How about the crows learn to kick the ball straight?

[Mattrox]

Lloyd was not accurate/consistent until he worked out a routine.

One of the radio stations was discussing routines and talked in depth about Lloyd working on his goal kicking.

 

[Vader]

In general I agree with you. You're not going to turn a donkey into a racehorse. However, significant improvements can and have been made by those who are/were willing to put the time & effort into improving their kicking technique. Much though you ridicule him, Tredders is a perfect example of this.

Did he become as accurate as Lloyd & Plugger? Hell no. Did he improve massively from his early career problems? Absolutely.

The best way to improve our kicking for goal is to recruit players who come into the system with accurate kicks. No argument. However, we have to work with the tools we have available to us - and that means we have to put the time & effort into improving the kicking techniques of the players we already have. Doing so can and should result in significant improvements to our team's set shot accuracy, even if the elite level of kicking is beyond them.

 

[Mattrox]

Any physical movement can be coached, improved and dare I say it almost perfected. It depends on the determination of the individual and in the case if football the motivation of the club to improve the skill.

Golfers who already have a 'naturally' good swing still get out on the driving range and hit thousands of balls to keep in touch. Despite Natural abilities or lack there of we need to be training the skill rather than resting on our lauryls because it is a 'basic' skill.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Vader - agreed. And I did say in my initial posts that we should be striving for those marginal improvements. But they will be just that - marginal.

I remember Bomber Thompson saying that when his teams were having bad days, he'd tell them to try and make certainties of their shots, to try and get easy ones - just to get the confidence up. He was saying he had to implement this quite a bit, as even when Geelong were at their absolute peak they could still have shocking days in front of goal (2008 GF springs to mind).

Interesting theory.

 

[GROTTO]

On the weekend I couldnt believe the way the Crows were kicking. Some kicks literally just went vertically up in the air. Its almost as if the players have diarrhea when they get possession. There is no calmness with their disposal. Mind you the Power were just as bad, but this week is "their" grand final expect fluke and arsey goals this week by them.

 

[Rear Admiral]

True, but it's a bit like starting a sun smart routine at the age of 50. Sure, it's better late than never, but most of the damage has already been done.

What you come into the AFL with is pretty much what you've got for life as far as ball skills go. You can make marginal improvements, but that's about it.

Sure, strive for the marginal improvements. But if you want a skillful side, it's all about the pedigree of the players.

Look at the players Hawthorn have recruited, for instance. Not many guys in that team can't hit a guy on the chest from 30 metres.

Luke Hodge and Sam Mitchell aren't good kicks because of their coaches at Hawthorn. They're good kicks because they've been good kicks since the age of ten.

I agree with you 100%, and some of our past recruitment has more than a bit to answer for, in terms of not recruiting players with genuine top-shelf skills. And we should definitely make it a top priority to target more highly talented, skillful players from now on (should have focused on this long ago). Absolutely .

But at this very moment, it's the fact that we haven't already brought in a reputable goal-kicking coach to help our "best" goal kicking Forwards improve their set shots - that's what's adding insult to injury at the moment. In no way am I saying is this a substitute for poor skills to begin with....far from it....but we're not even attempting to address the issue now, whatever marginal help it may offer .

On a side note, Neil Craig was more interested in natural athletes and blind obedience to authority than natural talent.

 

[Rear Admiral]

On the weekend I couldnt believe the way the Crows were kicking. Some kicks literally just went vertically up in the air. Its almost as if the players have diarrhea when they get possession. There is no calmness with their disposal. Mind you the Power were just as bad, but this week is "their" grand final expect fluke and arsey goals this week by them.

Valid points, and not just in this recent loss to Freo. Good post.

I've mentioned a number of times the Crows long, long, long, long term lack of general evasive and lateral skills....particularly out in open field play, away from stoppages. What's this got to do with the Crows lousy field-kicking? Well, a lot of the time (although not all) our poor field kicks are brought about because the bloke kicking the ball has only just taken possession, is under immense pressure (either real or perceived), and immediately jams the Pill on the boot as quickly as he can, hoping and praying he doesn't get tackled. I keep seeing this time and time again - Thompson could take out a Masters Degree in this. Well, this is where the problem starts....most of the time. This may seem insignificant, but it really gets to the core of the problem.

Take a look at Hodge, Mitchell, and (especially) Ablett and Jarman (when he was playing) - their footskills are absolutely superb. But it isn't just because of the mechanics of their kicking action, it's because they typically give themselves time and space before they spot a target and lay the ball on the boot. It's their evasive skills that make them so damaging by foot.

What the Crows are seemingly neglecting at training is the skill/ability to get out of a pressure situation without giving up the Footy....before looking for a target to kick to. At training, they need to get the ball and focus on repetitive, contested dodging drills, where they are NOT allowed to dispose of the footy - they must get around whoever it is that's trying to tackle them. Learn to accept getting tackled, then get up and keep practicing until you get it right.
At the moment, it's all crash, bang, desperation kicking, and nothing else.

If the Crows want to improve their general field kicking, as lots of people have commented on....they have to focus on the problems I mentioned above. If they can do this, it will go a long way to help them hit targets by foot all over the paddock.

 

[GROTTO]

Valid points, and not just in this recent loss to Freo. Good post.

When you punt on a team you tend to notice everything right and wrong about them. Fortunately I backed the Crows with the +handicap which they covered.

Im going to enjoy watching the Showdown this week, I felt the disposal of each team was diabolical so it should make for interesting and frustrating viewing. Power to their credit always lift for a showdown and expect "miracle" goals by them.

 

[Macjoe]

"

...Crayon level analysis, brought to you by MacJoe.

Maybe my reaction was a bit over-the-top. That was because I remembered exactly the same argument from you, SP, back in September, 2010. The Thread was called 'Crows bring in 2 external fitness gurus' - I won't bump all 10 pages.

We had this exchange, amongst others:

Slippery Pete said:​

I guarantee everybody on this board that spending a summer practising goalkicking will have no effect WHATSOEVER.​

Goalkicking percentages have not changed in over 30 YEARS.​

If you want better goalkicking, recruit more skillfull players. Simple​

​

Macjoe's 'crayon level' answer:​

​

You are probably right "that spending a summer practising goalkicking" is not the best way to go, but I am sure you are wrong that our goalkicking accuracy cannot be improved.​

I'm not going to argue the "Goalkicking percentages have not changed in over 30 YEARS" issue. (Although as with most modern footy observers and commentators I believe they should have, and they will. It is a skill, and as such can be taught. ​

​

Never mind, the overall goalkicking percentage is not the issue.​

OUR goalkicking percentage is WAY below the norm this year. ​

Do you realise how far down the lists of goalkicking accuracy Crows players are this year?​

From footywire stats - http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_goal_kickers?year=2010&type=T&sort=accuracy​

​

#76 - Yes, that's right, by the footystats.com definition of goal-kicking accuracy ... the BEST adelaide goalkicker came 76th!!! on the list of all goalkickers who kicked 15 goals or more in the AFL in 2010 sorted by accuracy. ​

​

#76 Dangerfield 26 goals @ 57.8% ​

#80 Tippett 46 goals @ 57.5%​

#81 Porplyzia 22 goals @ 56.4%​

#84 Walker 35 goals @ 55.6%​

#105 Douglas 17 goals @ 45.9%​

​

For comparison, #1 Aaron Edwards 25 goals @ 83.3%​

With our best being a horrific 76th, obviously every other club has multiple players who were more accurate than us: Geelong had 8; Carlton and Freo had 7; North Melbourne, Sydney and the Doggies had 6; Collingwood, Essendon, Hawthorn and Port had 5; and no other club had less than 2 players more accurate than our best - we are bottom of the list by a long way.​

​

For what I think is a "good reason", let us consider the Western Bulldogs in more detail.​

#3 Hill 21 goals @ 80.8%​

#9 Giansiracusa 31 goals @ 72.1%​

#19 Hall 75 goals @ 68.8%​

#27 Higgins 17 goals @ 68%​

#36 Griffen 23 goals @ 65.7%​

#55 Grant 27 goals @ 62.8%​

​

Not bad, huh? Their 6 15+ goal-kickers ALL had an accuracy above 60%, the best above 80%! Our 5 all had an accuracy below 60%. ​

​

More skillful players? I doubt it. I find it hard to say a list that has Porps and Tex in it lacks skillful kickers and keep a straight face.​

​

So the "good reason"? The Goose. ​

​

The Western Bulldogs employ a forward coach who specialises in teaching goal-kicking accuracy: Simon Goosey, better known as Goose.​

http://www.coachafl.com/index.php?pr=Feature_-_Goal_Kicking_With_Goosey ​

​

We should identify and employ a specialist goal-kicking coach, too.​

This article is also interesting - it deals directly with the commonly held view that kicking can't be improved: http://www.coachafl.com/index.php?pr=Feature_Kicking

Slippery Pete, surely you remembered this thread? Or perhaps you were playing with crayons back then.

 

[Slippery Pete]

First of all, the fact that I said exactly the same thing in 2010 about poor goalkicking, and we are still having the same argument in 2013, about the same players, is surely a point in my favour, not yours.

But I digress...

This article is also interesting - it deals directly with the commonly held view that kicking can't be improved: http://www.coachafl.com/index.php?pr=Feature_Kicking

"......seventy year old Roy Redman from Kick Builders, along with his protégé Sean Clarke, are challenging this belief with an elite kicking program promising to transform any player into an elite kick within just 6 weeks, and with amazing results.

Discover the amazing methodology behind their success."


After reading this, was anybody else thinking what I was thinking?

 

[fairfooty]

Look guys, argument over. I'm a hockey player and I could teach these blokes to kick straight through those two tall white things better than what's going on at the moment...

 

[skoobydoo]

When you punt on a team you tend to notice everything right and wrong about them. Fortunately I backed the Crows with the +handicap which they covered.

Im going to enjoy watching the Showdown this week, I felt the disposal of each team was diabolical so it should make for interesting and frustrating viewing. Power to their credit always lift for a showdown and expect "miracle" goals by them.

Yes it will be interesting. I only watched the 1st quarter of Power game but noticed they played on almost every opportunity. Just sayin'.
Power have players we have to cover....but I don't think the reverse is true.

 

[Paladin]

Lindsay Thomas has gone from an awful shot at goal to nearly the best in the AFL so it can be done. All in his head no doubt.

 

[Mattrox]

Any physical movement skill can be taught and improved.

Fly casting is a hell of a lot more technical than goal kicking. My old man went from being a mug weekend caster to accredited instructor. All it took was practice and a will to do it. He only started serious fly casting after the age of 60 with a touch of arthritis in the shoulder. If he can get the timing right for that, professional footballers who live & breathe the game can improve a ****ing kick at goal.

Confidence, Practice and technique. All three go hand in hand.

 

[AFC979810]

Any physical movement skill can be taught and improved.

Fly casting is a hell of a lot more technical than goal kicking. My old man went from being a mug weekend caster to accredited instructor. All it took was practice and a will to do it. He only started serious fly casting after the age of 60 with a touch of arthritis in the shoulder. If he can get the timing right for that, professional footballers who live & breathe the game can improve a ******* kick at goal.

Confidence, Practice and technique. All three go hand in hand.

I think a 60 year old fly casting by himself is a little less pressure than kicking for goal in front of 40,000 people.

You post doesn't discuss the mental aspect of goalkicking which is probably the biggest factor. I am sure you give McKernan the ball from 30 out at practice and he kicks it 9.5 out of 10. Put him under the strain of real game pressure and we have a different story.

A player can be a naturally beautiful kick, with a great coach tweaking his action and he can work on it all day, but if he isn't mentally strong enough to convert then unfortunately there ain't a lot you can do.

 

[Mattrox]

I think a 60 year old fly casting by himself is a little less pressure than kicking for goal in front of 40,000 people.

You post doesn't discuss the mental aspect of goalkicking which is probably the biggest factor. I am sure you give McKernan the ball from 30 out at practice and he kicks it 9.5 out of 10. Put him under the strain of real game pressure and we have a different story.

A player can be a naturally beautiful kick, with a great coach tweaking his action and he can work on it all day, but if he isn't mentally strong enough to convert then unfortunately there ain't a lot you can do.

I'm not saying it is exactly the same in the slightest. Just that any physical action can be improved with training and repetition. And too old to learn is a myth.

I also have said a lot of goal kicking is between the ears. This is where the pressure comes in. Hold it together and the pressure doesn't effect you. I agree whole heartedly with your last paragraph. And yes some players naturally have good technique. But they still need to train and practise that action. If good technique were the only thing why do pro golfers keep hitting thousands of balls on the driving range?

BTW ask a saltwater fly fisher if there is no pressure to cast to a cruising bonefish or tarpon on the flats. They might beg to differ.

 

[macca23]

I think a 60 year old fly casting by himself is a little less pressure than kicking for goal in front of 40,000 people.

When I first read that in isolation, I thought "Why in fk is he talking about 60 year old flies???"

The penny did eventually drop when I read the whole exchange of posts.

 

[Kickin_Goals]

Thinking back this probably happened to us last year but we also had a more accurate and efficient team last year so it masked these deficiencies. Our midfield was so good last year in the clinches so most stoppage situations ended up in a forward attack for us. We had a drop off at the start of the year in this area and lost but now our midfield has improved they don't have a good forward line to kick to.

midfield is still great in he clinches, they simply don't kick the ball long and roll the dice anymore, 2013 has been all about cute footy and it's rubbish against most sides.
You can't try and play cute crap without the cattle with good enough precision skills.
We don't have the players geelong do in that regard, I say geelong due to what Sando is trying to instill. We've got a few elite players the rest their disposal is all very questionable especially under pressure and the tendency to opt for the handball this year is massive when it's not the short kick.

Also Jenkins take off that idiotic number 4 jumper, we don't want a replacement kurt tippett be something better.

 

[BundyJack]

I'm not - I'm merely stating that even some elite players have been poor kicks for goal. If it was as simple as getting a goalkicking coach in, don't you think they'd be across that? Don't you think Nick Riewoldt would have tidied that up by now?

If Tredrea is the best example we have of a guy "improving" his goalkicking via coaching, then clearly it's a pretty weak premise.

Guys that are accurate in front of the sticks and are consistently accurate for long periods - the Lloyds, the Locketts, the Jarmans, Dunstalls, Modras.......came into the system as good kicks.

Guys who are erratic kicks for goal - the Riewoldts, Clokes, Richardsons - tend to stay that way.

Let's get this straight - there was only one Lockett, Dunstall, Modra. There were Jarmans plural.
there are Riewoldts plural but one Cloke worth remembering, one Richardson, one Lloyd.
Now let's get our kicking straight. Bring in D.Jarman or A.Modra.

 

[Slippery Pete]

I did a Gary Ayres.

 

[Vader]

midfield is still great in he clinches, they simply don't kick the ball long and roll the dice anymore, 2013 has been all about cute footy and it's rubbish against most sides.
You can't try and play cute crap without the cattle with good enough precision skills.
We don't have the players geelong do in that regard, I say geelong due to what Sando is trying to instill. We've got a few elite players the rest their disposal is all very questionable especially under pressure and the tendency to opt for the handball this year is massive when it's not the short kick.

Also Jenkins take off that idiotic number 4 jumper, we don't want a replacement kurt tippett be something better.

There are several reasons why our midfield aren't bombing it long these days, when they used to do so with monotonous regularity.

The first of these is Tiprat. You may have noticed his absence from our forward line this year? His departure was mentioned briefly in the media during the off-season, but you may have missed it. Tiprat provided us with that big tall target in the forward line. Bomb it long to Tiprat was our get out of jail free card when we couldn't spot up a better option. No Tiprat = no target in our forward line = no long bombs to the F50. Yes, I know we have JJ, but he's nowhere near as effective in contested marking situations as Tiprat.

The second is our defensive press. We frequently push all our players into the defensive half of the ground. That works well defensively, because it clogs the opposition's forward line and prevents them from getting players into space - and hence limits their ability to score. The problem is that when we get a fast break out of defence, we often see players getting to the wing and having to stop and prop because there is literally no Crows player forward of them to kick to. They have to wait until our players can run back into our forward line (while the opposition defenders are doing likewise). There's no point in kicking the ball long if there's nobody (or only opposition players) waiting there to receive it.

Bombing long works well when you have a target, such as Tiprat, waiting there to mark it. Bombing the ball long without a tall target, or even worse, without a teammate within cooee of the ball's destination, is just plain dumb. This is why Adelaide haven't been bombing it long and calls for them to do so are really not that clever (Rear Admiral, I'm looking at you when I write this).

 

[BundyJack]

I did a Gary Ayres.

I forgive you SP -- I'll never forgive Gary Ayres!

 

[Rear Admiral]

Any physical movement skill can be taught and improved.

Fly casting is a hell of a lot more technical than goal kicking. My old man went from being a mug weekend caster to accredited instructor. All it took was practice and a will to do it. He only started serious fly casting after the age of 60 with a touch of arthritis in the shoulder. If he can get the timing right for that, professional footballers who live & breathe the game can improve a ******* kick at goal.

Confidence, Practice and technique. All three go hand in hand.

Very, very good post .

While we should definitely be recruiting more naturally talented players, I think a lot more could be said for getting in a top goal-kicking coach and hours of practice.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

Adelaide are 3rd worst for goals vs behinds ratio. exactly 50% with only brisbane and GC ahead

Lost to the bombers ion round one with equal scoring shots, and were lucky to beat north by 1 point despite having about 5 more shots on goal.

But its not just the end shots on goals that kills it for us. Its the quarters where we kick 3.6 or 2.5 and lose momentum because of it!!!

 

[Kickin_Goals]

Adelaide are 3rd worst for goals vs behinds ratio. exactly 50% with only brisbane and GC ahead

Lost to the bombers ion round one with equal scoring shots, and were lucky to beat north by 1 point despite having about 5 more shots on goal.

But its not just the end shots on goals that kills it for us. Its the quarters where we kick 3.6 or 2.5 and lose momentum because of it!!!

happened at the start of the Sydney game had all the play kicked points looked disinterested then after.