Harcourt presentation "bombshell"

[Armchair Critic]

Crikey! Is this the article you are talking about? Some of the comments beneath the article are interesting.

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8648732

1. There is no evidence that EFC were administered CJC or GHRP

2. Dank says he didn't administer anything banned at Cronulla

You are implying in your post that this guy died due to what he was given by Dank (otherwise you wouldn't have linked them in the one sentence). That is a very serious accusation you are making there IanW - heavy stuff mate

I guess he never supplied Earl with any prohibited substances either.

 

[Del65166]

From the Age

"Meanwhile, the AFL will begin monitoring the health of Essendon players. Testing led by the chief medical officer Dr Peter Harcourt will start next week.
The players were involved in the Bombers' controversial supplements program in 2011-12.
"It's a proper process being worked through with the club led by Peter Harcourt, and it's an appropriate response," McLachlan said"

Wow?
testing by Harcourt?

is he going to take their blood again send it to Europe again & and see if he can get a positive result this time? got another O/S conference lined up maybe?

Or since they were given AOD is he going to check their skin folds?

Interesting timing of this statement by McLachlan too..is it to remind us all that the AFL care more about the players than the clubs do...a day or 2 before a court hearing where dirty laundry could be aired.

 

[blackcat]

Latching on to anything you can.

The fact that Judd said it was like the East German swim team, we just take what we are told, should ... and I say this with not much confidence .... should tell most his tongue was firmly in his cheek.

Carlton are no different to any other club. You don't tell your opponents what your supplements are.

There also seems to be some confusion as to why show cause notices are issued. There has to be some evidence of a banned substance around the club. I'm pretty sure Essendon players did not get show cause notices because they don't know what they took.

TODN, this was just from the limited hangout school of propaganda.

this tells you what really occurs
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/peyton-manning-and-hgh.1120329/page-4#post-42947636

like Spida Everitt knowing the different between oral and oil based steroids, a clean athlete has no case to know this, CJ knowing about the testosterone carbon isotope C12 v C13, oil based and planted based exogenous compound, the guy has no case to know this.

An intelligent person one would ask, why would sportsmen, purported clean sportsmen and athletes, why would they have reason to know doping esoterica?

you don't come to know doping esoterica for any other reason than <Jan Ullrich doping aphorism for dopes if you cant add two plus two together I can't help you>

 

[blackcat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout ...propaganda technique that involves the release of previously hidden information in order to prevent a greater exposure of more important details.
It takes the form of deception, misdirection, or coverup often associated with intelligence agencies involving a release or "mea culpa" type of confession of only part of a set of previously hidden sensitive information, that establishes credibility for the one releasing the information who by the very act of confession appears to be "coming clean" and acting with integrity; but in actuality, by withholding key facts, is protecting a deeper operation and those who could be exposed if the whole truth came out.
In effect, if an array of offenses or misdeeds is suspected, this confession admits to a lesser offense while covering up the greater ones.

 

[ShanDog]

TODN, this was just from the limited hangout school of propaganda.

this tells you what really occurs
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/peyton-manning-and-hgh.1120329/page-4#post-42947636

like Spida Everitt knowing the different between oral and oil based steroids, a clean athlete has no case to know this, CJ knowing about the testosterone carbon isotope C12 v C13, oil based and planted based exogenous compound, the guy has no case to know this.

An intelligent person one would ask, why would sportsmen, purported clean sportsmen and athletes, why would they have reason to know doping esoterica?

you don't come to know doping esoterica for any other reason than <Jan Ullrich doping aphorism for dopes if you cant add two plus two together I can't help you>

Illogical jumps are illogical.

 

[blackcat]

Illogical jumps are illogical.

2+2

why would someone know about the carbon isotope ratio difference in endogenous testosterone and exogenous testosterone?
why would some know how the half-life difference in an oil based steroid with a hypodermic transmission method, versus an oral steroid?
this is doping esoterica.
why would Joe Blow know this Ancient Tiger ? btw, Ancient, have you had any professional dealings as colleague with Harcourt?

Was he the Geelong doc who then become the affal chief doc, then I thought this doc went onto the Board at KArdinia? I could be conflating three different individuals, I am aware that ColinCarter the current Chair was also on the board of the affal and at Boston Consulting, but I don't think this has informed this particular doctor memory(recall). Affal is so incestuous, see how the Boston Consulting alumni at affal house, and then Carter's transitions, I think he was the Australian operations managing partner of BC.

medusala BC the dull science consultants?

 

[Ancient Tiger]

2+2

why would someone know about the carbon isotope ratio difference in endogenous testosterone and exogenous testosterone?
why would some know how the half-life difference in an oil based steroid with a hypodermic transmission method, versus an oral steroid?
this is doping esoterica.
why would Joe Blow know this Ancient Tiger ? btw, Ancient, have you had any professional dealings as colleague with Harcourt?

Was he the Geelong doc who then become the affal chief doc, then I thought this doc went onto the Board at KArdinia? I could be conflating three different individuals, I am aware that ColinCarter the current Chair was also on the board of the affal and at Boston Consulting, but I don't think this has informed this particular doctor memory(recall). Affal is so incestuous, see how the Boston Consulting alumni at affal house, and then Carter's transitions, I think he was the Australian operations managing partner of BC.

medusala BC the dull science consultants?

HAHA!
No, I haven't had professional dealings with Dr. Harcourt.
The only things we have in common is we both heard Essendon were being given HGH releasing substances......

 

[ShanDog]

2+2

why would someone know about the carbon isotope ratio difference in endogenous testosterone and exogenous testosterone?
why would some know how the half-life difference in an oil based steroid with a hypodermic transmission method, versus an oral steroid?
this is doping esoterica.
why would Joe Blow know this Ancient Tiger ? btw, Ancient, have you had any professional dealings as colleague with Harcourt?

Was he the Geelong doc who then become the affal chief doc, then I thought this doc went onto the Board at KArdinia? I could be conflating three different individuals, I am aware that ColinCarter the current Chair was also on the board of the affal and at Boston Consulting, but I don't think this has informed this particular doctor memory(recall). Affal is so incestuous, see how the Boston Consulting alumni at affal house, and then Carter's transitions, I think he was the Australian operations managing partner of BC.

medusala BC the dull science consultants?

The most logical and also simple answer is that Judd was paid for opinion and is an intelligent man. In that situation, it's expected he research things particularly if it's related to his job.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

TODN, this was just from the limited hangout school of propaganda.

this tells you what really occurs
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/peyton-manning-and-hgh.1120329/page-4#post-42947636

like Spida Everitt knowing the different between oral and oil based steroids, a clean athlete has no case to know this, CJ knowing about the testosterone carbon isotope C12 v C13, oil based and planted based exogenous compound, the guy has no case to know this.

An intelligent person one would ask, why would sportsmen, purported clean sportsmen and athletes, why would they have reason to know doping esoterica?

you don't come to know doping esoterica for any other reason than <Jan Ullrich doping aphorism for dopes if you cant add two plus two together I can't help you>

A reply some 20 months later. I'm struggling to know what you are trying to say here. Judd made a joke about the blue powder and the Chinese swim team and I was reiterating that it was clearly a joke.

No propaganda from me there and unless you are stating that Judd's joke was masking something more sinister, I'm not sure why you quoted me.

 

[blackcat]

The Old Dark Navy's

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...stions-before-the-answer-20150519-gh5268.html

here are the lines where Judd is saying something when you have to interpret them through a different lens

and a Jake Niall article quoting Judd http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...nts-program-20140326-zqn7s.html#ixzz3zojX6kfW


if anyone would ask me to translate what CJudd really means, ask politely

but <think> Spida Everitt mid-90s on Footy Show talking about Justin Charles the doping cheat from Footscray who played minor minor minor league baseball in buses across middle america in the AAAAAA- league or the BBBBBBBBB league, then came back and doped some more with Footscray those cheating doggies b@sterds you just cant trust em
and... Spida talking doping esoterica why Justin Charles did not just use an oral steroid and why did he pin(inject) and oil-based steroid.
allowing plebs to glimpse some esoterica when you are attempting to engage in PR and propaganda is about as big a fail as Dane Swann's too smart cant catch me tweet, but Swann atleast was never trying to do PR and propaganda, he was just talking smack to ASADA


ShanDog there is zero reason for Chris Judd to have any inquiry into exogenous testosterone, and in that, you have caught yourself in a catch22 in two versions. the first is, your transference/projection on value judgements wrt PEDs, and in doing so, you have indicted yourself and individual players and entire sports leagues.

His piece in Fairfax was PR, and a counterweight the AFL "supplements" and PED saga. Usually it is left to Caro to weigh in on the succour moms talking points, and good people talking points, if not her, Luke "Charters" Darcy at the least. Not Judd. But Judd carries significant weight.

The other thing is, he has no reason to know about exogenous testosterone and carbon isotope 12 and carbon isotope 13. It may be carbon isotope 11 and carbon isotope 12. I cannot remember this test, it is my recall from the Floyd Landis saga that carried into 2007, from stage 16 in 2006.

You really think he is to know about soy extract for the particalar carbon that the plant based exogenous testosterone uses in the pharmaceutical manufacturing process versus the endogenous carbon isotope ratio that metabolites from a clean athlete that are in the urine?

I suppose you think the bodybuilding gym owner, Tony Doherty, and bodybuilding competitions promoter, I suppose it is merely a happy coincidence that he is the strength and conditioning trainer at Carlton in the early 2000s, among other dodgy characters like Matt Barber and Charter and Dank and Robinson...

Shandog,
two plus two. kindergarten economics brah

 

[blackcat]

The most logical and also simple answer is that Judd was paid for opinion and is an intelligent man. In that situation, it's expected he research things particularly if it's related to his job.

illogical. PR and propaganda.

in poker terminology, this was an overt tell.

 

[blackcat]

HAHA!
No, I haven't had professional dealings with Dr. Harcourt.
The only things we have in common is we both heard Essendon were being given HGH releasing substances......

Swannie had that in common with you folks too. But for Swannie, tis a bit early for the mid-life crisis and the youth and vitality and rejuvenation clinix[sic]

 

[blackcat]

A reply some 20 months later. I'm struggling to know what you are trying to say here. Judd made a joke about the blue powder and the Chinese swim team and I was reiterating that it was clearly a joke.

No propaganda from me there and unless you are stating that Judd's joke was masking something more sinister, I'm not sure why you quoted me.

ODN, answer why the 20monthold reply.

I wanted the antecedent on the "blue powder". I thought it was serious when it was tossed around recently on the forum, I had no touchstone and context, so I did a search for the first post on "blue powder"

But, there was a dope-test avoidance technique, where a person tested would put a detergent over themself(selves), and in this case, it was called "protease/protese", not sure if this was the detergent brand, or detergent pharmacological compound, or what it was, and they would put it on their fingers, then piss on their fingers into the little bottle/capsule, or just dip their finger into the urine, and bingo, all metabolites would be destroyed by the time it was tested by the mass spec gas chromatography machine..

Champion Data founder Ted Hopkins said at Carlton in late sixties he was given a pill to put on weight, (an oral steroid?), and Don Scott said at Hawks they knew which teammates were on something at the pre Grand Final breakfast three years back with Luke Ball and Elle McFeast(Libby Gore)... but doping was allowed in the AFL up to Ross Oakley's time.

#novaluejudgements so dont transfer the socially engineered construct about sport and purity

 

[ShanDog]

illogical. PR and propaganda.

in poker terminology, this was an overt tell.

The Old Dark Navy's

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...stions-before-the-answer-20150519-gh5268.html

here are the lines where Judd is saying something when you have to interpret them through a different lens

and a Jake Niall article quoting Judd http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...nts-program-20140326-zqn7s.html#ixzz3zojX6kfW


if anyone would ask me to translate what CJudd really means, ask politely

but <think> Spida Everitt mid-90s on Footy Show talking about Justin Charles the doping cheat from Footscray who played minor minor minor league baseball in buses across middle america in the AAAAAA- league or the BBBBBBBBB league, then came back and doped some more with Footscray those cheating doggies b@sterds you just cant trust em
and... Spida talking doping esoterica why Justin Charles did not just use an oral steroid and why did he pin(inject) and oil-based steroid.
allowing plebs to glimpse some esoterica when you are attempting to engage in PR and propaganda is about as big a fail as Dane Swann's too smart cant catch me tweet, but Swann atleast was never trying to do PR and propaganda, he was just talking smack to ASADA


ShanDog there is zero reason for Chris Judd to have any inquiry into exogenous testosterone, and in that, you have caught yourself in a catch22 in two versions. the first is, your transference/projection on value judgements wrt PEDs, and in doing so, you have indicted yourself and individual players and entire sports leagues.

His piece in Fairfax was PR, and a counterweight the AFL "supplements" and PED saga. Usually it is left to Caro to weigh in on the succour moms talking points, and good people talking points, if not her, Luke "Charters" Darcy at the least. Not Judd. But Judd carries significant weight.

The other thing is, he has no reason to know about exogenous testosterone and carbon isotope 12 and carbon isotope 13. It may be carbon isotope 11 and carbon isotope 12. I cannot remember this test, it is my recall from the Floyd Landis saga that carried into 2007, from stage 16 in 2006.

You really think he is to know about soy extract for the particalar carbon that the plant based exogenous testosterone uses in the pharmaceutical manufacturing process versus the endogenous carbon isotope ratio that metabolites from a clean athlete that are in the urine?

I suppose you think the bodybuilding gym owner, Tony Doherty, and bodybuilding competitions promoter, I suppose it is merely a happy coincidence that he is the strength and conditioning trainer at Carlton in the early 2000s, among other dodgy characters like Matt Barber and Charter and Dank and Robinson...

Shandog,
two plus two. kindergarten economics brah

The only way any of this makes sense is if you are working from the basis that knowledge = guilt. This is a huge fallacy.

Kindergarten logos brah...

 

[blackcat]

The only way any of this makes sense is if you are working from the basis that knowledge = guilt. This is a huge fallacy.

Kindergarten logos brah...

tabula rasa, p'raps.

but this is not blank slate, this is pro sport dude, and affal

 

[ShanDog]

tabula rasa, p'raps.

but this is not blank slate, this is pro sport dude, and affal

Your argument is fine and entirely possible, but it's a stretch.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Again, none of this alters the fact that Judd had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he spoke of the magic blue powder and drew comparisons to the Chinese swim team.

 

[Linda Lovelace]

I think I agree with blackcat, but then again as far as I can understand him, I could just be supporting his stance on the joys of committing hate crimes.

 

[ShanDog]

I think I agree with blackcat, but then again as far as I can understand him, I could just be supporting his stance on the joys of committing hate crimes.

Haha my point of contention is that his logic applied to another situation (which doesn't invalidate it as such) is a patrol police officer knowing all about the production method of creating methamphetamines. That doesn't mean he is guilty of making it. It's just related to his job and he has thoroughly researched it or been educated on the subject.

 

[blackcat]

Haha my point of contention is that his logic applied to another situation (which doesn't invalidate it as such) is a patrol police officer knowing all about the production method of creating methamphetamines. That doesn't mean he is guilty of making it. It's just related to his job and he has thoroughly researched it or been educated on the subject.

you failed logic in philo101 no?

how does one transpose such an analogy meth cooks and ice chef'ery like Bryan Cranston or Walter White and the popo, or is it the po-po, the cops, the jacks, being across their brief, to knowing how exogenous testo precursors are combined to make the pharmaceutical grade soy protein carbon isotope number 11, or is it number 12, or is it the thirteenth carbon isotope, well, we need to ask Chris Judd and CuttingEdgeMuscle, and all the people behind the Floyd LAndis defense from the sixteenth stage in the tour de france. An athlete as you understand an athlete, has no reason to know, learn, and understand doping paraphenalia and esoterica. Lets not get mealy mouthed and say he was paid to write for Fairfax and he is a professional and he learnt. The is risible. So why does Spida Everitt in 1997 on the Footy Show, say 'why did Justin Charles of Footscray not take an oral steroid versus pinning(injecting with hypodermic) an oil based steroid presumably as Spida knows the half-life of an oral steroid, or particular oral steroids. It will really fukc with your liver as Ancient Tiger will tell you and warn you off. Or, without using mr googles, I could have got it arse backkwards, but I think I am correct, the oral transmission is really likely to fukc with your liver like an also with jaundice and yellow skin pleonasm

There is but one single reason why an athlete will seek out doping esoterica.

I dont judge athletes going about their profession, nor do I presume how they need to conduct their affairs with respect to their profession. But some folks really need to switch on their cognitive faculties and mature to a sentient being.

In defense of the athlete (this is generic), most actually seek to compete on the level, or more level playing field, without having to take dope. There are only a few who will willing take dope for an edge. And in this sphere and opinion about fairplay and purity, the board is overwhelmingly in this corner. and that is what Judd says in his own article (not the JAke Niall article, or I coulda got it arse backwards again), about seeking to neutralise other athletes who wish to take an edge over them, the clean athletes must be protected, and protected when they only wish to narrow the gap over other athletes taking proactive means to gain an edge over the field by doping.

I think Martin Hardie in his paper, I Wish I Was Twenty-One Today! mentioned this as the overwhelming sentiment of young cyclists. That said, normalisation of PEDs, and especially cycling, which is so PED driven wrt performance, the doping becomes a rights-of-passage, and a bad faith (JPS), that a youth needs to imbibe to be a cyclist.
http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/21-NOW-FINAL-.pdf

 

[blackcat]

I think I agree with blackcat, but then again as far as I can understand him, I could just be supporting his stance on the joys of committing hate crimes.

my stance was only wrt PEDs Linda Lovelace and not morally relativist on a universal perspective. Only wrt doping in pro sport, I feel the athlete is in a no-win situation wrt this. They need to toe the line on the motherhood statements with respect to anti-doping. It is social engineering writ large. Lance Armstrong may not be a nice person, but he was hung-drawn and quartered for doing everything that everyone else was doing. He may have gamed the system, but none of his competitors thought he was cheating?

If none of his competitors thought he was cheating, was he cheating? Or was everyone cheating. One could argue, that doping is a significant entry price(barrier to entry), preventing competition for those who do not wish to accede to such a threshold. so what you are watching, is a selective sample. You are not watching the sample who chose not to take the plunge with respect to artificial performance enhancers. And this is what Hardie's thesis motif intimates I wish I was 21 today, and what Judd was writing about wrt supporting anti-doping. http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/21-NOW-FINAL-.pdf

One must peel back the layers and know the exigencies and the dilemma the athlete finds himself, or herself in.

Here, if Armstrong was a nice guy, he would not have been r*ped over the coals /torturedmetaphor
If Maria Sugar Pova was American, she would not have been busted.

Its politics stupid.

 

[blackcat]

Again, none of this alters the fact that Judd had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he spoke of the magic blue powder and drew comparisons to the Chinese swim team.

I was just attempting to find the first source here.
And this realised he was taking the piss. no pun.

but, as I said with Protease, there is a reference that Judd may have, or may not have, been aware of. I think it was the Ahmed Saad joke from St Kilda last year when he talked about a steroid.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/detergent-enzyme-to-mask-epo-ullrich-named/
enzyme in the detergent.

Detergent enzyme to mask EPO? Ullrich named

Urine samples being tested for EPO are supposed to show a certain amount of EPO, which is naturally...

Urine samples being tested for EPO are supposed to show a certain amount of EPO, which is naturally produced in the body. But what if the sample shows absolutely none? This is happening more and more frequently, according to the Neue Züricher Zeitung, and allegedly some cyclists are using some sort of powder to affect their urine tests. The paper reports that Swiss TV SF1 has identified this powder as protease, an enzyme in laundry detergent which usually works as a stain remover, giving a whole new twist to the term "racing clean". And a familiar big name is mentioned in association with the new problem - Jan Ullrich.

The theory goes this way: The athlete puts a little of the powder in the pockets of his pants. Before urinating, he puts his fingers into it, and urinates over his fingers at the control, so that the enzyme is mixed with his urine in the container. This little amount is sufficient to destroy the protein, and therefore the EPO, in the urine. "Protease is simply easy to use, cheap and available without prescription - and thus an almost perfect aid for the deceptive athlete," says the NZZ.
...snip... read more on the link.​

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So Judd sought to educate himself on some of the drug terminology in order to write about it, which means he was obviously on the gear and using the article as an alibi in a sense .... 'why would I publically give an insight into what I knew if I was really on the gear?'

I've read you come from a place where everybody is potentially on the gear BC. It's the wording of being in the know regarding individuals and the rude dismissal and intelligence jibes towards others who rightly contest your conspiracy theories that ruins the discussion IMO. The place is too big to batter everybody into submission.

 

[blackcat]

HAHA!
No, I haven't had professional dealings with Dr. Harcourt.
The only things we have in common is we both heard Essendon were being given HGH releasing substances......

Ancient, I know where I saw Harcourt, has he been the NSW cricket team doc, and was he the doc on the ground when Phil Hughes copped the bouncer and almost passed away on the field before the ambos and the emergency docs in hospital induced the coma. I am nnow 99% sure, it is in this context that I have seen his face popping up on the ABC and at cricket, thus, I was getting it conflated with the Geelong doc, who I think was the affal chief medico, he may have, or may not have, been petitioning for a spot on the board at Kardinia. so not the harcourt I was thinking of, who was cricket.

 

[blackcat]

So Judd sought to educate himself on some of the drug terminology in order to write about it, which means he was obviously on the gear and using the article as an alibi in a sense .... 'why would I publically give an insight into what I knew if I was really on the gear?'

if people wish to be gullible, go right ahead and be my guest. It is a much more comfortable place, the environs of the succour moms. Even 61_99 has lifted the veil.

go 61!

jenny61_99