Holden has been put out of its misery

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edgie

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Nothing beats the venerable Gibson motorsport R32 GTR at Bathurst. Those things were beastly. Took 20 years for the dinosaur commodores to beat the GTR race record. 20 years in automotive time is sn eternity, I doubt theres a race record thats lasted that long anywhere in motorsport worldwide.
I'm pretty sure those Commodores held a lap record in Europe somewhere for that long.

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Zidane98

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Not a correct or fair comparison.

The GTR was a purpose built race car as was the Sierra.

The commodores etc were not.


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All group a touring cars were purpose built race cars based on production cars.

The GTR had far more in common with its production car compared to the Commodores.

Absolutely incredible it took 20 years for them to beat the race record. Lap record remained fpr ages too, ill have to look it up.
 

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General Giant

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All group a touring cars were purpose built race cars based on production cars.

The GTR had far more in common with its production car compared to the Commodores.

Absolutely incredible it took 20 years for them to beat the race record. Lap record remained fpr ages too, ill have to look it up.
Please. It was a competition racing car built from the ground up. Turbos, awd etc etc.

I love the thing but it was no touring car.


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Zidane98

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Please. It was a competition racing car built from the ground up. Turbos, awd etc etc.

I love the thing but it was no touring car.


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It wasn't anything of the sort, the Skyline GT-R was a production car. The production car had turbos, awd etc etc. 43,000 production GTRs were sold between 1989-1994.


Group a rules were changed because it was flogging the commodores and falcons so comprehensively. First, with a power reduction and weight addition. That didn't work. So group a rules were changed to prevent turbocharged engines. Which is pretty poor when the aussie dinosaurs were running 5.0L V8 engines vs a 2.6L straight six.
 

General Giant

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It wasn't anything of the sort, the Skyline GT-R was a production car. The production car had turbos, awd etc etc. 43,000 production GTRs were sold between 1989-1994.


Group a rules were changed because it was flogging the commodores and falcons so comprehensively. First, with a power reduction and weight addition. That didn't work. So group a rules were changed to prevent turbocharged engines. Which is pretty poor when the aussie dinosaurs were running 5.0L V8 engines vs a 2.6L straight six.
That’s like saying we should allow Ferrari’s in touring car because they are a production car.


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Zidane98

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That’s like saying we should allow Ferrari’s in touring car because they are a production car.


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Lol, Feraris are not based on a everyday production car. R32 production numbers totalled 313000



Its not like saying Ferraris should be allowed in touring car at all.
 

General Giant

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Lol, Feraris are not based on a everyday production car. R32 production numbers totalled 313000



Its not like saying Ferraris should be allowed in touring car at all.
The GTR is a race car not an everyday production car.

So they sold in big numbers, wow, doesn’t change anything.


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Zidane98

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The GTR is a race car not an everyday production car.

So they sold in big numbers, wow, doesn’t change anything.


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Group A does not allow cars that were purpose built race cars. They must be based on production cars.

Nissan sold 43000 R32 GTRs and 313000 R32 Skylines overall. You are simply incorrect on this one.
 

General Giant

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Group A does not allow cars that were purpose built race cars. They must be based on production cars.

Nissan sold 43000 R32 GTRs and 313000 R32 Skylines overall. You are simply incorrect on this one.
I completely disagree with you. The care was built to be a race car, a Porsche killer.
It may have sold well and it may have survived the dodgy rules of the time but that is a race car not a touring car.

Nothing wrong with it, it’s a great car. But you can’t compare it to a VL Commodore.

Maybe if they raced the Skylines as standard not as an awd turbo then it would be different.


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Zidane98

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I completely disagree with you. The care was built to be a race car, a Porsche killer.
It may have sold well and it may have survived the dodgy rules of the time but that is a race car not a touring car.

Nothing wrong with it, it’s a great car. But you can’t compare it to a VL Commodore.

Maybe if they raced the Skylines as standard not as an awd turbo then it would be different.


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LOL. The GTR came from the factory with AWD Turbo. They absolutrly were based on a standard production car, end of story.

The rules werent dodgy at all, changing them to preclude the GTR was.
 

edgie

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I don't believe in comparing RWD non turbocharged vehicles to those that are not RWD or turbocharged.

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Zidane98

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Turbo is like a cheat code. AWD is better for racing.

Turbo and AWD the V8 cars for a fair comparison.

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Hardly a cheat code when the engine is half the size and has 2 less cylinders.

Holden could have developrd an AWD production car but chose not .
 

edgie

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Hardly a cheat code when the engine is half the size and has 2 less cylinders.

Holden could have developrd an AWD production car but chose not .
Nope, they chose to keep developing RWD family sedans, which is their thing.

Again, turbo the V8.

The idea that the GTR's dominated racing is well overblown. They had a few good years.

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Zidane98

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Nope, they chose to keep developing RWD family sedans, which is their thing.

Again, turbo the V8.

The idea that the GTR's dominated racing is well overblown. They had a few good years.

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R32 Skyline GTR was one of the most successful group a touring cars ever, worldwide.

Bathurst was the first time that the Aussie manufacturers were really embarrassed by Japanese manufacturers. And as you say they chose to focus on developing RWD family sedans which was their eventual undoing by not moving with the times.

And you couldn't turbo the V8 under group rules, turbos were classed as capacity multipliers. 5L was the largest allowable capacity, a turbo was simply not an option.

It could have been if Holden developed a turbo six but that was obviously beyond their technical capabilities which existed as far as pushrod 5L two valve per cylinder V8s.
 

Klyntonius

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Absolutely incredible it took 20 years for them to beat the race record. Lap record remained fpr ages too, ill have to look it up.
Amazing race record. It does take a lot of factors to come together to set/beat an endurance race record though. Perkins was within a minute and a half only 4 years later despite dropping to last with a flat tyre on the second lap.

The lap records were beaten 3 years later by the might of the EB Falcon.
1991:
  • Pole Position – #1 Mark Skaife – 2:12.63
  • Fastest Lap – #2 Mark Skaife – 2:14.50

1994:
  • Pole Position - #1 Glenn Seton - 2:12.1464
  • Fastest Lap - #17 Dick Johnson - 2:14.1458
 

Zidane98

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Amazing race record. It does take a lot of factors to come together to set/beat an endurance race record though. Perkins was within a minute and a half only 4 years later despite dropping to last with a flat tyre on the second lap.

The lap records were beaten 3 years later by the might of the EB Falcon.
1991:
  • Pole Position – #1 Mark Skaife – 2:12.63
  • Fastest Lap – #2 Mark Skaife – 2:14.50

1994:
  • Pole Position - #1 Glenn Seton - 2:12.1464
  • Fastest Lap - #17 Dick Johnson - 2:14.1458
The race record was not beaten until 2010. Thats incredible, I have yet to find a similar record.

3 years is a huge amount of time in the automotive world, especially for race teams that have enormous budgets.

Your also forgetting that the GTR had weights added to it and horsepower limited for its final year. The aussie dinosaurs had better power to weight ratios and still copped a flogging.
 

edgie

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Endurance racing is a completely different beast now to how it was 20/30 years ago. Brock's winning margin will never be beaten. It just isn't possible anymore to imagine any racer winning by six laps. Increased safety cars, speed limiters, changes to the track, etc.

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Klyntonius

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The race record was not beaten until 2010. Thats incredible, I have yet to find a similar record.

3 years is a huge amount of time in the automotive world, especially for race teams that have enormous budgets.

Your also forgetting that the GTR had weights added to it and horsepower limited for its final year. The aussie dinosaurs had better power to weight ratios and still copped a flogging.
Again, it's an amazing record. By 1999 the cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker yet couldn't beat the GTRs race record. Weather, safety cars and competition all play a large part in race records, especially for endurance races.

3 years is bugger all. It's 2 years of unfavorable conditions in between.

No one disagrees the GTR was a magnificent car, vastly superior to it's Australian competitors. But let's not go overboard.
 

Zidane98

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Again, it's an amazing record. By 1999 the cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker yet couldn't beat the GTRs race record. Weather, safety cars and competition all play a large part in race records, especially for endurance races.

3 years is bugger all. It's 2 years of unfavorable conditions in between.

No one disagrees the GTR was a magnificent car, vastly superior to it's Australian competitors. But let's not go overboard.

7 out of 9 wins. 6 1-2 positions for the GT-R. Its an all time great touring car for sure.
 

Nuggs Bunny

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The GT-R is one of the reasons why Group A sucked and also why nobody missed it when it was canned in '93 despite everyone looking back with rose coloured glasses at it now. The BNR32 and the Sierra Cosworth had minimal in common with their supposed production derivatives aside from a general silhouette appearance and were designed from the ground up to participate in Group A racing; Ford EU and Nissan could afford to spend big money on this at the time so it was okay and the race results spoke for themselves. Minnow outfits like Holden and others were doing the best with what they had at hand and again, the race results spoke for themselves.
 

Zidane98

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The GT-R is one of the reasons why Group A sucked and also why nobody missed it when it was canned in '93 despite everyone looking back with rose coloured glasses at it now. The BNR32 and the Sierra Cosworth had minimal in common with their supposed production derivatives aside from a general silhouette appearance and were designed from the ground up to participate in Group A racing; Ford EU and Nissan could afford to spend big money on this at the time so it was okay and the race results spoke for themselves. Minnow outfits like Holden and others were doing the best with what they had at hand and again, the race results spoke for themselves.
Bathurst GTRs had RB26 engines with stock drivetrain. Just like the Holden V8s they had upgraded dog gearboxes, fuel management systems, suspension etc. Probably more in common with a R32 roadcar then the VN V8 supercar had with its road going sibling. The R32 Skyline platform certainly was not designed as a group a racing car from the ground up, that is absolutely not true. There were 313000 R32 Skyline series vehicles built with 43000 of them being GT-Rs. The R32 Skyline was an everyday run of the mill vehicle in every sense.

Plenty of racing fans miss the variety of vehicles on show in Group A. V8 supercars become very generic & bland.
 

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