Hill and Stack want out

[BWFC]

Over a decade we've had about half a dozen aboriginal players who as individuals have been unable to cut it at the elite level. Your reaction is to lump them all together and speculate that the fault lies with the club and some inability to meet the needs of aboriginal players.

And you openly base it on absolutely no knowledge of how the club has treated the players or the processes involved in supporting them during their time at the club. And somehow anyone who doesn't subscribe to this baseless school of thought is naive insensitive and if not racist. Thats stupid.

Here's a thought, maybe Hill and Stack are just not good enough. Maybe they don't possess the strengths and skills to play football at the elite level.

 

[The Boy From Brasil]

i truely beleive it is a total cop out to say they want to be closer to there family, time and time again we cop the walkabout scenario,

Well, that was a football clubs attitude of the 80's. Times have changed since then.

What would happen is that clubs like Geelong and Hawthorn would steer clear of recruiting indigenous players. It wasn't a racist attitude. It was a practical one, that the indigenous players would become homesick after a year or so and go home, and therefore it was a waste of time putting them on the list. You have to remember at that time that the racism code by the AFL wasn't even thought of let implemented, so you can imagine how much fun it would have been for the sole aboriginal player in a club when the entire opposition players and crowd had total license to say whatever they wanted.

The change came when you had coaches like Sheedy who thought "These are really talented players. If there were ways we could make these players happy and stop them becoming homesick, then they could become long term good players for us and really help our club".

When Essendon won the premiership in 1993, and you had Long winning the Norm Smith and Wanganeen the brownlow, it changed the whole landscape. Because other clubs suddenly saw indigenous players as an asset rather than a potential liability. Premierships tend to change clubs attitudes towards anything and everything. And then when Port Adelaide won the 2004 premiership with nearly a third of their side being made of indigenous players, then the theory that good indigenous players are of value was increased even more.

IMO it comes back to the old adage, if you are going to do something, then do it properly. If we are going to take indigenous players, then lets make sure we keep them happy, get the best out of their talent, and enjoy a long career with them.

 

[BWFC]

If it's true about Stack and Hill, then we're seeing a trend.

Here's another trend. Oshea, Skipper, Wight, Walsh, White.... oh wait they just weren't good enough.

 

[The Boy From Brasil]

Over a decade we've had about half a dozen aboriginal players who as individuals have been unable to cut it at the elite level. Your reaction is to lump them all together and speculate that the fault lies with the club and some inability to meet the needs of aboriginal players.
And you openly base it on absolutely no knowledge of how the club has treated the players or the processes involved in supporting them during their time at the club.

I am questioning it, as the club should be. As part of trying to be the best club in the competition, we should be always questioning the way we do things and if we can do them better? I am not having a go at the club, I am merely pointing out that there is a trend, and we should be trying to find out why.

My motivation is to see as much talent at the club as we can. It hurts me to see players with talent leave, for whatever reason.

And somehow anyone who doesn't subscribe to this baseless school of thought is naive insensitive and if not racist. Thats stupid.

Don't talk crap BW, and don't say things that I have never said. When have I ever used the word racist in any post on this forum ?

Here's a thought, maybe Hill and Stack are just not good enough. Maybe they don't possess the strengths and skills to play football at the elite level.

Maybe. Then it comes down to are we doing the due diligence with our recruitment?

Whether it is player welfare, recruitment, player development we should be always asking if there are ways we can be doing these things better. That is the only way we will improve as a club, and we want to become the best club we can.

 

[Mofra]

In all honesty I would trade them for whatever pick upgrades we can get and then I'd try make a deal with Essendon or whoever else is before us in the draft that we can draft Ben Casley from Western Jets

I'd love to pick up Casley from the Jets, and I know he'd love to be a Bulldog next year. He's mates with Libba & Wallis as well.
Alas, Essendon & Port's interest in him means it's almost certainly not going to happen.

 

[Palace03]

No, my argument in general is that it is in the best interests of a football club that if they are going to recruit indigenous players from distant locations, that you have systems in place to make sure that they are happy and try and negate the homesickness factor.

I don't know exactly what systems and processes the club has in place, which is why I am asking the question rather than being critical of the club. But we have recruited Lynch, Hill, Stack, Thorne, Faulkner and all are going/gone. IMO all had talent. So, I am asking the question of why we have trouble retaining indigenous players compared to other clubs.

It is as much as a self interest issue as it is a human welfare one. I felt sorry for Stack all year. You could tell by his body language that he was struggling and lacked confidence and never felt part of the group. If you have a look at the team walking off after a win, there are players hugging each other, talking to each other, and Stack is walking off with his head bowed. To me, he just wasn't enjoying his football.And both Hill and Stack had played good football a couple of years ago. It wasn't as though they never showed they could belong on an AFL field.For some reason, both went backwards this year and that is a shame for all of us.

Anyway, it is just a general observation. AFL clubs spend a lot of money on each player they put on their list. IMO it makes economic sense that each player be given the best chance possible to produce their best talent to justify the clubs investment in them. Identifying that their are different personalities and different cultures which have different needs is a major part of that IMO.

I understand what you are saying. The club are managing human beings, not robots and they don't all respond to the same treatment, it's up to the club to identify this and help each player as an individual, within a team. The problem I see is that we spend the least amount of money on our football department of any club in the league. Maybe there just aren't the resources there for players that other clubs have in place?

I would be concerned if some of our recent Aboriginal recruits had gone on to other clubs and prospered, but the fact no other club has taken a punt on them suggests to me they just weren't up to it.

If Hill and Stack are top be traded I hope we go for an upgrade of a pick, there is no use taking on another low draft pick.

 

[Mofra]

I also wonder about the relationship with the Williamstown players, since fringe players play a lot of games there.

As an aside, am I allowed to speculate on McHarg's prospects of a rookie selection here?

 

[BWFC]

Don't talk crap BW, and don't say things that I have never said. When have I ever used the word racist in any post on this forum ?

Read the thread again I was referring to another poster a few posts back.

As for due diligence with recruiting, we all would agree Hill and Stack have talent. But you can only lead a horse to water.

 

[BWFC]

I'd love to pick up Casley from the Jets, and I know he'd love to be a Bulldog next year. He's mates with Libba & Wallis as well.
Alas, Essendon & Port's interest in him means it's almost certainly not going to happen.

Essendon and Port could be swayed?

 

[The Boy From Brasil]

What your describing is not fitting in with the playing group. Maybe the introverted types are having trouble, regardless of their background? Grant and Everitt also struggle/struggled for a long while.

I also wonder about the relationship with the Williamstown players, since fringe players play a lot of games there.

Maybe the leadership group needs to display a little more TLC with the less mentally mature teammates?

Yes, agree. I talked about Stack and Hill in this thread because that was the title of the thread. But as a general rule, I often wonder how we handle our players with confidence issues or don't feel part of the team.

The success story is Grant. The difference in his body language between his earlier games and mid to later games is amazing. He looks like he belongs out there and he interacts a lot with team mates on the field, more than before.

 

[stefoid]

How do the numbers stack up? (in terms of how many players we need to draft)

OUT:
Retire/sacked: Johno, Eagleton, Aker
Trade out: Hill, Stack
Delist: tiller, callan, thorne (I have no idea)
Stolen: harbrow
---------
TOTAL [9]

IN:
draft: wallis, libba, another pick (must have 3+)
upgrade: hooper, moles, panos??

TOTAL [6]

That leaves us 3 short. I can see us taking 4 in the draft, and trading for 2 players, which would add up to 9 new players coming onto the list.

But you never know, the recruiters might have their eye on some players who they want to beat other clubs to, rather than rookie them, so we might end up spending 4th round picks.

The club might also decide, for development purposes, to give guys like Hahn and Minson a chance at other clubs (there is a real chance they might spend all of their time playing for Williamstown)

 

[jeemak]

Yes, agree. I talked about Stack and Hill in this thread because that was the title of the thread. But as a general rule, I often wonder how we handle our players with confidence issues or don't feel part of the team.

The success story is Grant. The difference in his body language between his earlier games and mid to later games is amazing. He looks like he belongs out there and he interacts a lot with team mates on the field, more than before.

Interesting case Grant. I can't help but feel there's a direct correlation between work rate and the level of respect one gets from their team mates, and their ability to feel as if they fit in. He's said in numerous interviews that he's worked harder and his performances have shown this.

I'm all for pumping up younger players and instilling them with belief, but it's a two way street that requires them to show an ability to tow the line and work their butts off. You need to find a balance between pumping them up due to their potential and the good things they do, and being critical of their level of effort.

 

[realisticview]

You can add Everitt to this topic as well. He has at least another year to run on his contract but if a suitable trade is found he will be gone. He suffers from the same problem as Hill and the club just can't seem to motivate either of them.

 

[scooter600x]

How do the numbers stack up? (in terms of how many players we need to draft)

OUT:
Retire/sacked: Johno, Eagleton, Aker
Trade out: Hill, Stack
Delist: tiller, callan, thorne (I have no idea)
Stolen: harbrow
---------
TOTAL [9]

IN:
draft: wallis, libba, another pick (must have 3+)
upgrade: hooper, moles, panos??

TOTAL [6]

That leaves us 3 short. I can see us taking 4 in the draft, and trading for 2 players, which would add up to 9 new players coming onto the list.

But you never know, the recruiters might have their eye on some players who they want to beat other clubs to, rather than rookie them, so we might end up spending 4th round picks.

The club might also decide, for development purposes, to give guys like Hahn and Minson a chance at other clubs (there is a real chance they might spend all of their time playing for Williamstown)

You left out Hahn. Even if he is retained he is eligible for the vets list so won't count on our main list.

Can't see Panos getting an upgrade this year.

 

[scooter600x]

IN:
draft: wallis, libba, another pick (must have 3+)
upgrade: hooper, moles, panos??

TOTAL [6]

Rookie upgrade count as part of your compulsory 3.

Liberatore, Wallis and Moles and we have met our minimum obligation.

 

[WWWombat]

Wight, Walsh, White.... oh wait they just weren't good enough.

We obviously need to stop drafting kids with surnames that start with 'W'.

 

[immortalmike]

We obviously need to stop drafting kids with surnames that start with 'W'.

Uh oh,,,Wallis.

 

[Werewolf]

We obviously need to stop drafting kids with surnames that start with 'W'.

Ward, Wood & Williams are coming along nicely thankyou very much

 

[WWWombat]

A bloke named Whitten went alright, as well.

I think any team with Hill and Stack in it is just an accident waiting to happen.

 

[BWFC]

Ward, Wood & Williams are coming along nicely thankyou very much

Big Will???

 

[Coledinho]

anti wins bigfooty. How can we discuss anything but those posts?

Rumor doing the rounds is Spangher is off to the Bulldogs.

 

[adam10]

anti wins bigfooty. How can we discuss anything but those posts?

Rumor doing the rounds is Spangher is off to the Bulldogs.

 

[cosmicr]

I hate talking about Aboriginal players because unless you've got something positive to say about them you get branded racist. Even neutral comments get met with raised eyebrows.

But anyway, can anyone tell me more about Hill's dad? This thread is the first time I've heard he is apparently a nuisance or something?

 

[Coledinho]

Mods might cry but come on adam10.

Your flogging of Brendan Stack. Comparing him to Spangher is like comparing Cameron Ling to Enrique Inglesias in terms of good looks. A straight swap of Stack for Spangher would see us leaving the trade room with a broom up our poop shooter.

 

[bulldogsman]

anti wins bigfooty. How can we discuss anything but those posts?

Rumor doing the rounds is Spangher is off to the Bulldogs.

I actually thought Spangher would make it, he must have really went to poo this year.