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Opinion Heath Shaw return

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MarkT2 said:
Rubbish!
He was Collingwood through and through and we knew what he was and what we would get. He was as much a victim of the failed regime and culture change as he was a victim of his personality. The fact is you will get all types in a footy club and you need a selection of characters. I doubt a team has won a flag with 22 coach disciples let alone a whole list full. The Leading Teams and culture change initiative decimated a premiership list and we still have a hell of a long way to go just to get anywhere near parity.
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Leading Teams is another subject, independent of Heater's behaviour which, as you say, was a problem well before we had even won a flag. I'm not buying into that strawman.

We all know about Heater's behaviour over several years. If you want to excuse it, that's your prerogative.
 
MarkT2 said:
Rubbish!
He was Collingwood through and through and we knew what he was and what we would get. He was as much a victim of the failed regime and culture change as he was a victim of his personality. The fact is you will get all types in a footy club and you need a selection of characters. I doubt a team has won a flag with 22 coach disciples let alone a whole list full. The Leading Teams and culture change initiative decimated a premiership list and we still have a hell of a long way to go just to get anywhere near parity.
Click to expand...
I think the thing to remember is that Buckley took over a list that had been beaten in the Grand Final the year before. The list was on the decline.

In 2012 he changed little but we continued to slip. When he started making more drastic changes in 2013, we no longer had a list in premiership contention.
 
Justlokan said:
If we had to choose I'd take Lids. But the best choice is not to take the salary dump and pick up kids in the so-called super draft
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That's why I said a bogus pick... like a 4th or 5th rounder. By then the super draft becomes Carlton draught.

Theoretically would only consider it as Shaw's still playing good footy, only on a 1 year deal, and we are now a top 6-8 side.... have a good September and who knows what can happen
 
Dynamics said:
Leading Teams is another subject, independent of Heater's behaviour which, as you say, was a problem well before we had even won a flag. I'm not buying into that strawman.

We all know about Heater's behaviour over several years. If you want to excuse it, that's your prerogative.
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No it isn't. It, together with the rational for using them, is the reason it fell apart for the club. It is not coincidental that it all coincided with Shaw's issues which themselves were over stated. He had a melt down in a final that was incredibly frustrating all round. He's always been a bit erratic off field. So were Didak and Swan. Off field doesn't worry me that much. I'm not excusing anything because I actually think it is largely irrelevent. De Goey probably wouldn't have survived that same period at Collingwood. The only off field incident that really dissapoited with Shaw was he betting suspension and noone seems to hold it against Maxwell.
 

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MarkT2 said:
No it isn't. It, together with the rational for using them, is the reason it fell apart for the club. It is not coincidental that it all coincided with Shaw's issues which themselves were over stated. He had a melt down in a final that was incredibly frustrating all round. He's always been a bit erratic off field. So were Didak and Swan. Off field doesn't worry me that much. I'm not excusing anything because I actually think it is largely irrelevent. De Goey probably wouldn't have survived that same period at Collingwood. The only off field incident that really dissapoited with Shaw was he betting suspension and noone seems to hold it against Maxwell.
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Again, Heater's "issues" started YEARS before Leading Teams. If you want to call them being "a bit erratic", that's up to you. I disagree.

You have an agenda. Fine.
 
jmac70 said:
I think the thing to remember is that Buckley took over a list that had been beaten in the Grand Final the year before. The list was on the decline.

In 2012 he changed little but we continued to slip. When he started making more drastic changes in 2013, we no longer had a list in premiership contention.
Click to expand...
The list that lost the GF had the most successful H&A season in Collingwood history. 2011 was our first premiership defense since the 1930s. It wasn't on the decline, it lost focus as did the entire club, with the succession controversy. As it was we were probably a move of Tarrant onto Hawkins away from winning back to back flags. We made a prelim the next year with 5 season ending injuries and lost to the premierers after a funeral of an ex team mate on the Thursday. Even if there was some decline it was 100% redeemable with recruiting - see Hawthorn in that same period.

We fell apart from our own doing and Shaw's exit was part of that and symptomatic of it.
 
jmac70 said:
I think the thing to remember is that Buckley took over a list that had been beaten in the Grand Final the year before. The list was on the decline.

In 2012 he changed little but we continued to slip. When he started making more drastic changes in 2013, we no longer had a list in premiership contention.
Click to expand...

Yes this is completely true.

The 2010/11 list was not as good for the long term as we thought at the time. Buckley gave it a year, made a prelim, and then commenced a rebuild after the club had spent 3-5 years at or near the top. He was ahead of the curve....he could see what others couldnt. Some still cant see that.

Johnson Maxwell Ball Jolly Davis L Brown Didak Toovey Tarrant Krakouer were nearing the ends of their careers
Reid proved to be injury prone
N Brown Maccaffer Dawes Blair Fasolo all proved to be not quite as good as they seemed at the time
Wellingham and O'Brien did nothing at their new clubs and the club was right to trade them.
Beams left for well documented reasons and the high trade value from him is also well documented
Shaw left for well documented reasons and the high trade value from him is also well documented
Thomas left for well documented reasons and the high trade FA compensation from him is also well documented.
Cloke went downhill fast as the game changed and he couldnt change with it.
The young VFL depth (the supposed future of the club) was non existent as veterans or players who didnt make it like OBree Fraser Medhurst Wood Lockyer Cook Anthony Dick Buckley Keeffe Rounds McCarthy Thoolen Barham and Presti etc etc ect were filling up many of these places. In fact I'm not sure I can name a single player from that VFL list who is now an established senior player at the club. (edit...found one...Josh Thomas...and he has his own special story that didnt exactly help our rebuild).
Goldsack has been good.
That leaves Swan Pendlebury and Sidebottom as absolute elite.

I wouldnt change a thing Collingwood did in exiting these players, except arguably Shaw. I dont even regret losing Beams.

Of course the rebuild had some hiccups with some dud trades and draft picks and some early injuries to the likes of Shaz and Sier but the club stuck fast and is starting to now get somewhere.

In summary the theory that Buckley inherited a great list is a crock of shit. Their younger premiership players were not as good as thought, their VFL next generation depth was non existent, many of their best players were late in their careers, some precocious young stars were out of control wallowing in their own egos, whilst others were set back by injury.

Leading Teams is a side (non) issue.
 
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Timmy from Thomastown said:
Yes this is completely true.

The 2010/11 list was not as good for the long term as we thought at the time. Buckley gave it a year, made a prelim, and then commenced a rebuild after the club had spent 3-5 years at or near the top. He was ahead of the curve....he could see what others couldnt. Some still cant see that.

Johnson Maxwell Ball Jolly Davis L Brown Didak Toovey Tarrant Krakouer were nearing the ends of their careers
Reid proved to be injury prone
N Brown Maccaffer Dawes Blair Fasolo all proved to be not quite as good as they seemed at the time
Wellingham and O'Brien did nothing at their new clubs and the club was right to trade them.
Beams left for well documented reasons and the high trade value from him is also well documented
Shaw left for well documented reasons and the high trade value from him is also well documented
Thomas left for well documented reasons and the high trade FA compensation from him is also well documented.
Cloke went downhill fast as the game changed and he couldnt change with it.
The young VFL depth (the supposed future of the club) was non existent as veterans or players who didnt make it like OBree Fraser Medhurst Wood Lockyer Cook Anthony Dick Buckley Keeffe Rounds McCarthy Thoolen Barham and Presti etc etc ect were filling up many of these places. In fact I'm not sure I can name a single player from that VFL list who is now an established senior player at the club. (edit...found one...Josh Thomas...and he has his own special story that didnt exactly help our rebuild).
Goldsack has been good.
That leaves Swan Pendlebury and Sidebottom as absolute elite.

I wouldnt change a thing Collingwood did in exiting these players, except arguably Shaw. I dont even regret losing Beams.

Of course the rebuild had some hiccups with some dud trades and draft picks and some early injuries to the likes of Shaz and Sier but the club stuck fast and is starting to now get somewhere.

In summary the theory that Buckley inherited a great list is a crock of shit. Their younger premiership players were not as good as thought, their VFL next generation depth was non existent, many of their best players were late in their careers, some precocious young stars were out of control wallowing in their own egos, whilst others were set back by injury.

Leading Teams is a side (non) issue.
Click to expand...
You should re-post in the Buckley thread.
 

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