originally by the Commission. I'll see if I can find anything to support my memory .

 

[speedpeck23]

Wouldn't worry about it Walshawk . There one was a club which joined the VFL many years ago... they never won anything for years and years except the wooden spoon. It was thought by many that they should be kicked out of the comp. Their only redeeming feature was that they were they only team based in the far away eastern suburbs of Melbourne. It took them 32 years to make the finals and 36 years to win a flag. Finally they were successful and became one of the biggest supported teams in the comp. GWS can look at them for inspiration.

 

[madmug]

Swans didn't allow that. Part of the original agreement. NSW Giants would be better than GWS Giants.

OK, not aware of that, very interesting, thanks.

NSW Giants may have been better then.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

More Canberra games? I know people in Canberra who aren't GWS supporters but buy a second membership and go to games there

Homebush = Waverley.
They need to pay more games at the SCG, Swans rivalry be damned

The Canberra games need to end, IMO. Yes, in the short term they add more money than games in WS, but they need to be committed to their prime market. There probably aren't other suitable ovals deeper into western Sydney to take games to, but if there were that would be the place to use a secondary ground rather than Canberra.
If Tassie gets into the AFL (a very big IF) Canberra possibly wouldn't be far behind anyway to get rid of the bye.

 

[Walshawk]

Wouldn't worry about it Walshawk . There one was a club which joined the VFL many years ago... they never won anything for years and years except the wooden spoon. It was thought by many that they should be kicked out of the comp. Their only redeeming feature was that they were they only team based in the far away eastern suburbs of Melbourne. It took them 32 years to make the finals and 36 years to win a flag. Finally they were successful and became one of the biggest supported teams in the comp. GWS can look at them for inspiration.

Not worried about them on field. Hawks crowds were never 20% of the strong clubs’ crowds. Around half perhaps, but our little ground was pretty full most weeks. We have never seen a discrepancy as wide as this between the most popular clubs and the least popular.
If the AFL thought that after 10 years, and despite plenty of on field success, that crowds and ratings would not have increased significantly, there would not be a GWS. It has been a failure so far.
I am not saying we should not have a team in WS. I am saying fix it. Soon.

 

[Canberra Pear]

The Canberra games need to end, IMO. Yes, in the short term they add more money than games in WS, but they need to be committed to their prime market. There probably aren't other suitable ovals deeper into western Sydney to take games to, but if there were that would be the place to use a secondary ground rather than Canberra.
If Tassie gets into the AFL (a very big IF) Canberra possibly wouldn't be far behind anyway to get rid of the bye.

I liked the idea of a greater Blacktown presence, but the idea didn't seem popular on the Giants board.

Blacktown Oval has a 10k capacity and used to be the primary AFLW ground, but now Henson Park seems more popular, and I think the women are soon set to be permanently based at Olympic Park.

Blacktown could currently fit all of this year's men's non-derby crowds. But once crowds are back, it wouldn't take much of an upgrade for Blacktown to be able to host teams like Gold Coast or Freo.

I don't think GWS should be playing any home games at the SCG. It's a ridiculous idea. It would be basically admitting defeat in the west and then just trying to divvy up the east.

 

[Gigantor]

Yes, it's true that the Giants are the AFL's biggest concern. Two years of COVID have basically brought the Giants back to square 1, it's going to be almost like starting from scratch with 4 or 5 years of pain and woeful crowds.

The Swans followed a similar pattern in their first 12 years of existence.

Similarly, when the Giants bounce back, it will be a decent bounce, given they will already be very well known in what remains a pretty crappy sports market, this has to be borne in mind. Sydney is not Melbourne (or Perth or Adelaide for that matter).

The other thing is that if North had taken the offer to re-locate to the Gold Coast, we would still be a 16 team comp, with just one team in Sydney, and we'd be debating whether the AFL was ready to expand to 17 teams with the addition of Tassie.

But North didn't move, and we are where we are, and it's foolhardy for anyone to think the Giants are in any danger from the AFL.

However, a Bears/Lions type scenario might make some sense to HQ.

 

[speedpeck23]

Not worried about them on field. Hawks crowds were never 20% of the strong clubs’ crowds. Around half perhaps, but our little ground was pretty full most weeks. We have never seen a discrepancy as wide as this between the most popular clubs and the least popular.
If the AFL thought that after 10 years, and despite plenty of on field success, that crowds and ratings would not have increased significantly, there would not be a GWS. It has been a failure so far.
I am not saying we should not have a team in WS. I am saying fix it. Soon.

The reason the ground was full was because all the opposition supporters rocked up to see their team smash us. The Hawks didn't have anywhere near the number of supporters as most opposition clubs. Not until the mid 60's did Hawthorn's then Treasurer Phil Ryan convince the VFL to introduce an equalization fund to help financially struggling clubs (of which Hawthorn was one) and then ultimately the VFL ruled that adult membership would only allow admission to home games....so if the opposition was going to turn up to Glenferrie they would have to at least pay for the privilege of seeing their team beat us. Slowly things improved from there.

GWS will have to do the same as any other club.....win matches. The dilemma for them and the AFL is that the big supporter base clubs mainly come from Melbourne....the AFL tries to fixture CARL/Coll/Ess/Rich/Geel all to play in Sydney and Brisbane twice a year..... can't always be engineered.....maybe with Tassie coming in that will help.....eg Tassie can go to play in Freo in WA and Essendon could head to Western Sydney instead of Perth?

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

I don't think GWS should be playing any home games at the SCG. It's a ridiculous idea. It would be basically admitting defeat in the west and then just trying to divvy up the east.

This. Sydney Swans would go off their rockers if this was seriously suggested. They counselled against a second team and the impact on their hard won toe hold in the Sydney market. Relations have been frosty with the AFL for a long time, even with Harley being diplomatic and playing the long game. It would be ice age.

 

[Canberra Pear]

This. Sydney Swans would go off their rockers if this was seriously suggested. They counselled against a second team and the impact on their hard won toe hold in the Sydney market. Relations have been frosty with the AFL for a long time, even with Harley being diplomatic and playing the long game. It would be ice age.

I think the Giants are good for the Swans long-term, but they've got to stick to the west. The west is huge, even a fraction of it is enough for the Giants to survive on. Playing east of Homebush pisses off the Swans and muddies the Giants' identity.

I don't know Sydney geography too well, but I think the Giants women playing at Henson Park is even a bit of an incursion on the east.

 

[madmug]

I think the Giants are good for the Swans long-term, but they've got to stick to the west. The west is huge, even a fraction of it is enough for the Giants to survive on. Playing east of Homebush pisses off the Swans and muddies the Giants' identity.

I don't know Sydney geography too well, but I think the Giants women playing at Henson Park is even a bit of an incursion on the east.

Henson Park is near 10km west of the SCG. Whilst being 21km east of Paramatta. So its inner west, a long way from what one might consider GWS, geographically that is.

 

[Gigantor]

Henson Park is near 10km west of the SCG. Whilst being 21km east of Paramatta. So its inner west, a long way from what one might consider GWS, geographically that is.

I would have thought everywhere West of Ultimo was prime GWS territory.

 

[madmug]

I would have thought everywhere West of Ultimo was prime GWS territory.

Perhaps, but its not GWS geographically.

I bet the people in Leichardt, Drummoyne or even Ashfield don't see themselves as being 'West' or in GWS, certainly not 'Westies'.

 

[RedV3x]

We know the AFL media love a crisis.

And it seems like you do to.

 

[Coolangatta]

I read that Western Sydney has about 10% of the population of Australia, and it's gonna grow, so if they capture 1% of that market, they could become a big club. Apparently, a lot of kids in that area wear the merchandise; give the up-and-coming generation a chance, and we'll see what the membership numbers look like. They might have to reconsider if they're still an on-field disaster by the 2040s, but I doubt they're ever going anywhere.

What should happen now is the termination of the Canberra contract. Play all the games in Western Sydney, same as Gold Coast, play all their home games there. Some Melbourne clubs can pick up extra games in the secondary markets that GWS and GC are covering; they get enough away games in Melbourne to cover the difference.

 

[Walshawk]

I read that Western Sydney has about 10% of the population of Australia, and it's gonna grow, so if they capture 1% of that market, they could become a big club. Apparently, a lot of kids in that area wear the merchandise; give the up-and-coming generation a chance, and we'll see what the membership numbers look like. They might have to reconsider if they're still an on-field disaster by the 2040s, but I doubt they're ever going anywhere.

What should happen now is the termination of the Canberra contract. Play all the games in Western Sydney, same as Gold Coast, play all their home games there. Some Melbourne clubs can pick up extra games in the secondary markets that GWS and GC are covering; they get enough away games in Melbourne to cover the difference.

1% ($20k) is not anywhere near enough to become a big club. They would have around 10K fans now in WS, so they could possibly double over the next 10 - 20 years. But they will still be a very small club. It's such a long haul.

Yes, they need to be Canberra or Western Sydney. At the moment they are neither.

 

[Coolangatta]

1% ($20k) is not anywhere near enough to become a big club. They would have around 10K fans now in WS, so they could possibly double over the next 10 - 20 years. But they will still be a very small club. It's such a long haul.

Yes, they need to be Canberra or Western Sydney. At the moment they are neither.

Another 20 years at least gives them one generation to stamp their mark. If they’re still a very small club, I’d move them to Canberra, unless the ACT makes a serious push/demand to be team 20 between now and then. I wouldn’t be surprised if Tasmania gets up as team 19 that the competition stays on 19 teams for a long time.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Another 20 years at least gives them one generation to stamp their mark. If they’re still a very small club, I’d move them to Canberra, unless the ACT makes a serious push/demand to be team 20 between now and then. I wouldn’t be surprised if Tasmania gets up as team 19 that the competition stays on 19 teams for a long time.

What would be a pass mark in 20 years time?

And would you have them straddling the two markets for that whole 20 years? Or getting a Victorian team to fill the Canberra gap?

 

[Coolangatta]

What would be a pass mark in 20 years time?

And would you have them straddling the two markets for that whole 20 years? Or getting a Victorian team to fill the Canberra gap?

I don’t know. I think it’ll work out in time at any rate. Vic team/s to fill the Canberra gap.

 

[madmug]

Another 20 years at least gives them one generation to stamp their mark. If they’re still a very small club, I’d move them to Canberra, unless the ACT makes a serious push/demand to be team 20 between now and then. I wouldn’t be surprised if Tasmania gets up as team 19 that the competition stays on 19 teams for a long time.

Does a move to Canberra mean they ACT will need to build a new stadium, with a roof?

 

[Canberra Pear]

Does a move to Canberra mean they ACT will need to build a new stadium, with a roof?

I know you're joking, but Canberra actually has pretty dry winters.

Average rainy days March through September:
Hobart: 91.9
Melbourne: 86
Canberra: 55.4

Wouldn't say no to some heated seating though.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Its not a silver bullet, but I reckon there's a case for taking the Illawarra and the Southern Highlands out of the Swans academy zone.

The Swans already have priority access to kids in most of a city of 4m as well as NSW's 2nd biggest city Newcastle.

They don't need the 3rd biggest city, Wollongong, too.

Between the Southern Highlands and the Illawarra you've essentially got the equivalent of the entire population of Tassie.

Give GWS Illawarra, S Highlands, and let them play a couple games in the Gong instead of Canberra. Get the players to do a couple outreach programs with the local kids each year.

Unlike Canberra, people in the Southern Highlands and the Illawarra are actually close enough to Sydney to attend home games at Olympic Park if they're motivated.

I know the current facilities are pretty limited but it would turn into a more beneficial arrangement for the AFL as a whole.

(apologies to any diehard GWS supporters in Canberra who currently make the journey on the regular)

 

[madmug]

I know you're joking, but Canberra actually has pretty dry winters.

Average rainy days March through September:
Hobart: 91.9
Melbourne: 86
Canberra: 55.4

Wouldn't say know to some heated seating though.

Yes. only 1/2.

Not sure where you got your figures from, but according to the BOM, Hobart averages 91.0 rainy days a year ( ie>or= 0.2mm in a day) rain 566mm/year
Canberra has 95.4 such days in a year. rain 588mm/year

So SFA difference & really not much rain in total compared to say Sydney or Brisbane.

None of this warrants a roof in either place. Covered seating, a beanie & a warm jacket is about all thats required (maybe a flask of rum down the sock for medicinal purposes. )

Its just the AFL putting up embarrassingly pathetic road blocks. They just make themselves look stupid. Again

 

[Canberra Pear]

Yes. only 1/2.

Not sure where you got your figures from, but according to the BOM, Hobart averages 91.0 rainy days a year ( ie>or= 0.2mm in a day) rain 566mm/year
Canberra has 95.4 such days in a year. rain 588mm/year

So SFA difference & really not much rain in total compared to say Sydney or Brisbane.

None of this warrants a roof in either place. Covered seating, a beanie & a warm jacket is about all thats required (maybe a flask of rum down the sock for medicinal purposes. )

Its just the AFL putting up embarrassingly pathetic road blocks. They just make themselves look stupid. Again

I got them from the "average precipitation days" on those pretty Wiki climate charts, but only took them from March to September to focus on the footy season.

True though, as long as the roof extends over the fans, I'm okay watching wet weather footy.