help a brother out

[kranky al]

someone on the main board posted an excellent debunking of the myth that we were given a huge advantage in the wce formative years - esp 92 gf


i was wondering if anyone could provide a link to that post as i wish to bash a freo flog over the head with it.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

I've seen Quinz do that a couple of times - maybe search through his posts.

 

[bodazoka]

Your Fremantle mate sounds like the sort of guy who could get a power point presentation by Andrew Demetrio about our inception and still walk away thinking we were gifted a state side...

Some bloke the other day was telling me we were given millions of dollars??

 

[Underdog]

Here's one

A WA state side?

In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.

Of the 22 in that side, the following players were on the Eagles list at the start of 1987:

Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson. Thats 10.

The 12 players who werent on our list were Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.

In other words the Eagles got the fringe players left after the VFL teams took the cream.

Of those 10 players, precisely one played in a Premiership for West Coast (Dwayne Lamb). 2 of the players who went to Victoria were subsequently traded back to West Coast (in normal trade deals) and both played in premiership sides (Wilson 92, 94 & Harding 92).

The following West Australians (off the top of my head) were playing for other VFL sides in 1987:

Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis etc

So apart from those 22 and the 12 from our SOO side of 86 (thats 34 players by the way) West Coasts initial list of 37 was a state side

In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52. It is true that we had first choice of WAFL players at the end of 1986 but this was only after the other sides had delayed the entry of the Eagles so that players including Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean, were first signed by VFL teams before the Eagles were granted a licence. So we got the best 37 players from the WAFL after the best 10 from 1986 were already signed up by Vic clubs. Given that 10 players from WA would be a good number in the annual draft, the balance were essentially the leftovers, late round picks if you like.

At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.

At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession )

In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.

1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.

The Eagles pre-draft picks and the concessions on WAFL picks (one per club) were to compensate for the Eagles having a smaller list than other clubs (15 players less) and to allow that list to be lifted up over a 5 year period to limit damage that would be inflicted on the WAFL if they had just allowed 50 in year one + unlimited drafts thereafter. It wasnt a concession as such, it was a drip system to allow us to build our list to the same size as other clubs over an extended period and limit WAFL damage. The Eagles last pre-draft pick was in 1991. Remember, these picks werent the number 1 pick in Australia but rather the best player in WA from a comp that had been decimated - and has never recovered.

The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.

West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.

We were nowhere near gifted a state side. A state side was the 35+ gun WA players running around for other sides in 1987.

I mean imagine is we had started with a real state side:

Leon Baker, Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Phil Krakouer, Jim Krakouer, Nicky Winmar, Brad Hardie, Simon Beasley, Earl Spalding, Peter Sartori, Andrew Purser, Ken Hunter, Wayne Blackwell, Mark Bairstow, Rod Lester-Smith, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Michael Christian, Michael Mitchell, etc

Then you would have had something to whinge about!

By the way, Linga is a complete tosspot and I have no idea why the mods allow him to continue on this or any other board.

Apologies for the long post but thought it might help....

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12740249#post12740249

Another...

Lets address this state squad crap shall we:

In 1986, WA played in 2 state games (including one of the best against Victoria at Subi). The earlier game against SA was picked from WAFL players and the big game v the Vics was full State of Origin.

The Eagles initial squad brought together in 1986 was made up of "the pick of WAFL players" + some guys who came home. Of the squad of 35, 8 had played State of Origin (Lamb, Miles, Glendinning, Narkle, Davidson, Laidley, Keene, MacNish and 2 others had played in the State game v SA, Wiley & Malaxos).

Interestingly, the following players played WAFL in 1986 and didnt end up at the Eagles (even though they were State players) due to either previously signing with a VFL team (the old letter of offer) or signed due to uncertainty about the Eagles (i.e. whether they would be let in): Harding, Wilson, Mitchell, Bairstow, Sartori, Dean, Bewick, Winmar. Wouldn't have improved the initial Eagles would they?

So we had 10 state players of our initial squad of 35 (Note: other VFL clubs had 50 players and it is my understanding that Carlton & Hawthorn already had more than 10 state players each at that time - although they werent all Victorians!). Maybe, their premierships of 1987, 1988, 1989 and 1991 should be asterisked as they had State 'All-Star" sides?

Of the 10 state players in the squad they did the following:

Glendinning - was already 30 and played 2 seasons (i.e. was gone by 1989)
Lamb - Was the only "state" player who played in a premiership for the Eagles
Miles - Journeyman, ended up at Geelong and played in losing GF
Narkle - Played 18 games in total
Davidson - Played 2 games (due to injury retired early)
Laidley - A good player who became a fringe player and was traded to NM
Keene - Struggled with injuries
MacNish - A player who struggled as soon as Malthouse arrived.
Wiley - Was 32 when we started, played one season. Was a good player at Richmond 5+ years earlier
Malaxos - A solid player, was gone by the time we won a flag.

So of our state players, there was only 1 who ever played in a premiership for the Eagles. Of the initial squad of 35, there were 6 who eventually played in a premiership for the club, these were Dwayne Lamb and a number of y
youngish players in the WAFL who the Eagles took a punt on: Brennan, Lewis, Hart, Mainwaring & Worsfold. We also took a punt on other legends such as: King, Mifka, Bartlett, Warwick etc etc. In other words, you win some you lose some.

The Eagles side was subsequently built around the draft and trades. We did get some pre-draft picks and we had a pretty good record with those. However, any suggestion that we were a state squad/team from day 1 simply doesnt stand up to scrutiny.

Cheers

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4562044#post4562044

 

[kranky al]

cant seem to find it amongst quins posts his is similar in vein but the one im on about was a greatly detailed dismantlement of the myth - anyone seen in anywhere


im pretty crap at forum searches - there must be some trick to them thats different to google because i can never find what i want on forums

edit: didnt see the post above me

 

[SuperSub]

I remember seeing a thread - I think it might have been in the Bay a few weeks back, and that it may have been started by an Adelaide supporter. It contained a link to a Fox Sports program telling the story of how The Eagles were born and the hardships they encountered in their early years. Can't remember what the thread was called, but it was very informative and a real eye opener.

 

[geejay76]

I remember seeing a thread - I think it might have been in the Bay a few weeks back, and that it may have been started by an Adelaide supporter. It contained a link to a Fox Sports program telling the story of how The Eagles were born and the hardships they encountered in their early years. Can't remember what the thread was called, but it was very informative and a real eye opener.

This.

Fox Footy had a special called "Birth of the West Coast Eagles" - I found it on YouTube so I'm sure it's still around.

 

[kranky al]

@underdog - thats the one - legendary cheers

 

[swannies]

Your Fremantle mate sounds like the sort of guy who could get a power point presentation by Andrew Demetrio about our inception and still walk away thinking we were gifted a state side...

Some bloke the other day was telling me we were given millions of dollars??

We actually paid more than anyone else for the license, Brisbane may have paid the same but got "funding" for merging with Fitzroy later. I think a sum of money was refunded a number of years later, recognising we paid more than anyone else. I suspect E87, and others, will know more about that scenario than me.

 

[kranky al]

he has replied by seizing on this bit

given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history.

and replying

Sounds to me like you had a state side (and a lot of them from South Freo as well)

im looking at the drafts from that era - and finding it hard to understand who came from where - who did we get from those 4 years?

 

[swannies]

he has replied by seizing on this bit

and replying

Your Fremantle mate sounds like the sort of guy who could get a power point presentation by Andrew Demetrio about our inception and still walk away thinking we were gifted a state side...

kranky, I think boda might have been right. Don't waste any energy on winning those arguments because a) you'll never win, in their mind, and b) you don't get the energy back, so it's a waste.

 

[kranky al]

yes i know but

and it drives me mad

data cabling pixelpac structured cabling pixelpac cel-fi pixelpac mimo pixelpac

www.pixelpac.com.au

 

[geejay76]

he has replied by seizing on this bit




and replying





im looking at the drafts from that era - and finding it hard to understand who came from where - who did we get from those 4 years?

In 1989 we pre-listed Scott Watters, Craig Turley and Peter Sumich as top-up players as part of our list expansion to match the VFL numbers (we had 35 and then 40 players in the first two years).

Our underage pick history from memory was:

Before 1989 season our pre-draft selections were Don Pyke and Stevan Jackson.

Before 1990 they were Peter Mann and Ryan Turnbull.

Before 1991 it was Glen Jakovich and Mitchell White.

Jason Ball before 1992.

 

[Juddy88]

Yeah I was thinking of this the other day when Freo trolls were rambling about state sides on the Bay, These weren't the exact posts I was thinking off but they are probaby better. Although I doubt any of the trolls would be able to read all of that without stopping for a *** with Shazza out the back.

The ones I read were posted a couple of months ago, can't remember by who or what thread though.

 

[TheGhostOfJohnBelushi]

Eagles never started with a state side. We were full of West Aussies, yes, but it wasn't the WA state side.

We built a state side by our players becoming the best in 1992. No argument there. But we still had to pick and develop those players.

Fremantle supporters are just petty that they had nothing to work with come their inception. They were screwed by the 16 year old concessions to clubs for losing a player to Fremantle first up. And the number of sub-par WAFL standard only players they had beggars belief. But they were horrible at player development and often missed or gave up players in favour of getting Neesham's Claremont boys in.