Hamstring Injuries - Are We Missing Something?

[sven_inc]

The counter argument is I could take dozens of AFL players with no history of soft tissue injury and find them sitting/standing in similar postures

And that's absolutely a great point. I reference it a little in that poor posture doesn't guarantee anything, but hindsight is relatively clear when trying to go down the rabbit hole of trying to find the base problem.

They may have absolutely no injury history or obvious pain to speak of - and may never, but they will have signs of local stiffness and low back dysfunction. One doesn't garauntee the other but one is likely to create an unnecessary risk that may be exposed athletically whilst the other keeps the system running as it should.

Also, the absence of pain/injury is often our gauge of whether the system is good or not or whether there's a 'problem', except heaps goes on behind the scenes despite "pain".

An easier conversation to base this in is performance. Crappy spinal shapes and low back dysfunction may hurt you or it may not. But it will garauntee that you cant be the best version of yourself althletically.

If your hammy is slightly tight because your back is stiff and sitting posture sucks, you'll never run as fast as you potentially could without it.

Cyril is an amazing athlete, but from what i can see hes potentially an amazing athlete with an unnecessary handbrake on. He could be an even more damaging athlete just by tweaking the non-athletic things he does. Whether he gets injuries or not is another story.

It's not as straightforward as saying you slouch so you will hurt your hammy, but I would almost go as far as to say that if you don't slouch, you'd be seriously unlucky to injure one at any point in your life.

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[sven_inc]

Isn't that a bit like countering "smoking is bad for you" with "I know heaps of smokers that don't have cancer"?

Much more suucint than I clearly put it!

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[estibador]

Where'd you get that pic of Bruce's loungeroom sven?

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

I'll type out a proper post today, but just wanted to say, I really love your observations. I have found many similarities clinically and treat accordingly, but the way you articulate what you find and back it up through photographs and injury reports is fantastic and I'm sure a lot of people are really benefiting from these articles.

 

[The_Ru]

Nice to see some deeper thinking being posted and engaged with on here.

One thing that I do wonder about your central thesis though is how many people have "lower back dysfunction" and to what extent your conclusions are based on a level of unconscious confirmation bias. For example, if 95% of people have some form of lower back dysfunction then it wouldn't be strange that most, if not all, hamstring injuries occur in those with dysfunction. It's just a consequence of the population characteristic, not causal.

Similarly, the posture issue may or may not be significant. I'd be more convinced if you could show that those without hamstring trouble have consistently better posture (everyone sits poorly at some stage). E.g. here's a photo of Brent Harvey who had almost no hamstring trouble;

Overall you may or may not have happened on something significant but I'd want a lot more evidence that there's a difference between good posture and bad posture groups before I'm convinced it's a causal relationship.

[Edit: I see Aeglos has raised similar discussion in a post above]

 

[Percel]

Good advertising, would have read without it.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

Much more suucint than I clearly put it!

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I'm a man of few words

 

[sven_inc]

Where'd you get that pic of Bruce's loungeroom sven?

I dont think anyone's noticed the bruce reference on the table yet...

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[sven_inc]

I'll type out a proper post today, but just wanted to say, I really love your observations. I have found many similarities clinically and treat accordingly, but the way you articulate what you find and back it up through photographs and injury reports is fantastic and I'm sure a lot of people are really benefiting from these articles.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm always uneasy posting these things so it's nice to hear good things. [emoji108]

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[BrockBlitz]

I dont think anyone's noticed the bruce reference on the table yet...

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That is some very nice photo shopping.
Genuine lol

 

[Aeglos]

Isn't that a bit like countering "smoking is bad for you" with "I know heaps of smokers that don't have cancer"?

It is, but the difference is a causal link beteeen smoking and cancer has been proven.
The same cannot be said of any day-to-day posture and any form of musculoskeletal pathology.
The other major difference is we know if a person has adopted smoking after the cancer, where inevitably it's nigh on impossible to determine if an athlete has adopted a posture before or after their injury/dysfunction

 

[BrockBlitz]

It is, but the difference is a causal link beteeen smoking and cancer has been proven.
The same cannot be said of any day-to-day posture and any form of musculoskeletal pathology.
The other major difference is we know if a person has adopted smoking after the cancer, where inevitably it's nigh on impossible to determine if an athlete has adopted a posture before or after their injury/dysfunction

I hear you. I'm a scientist at heart but its nearly impossible to do good quality research on anything like this because people have so many uncontrollable variables. Which is why I am a big believer in anecdotal evidence - not from case by case but by weight of numbers. I think we've discussed before about VMO research and it being widely known the last 20-30 degrees of extension really activates it. Problem is, that none of the research i've read supports that with much authority. However, bodybuilders and physios the world over have had a lot of success with training that range of motion and developing bigger VMOs. Just because the research hasn't been done doesn't make something false. Gravity existed before we figured out what it was and how it worked.

 

[JPetro83]

its very concerning when a 20/21 year old is doing hammy's all the time. Jake Lever has done 3 this year

 

[sven_inc]

It is, but the difference is a causal link beteeen smoking and cancer has been proven.
The same cannot be said of any day-to-day posture and any form of musculoskeletal pathology.
The other major difference is we know if a person has adopted smoking after the cancer, where inevitably it's nigh on impossible to determine if an athlete has adopted a posture before or after their injury/dysfunction

I think the other distinction here is that I have the benefit of testing things in real time to fine tune any assumptions. I can keep what clearly repeatably works and discard what fails.

With the smoking and cancer example - it's kind of like saying that we can't officially prove smoking causes cancer, but in those with cancer we can retrospectively go back, see that everyone smoked, alter the built up effects of smoking (clearly not realistic in the real world) and then see an immediate improvement of the cancer in real time.

I can't officially prove bad spinal shapes may lead to Hamstring injuries, but in those with Hamstring injuries I can see that all seem to get in to bad spinal shapes habitually, improve their spinal function and position and then see an immediate improvement in Hamstring function. Ie. strength, flexibility etc. In those with small strains and not full blown tears I can see an immediate improvement in their ability to use that Hammy without actually touching it yet.

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[sven_inc]

its very concerning when a 20/21 year old is doing hammy's all the time. Jake Lever has done 3 this year

He's a gun.

Check this out... [emoji116]

Again this is just a photo/moment in time and may not be a true representation of his default spinal habits, but he's in a crappy shape here regardless. His Insta is filled less than ideal shapes despite how good of an athlete he is and how good he hopefully will end up being in the AFL...

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[Strapping Young Lad]

sven_inc another excellent thread. Keep it up.

 

[sven_inc]

sven_inc another excellent thread. Keep it up.

You are a gentleman mate cheers.

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[sven_inc]

Thanks for the feature on the front page of BigFooty power's that be. [emoji106]

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[Strapping Young Lad]

Chief

 

[Damon_3388]

Using random photos of Nakia Cockatoo in various situations - cleaning the floor, sitting on a bench, leaning into a photo - to judge his "normal" posture seems a bit strange. Same with a photo of Brent Harvey leaning in to put his arm around his kids. Would hardly think this would be a true representation of anything or good way to judge.

 

[sven_inc]

Using random photos of Nakia Cockatoo in various situations - cleaning the floor, sitting on a bench, leaning into a photo - to judge his "normal" posture seems a bit strange. Same with a photo of Brent Harvey leaning in to put his arm around his kids. Would hardly think this would be a true representation of anything or good way to judge.

I agree. Its impossible to take anything concrete away from it. Its just to hopefully emphasise my point without being able to assess them in real life for myself.

The idea though is to highlight poor shapes. I find that if someone has a tendency to do, they'll do it routinely.

It's a default mechanism.

The one of Cocky sitting on the floor is a tough one as that position almost garauntees a slouch as shown by the other two in the pic who are also in a poor spinal shape. The one of him sitting on the bench is a poor sitting shape and the most relevant. The one bending over highlights the same tendency again as he's hinging through his lower back and not his hips.

Anything is hard to highlight via photos but it speaks to the tendency to be in a bad shape rather than a good one.

Clinically I see that the shapes you get in to the most are the ones you are most likely to default back to when your not thinking about it. If you slouch throughout the day go and run a marathon - it's likely that once you seriously start to fatigue your body will be more likely to default closer to a 'learned' shape than not as it's more efficient. Its why it seems you can sit up tall at the computer once you sit down intiailly, but if you become engrossed in what your doing you can default back to a slouch for the next hour without ever realising. Its not until you practice and train it enough to tell your body that you value that new shape that your body creates a new default and it becomes easier.

If you prioritise good positions, you should see it expressed more often than not. There aren't many pics of Cocky in a good resting spinal shape outside of him standing. Again, it absolutely garauntees nothing, and never will to be honest, but it potentially connects up perfectly with whay I see day to day.



As I've mentioned before, they garauntee nothing but what the one of him sitting on the bench shows a tendency to be in a bad shape.


The one of Boomer leaning over isnt quite highlighting what I'm trying to show.

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[Chief]

Chief

Thanks for the feature on the front page of BigFooty power's that be. [emoji106]

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That would be MrJoel

 

[Taylor]

I'm curious to see if there is a correlation between the rule discouraging players from going to ground over the ball and hamstring injury.

Players keeping their feet and bending down from the waist, pulling up quickly all puts extra load through the posterior chain.

 

[master bate]

Max Gawn had back tightness in round 2. Tore his hamstring tendon in round 3.

Jack Watts had back tightness in the Queens Birthday game. Missed the next few weeks after coming off with hamstring tightness against the Dogs.

I'm pretty sure almost every physio and sports medico knows that bad backs create bad hamstrings. But I did wonder if the Dees this year took too much risk with a couple of tall guys. Then again, they have to balance risk, they can't take every sore player out of a team.

I guess the question your article raised was:
Do clubs do enough to monitor basic sitting posture. I really have no idea, but it's definitely interesting.

 

[master bate]

By the way I also have a dodgy back and overdid it at clinical pilates this morning and now have a tight hammy so you could sell me anything on this. That said....

I'd replace or retrain PE teachers (sorry guys) with core strength and postural training for kids. Swimming is vital. But I never got fitter or better ball skills from a few PE classes a week. In hindsight I'd rather have spent that time learning how to sit properly and fixing my back instead of ruining it with rowing and running horribly at footy training after school.

The majority of us are going to spend hours at desks with poor posture. Parents have lost the sit up straight war, go anywhere with a lot of kids and look at how many of them slouch. Teachers don't/won't/can't care. Sedentary behaviour and obesity probably rule a lot of us out of sport but injuries are probably next after that and I'm convinced core strength and posture etc will result in better running, lifting, riding etc and stop a heap of injuries. Plus it would protect so many adolescents from breaking down as they grow.