How did this trade work?

[DaveW]

Just looking back on the 1999 trading period, and I noticed this doozy...

We traded pick 77 (Lindsay Smith) for Scott Welsh and pick 67 (Robert Shirley).

Am I missing something here? I know Welsh was homesick but how on earth did North agree to give him to us AND lose 10 spots in the draft?

 

[noddy]

Originally posted by DaveW
Just looking back on the 1999 trading period, and I noticed this doozy...

We traded pick 77 (Lindsay Smith) for Scott Welsh and pick 67 (Robert Shirley).

Am I missing something here? I know Welsh was homesick but how on earth did North agree to give him to us AND lose 10 spots in the draft?

Something is not quite right about that trade

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I'm pretty sure we gave up either a 2nd or 3rd rounder too.

 

[PrideOf]

Originally posted by DaveW
Just looking back on the 1999 trading period, and I noticed this doozy...

We traded pick 77 (Lindsay Smith) for Scott Welsh and pick 67 (Robert Shirley).

Am I missing something here? I know Welsh was homesick but how on earth did North agree to give him to us AND lose 10 spots in the draft?

Dave, I think that was 'The Leigh Colbert Deal' which we muscled in on.

We picked up:
Scott Welsh from Roos
Late pick from Geelong - Rob Shirley

And gave up:
Early pick to Geelong - David Spriggs
Late pick to Kangaroos

Probably win-win.

 

[Mego Red]

That might be right - but I also noticed that NM picked at 61, 74 and 77, with 77 listed as our pick which had been traded to them. If that's the truth, wouldn't the earlier pick - 61 - have been ours as well? 16 picks before? Or is my math crap?

The AFL Guide is so mediocre on the details of these kinds of trades ...

 

[marvin]

Welsh was part of the Colbert deal - a four way trade involving Adelaide, Brisbane, Geelong and the Roos.

Insofar as the AFL likes to break these things down into individual trades, Adelaide did 3 trades in that trade week - Clarke for picks 6 and 21, Welsh and pick 70 for pick 84, and pick 88 for Picioane.

The overall Colbert deal went something like this.

ADELAIDE:
Gain Welsh, #70
Give #84

BRISBANE:

Gain #32
Lose #15, Calthorpe

GEELONG:

Gain #15, #17, #48, Cameron Mooney
Give Colbert, #54, #70

KANGAS:

Gain Calthorpe, Colbert, #54, #84
Give Mooney, Welsh, #17, #32, #48

Two things stand out from that list. Firstly, as pointed out, why would the Kangas give us Welsh to trade down 14 spots? And secondly, why would Brisbane give up their first pick and a player for a second pick? Seems like a massively unbalanced trade in our favour and away from Brisbane.

However, factor the Clarke trade in for both Adelaide and Brisbane as part of the same deal and it all makes sense.


ADELAIDE:
Gain Welsh, Clarke, #70
Give #6, #21, #84

BRISBANE:

Gain #6, #21, #32
Lose #15, Clarke, Calthorpe

I believe that though "separate", the Clarke trade was a vital cog in the Colbert move.

(I should also point out that the draft pick numbers given here were the original ones, before final delistings which moved the late picks up a few notches).

 

[PrideOf]

Originally posted by Kristof
That might be right - but I also noticed that NM picked at 61, 74 and 77, with 77 listed as our pick which had been traded to them. If that's the truth, wouldn't the earlier pick - 61 - have been ours as well? 16 picks before? Or is my math crap?

The AFL Guide is so mediocre on the details of these kinds of trades ...

True Kristof ... and they also do a thing that I think is pointless by trying to match up player for player or player for draft pick in trades. Like how they say that we gave away a mid-range pick for Wellman, but don't mention that it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't part of the Darren Jarman deal which involved four clubs.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by marvin
Welsh was part of the Colbert deal - a four way trade involving Adelaide, Brisbane, Geelong and the Roos.

Insofar as the AFL likes to break these things down into individual trades, Adelaide did 3 trades in that trade week - Clarke for picks 6 and 21, Welsh and pick 70 for pick 84, and pick 88 for Picioane.

The overall Colbert deal went something like this.

ADELAIDE:
Gain Welsh, #70
Give #84

BRISBANE:

Gain #32
Lose #15, Calthorpe

GEELONG:

Gain #15, #17, #48, Cameron Mooney
Give Colbert, #54, #70

KANGAS:

Gain Calthorpe, Colbert, #54, #84
Give Mooney, Welsh, #17, #32, #48

Two things stand out from that list. Firstly, as pointed out, why would the Kangas give us Welsh to trade down 14 spots? And secondly, why would Brisbane give up their first pick and a player for a second pick? Seems like a massively unbalanced trade in our favour and away from Brisbane.

However, factor the Clarke trade in for both Adelaide and Brisbane as part of the same deal and it all makes sense.


ADELAIDE:
Gain Welsh, Clarke, #70
Give #6, #21, #84

BRISBANE:

Gain #6, #21, #32
Lose #15, Clarke, Calthorpe

I believe that though "separate", the Clarke trade was a vital cog in the Colbert move.

(I should also point out that the draft pick numbers given here were the original ones, before final delistings which moved the late picks up a few notches).

I reckon this has been incorrectly listed.

Pretty sure we gave up only our 1st rounder (#6) for Clarke.

Also, I think we gave up picks #21 & #84 for Welsh & pick #70.

 

[Jars458]

Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
I reckon this has been incorrectly listed.

Pretty sure we gave up only our 1st rounder (#6) for Clarke.

Also, I think we gave up picks #21 & #84 for Welsh & pick #70.

No that's wrong

I rememver at teh time thinking cool we got Welsh for going up in the draft

I think the bottom line was Kangas were happy for Welsh to go home but we had to acutally give them something for him which involved the trade in picks.

Althought the Clarke deal sounds far more plausiable.

 

[marvin]

Bit more of a check shows that pick 15 passed through Adelaide's hands at one point.

Clarke + #15 <-> #6, #21

plus

Welsh + #70 <-> #15, #84

equals

Clarke + Welsh + 70 <-> #6, #21, #84

Kangas then ontraded #15 to Geelong.

 

[maccas_no1]

Originally posted by marvin
Bit more of a check shows that pick 15 passed through Adelaide's hands at one point.

Clarke + #15 <-> #6, #21

plus

Welsh + #70 <-> #15, #84

equals

Clarke + Welsh + 70 <-> #6, #21, #84

Kangas then ontraded #15 to Geelong.

Clear as mud

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by DaveW
Just looking back on the 1999 trading period, and I noticed this doozy...

We traded pick 77 (Lindsay Smith) for Scott Welsh and pick 67 (Robert Shirley).

Am I missing something here? I know Welsh was homesick but how on earth did North agree to give him to us AND lose 10 spots in the draft?

I am pretty sure we also gave up pick 15 which ended up at Geelong (David Spriggs).

Overall I think it was a pretty good deal. Win for everyone.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by marvin
Welsh was part of the Colbert deal - a four way trade involving Adelaide, Brisbane, Geelong and the Roos.

Insofar as the AFL likes to break these things down into individual trades, Adelaide did 3 trades in that trade week - Clarke for picks 6 and 21, Welsh and pick 70 for pick 84, and pick 88 for Picioane.

The overall Colbert deal went something like this.

ADELAIDE:
Gain Welsh, #70
Give #84

BRISBANE:

Gain #32
Lose #15, Calthorpe

GEELONG:

Gain #15, #17, #48, Cameron Mooney
Give Colbert, #54, #70

KANGAS:

Gain Calthorpe, Colbert, #54, #84
Give Mooney, Welsh, #17, #32, #48

Two things stand out from that list. Firstly, as pointed out, why would the Kangas give us Welsh to trade down 14 spots? And secondly, why would Brisbane give up their first pick and a player for a second pick? Seems like a massively unbalanced trade in our favour and away from Brisbane.

However, factor the Clarke trade in for both Adelaide and Brisbane as part of the same deal and it all makes sense.


ADELAIDE:
Gain Welsh, Clarke, #70
Give #6, #21, #84

BRISBANE:

Gain #6, #21, #32
Lose #15, Clarke, Calthorpe

I believe that though "separate", the Clarke trade was a vital cog in the Colbert move.

(I should also point out that the draft pick numbers given here were the original ones, before final delistings which moved the late picks up a few notches).

Thats it. I remember that Roos got pick 15 for Welsh but I wasn't sure how we got our hands on it. Later Roos ontraded that pick to Geelong as part of the Colbert deal.

 

[tribey]

All I can say is:

Leigh Colbert hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Punchy Bassett]

Originally posted by dyertribe
All I can say is:

Leigh Colbert hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Again apologies for drunkeness from Adelaide united game but could not agree more. Mr Leigh "i want to backstab the club that gave me chance as a footballer to play finals" colbert. HAHHAHAHHAAHAH how many finals since. ZERO! Kane Johnson take notes! Never leave a good tight club that will get you consistsent finals footy

 

[utility]

Originally posted by Punchy Bassett
Again apologies for drunkeness from Adelaide united game but could not agree more. Mr Leigh "i want to backstab the club that gave me chance as a footballer to play finals" colbert. HAHHAHAHHAAHAH how many finals since. ZERO! Kane Johnson take notes! Never leave a good tight club that will get you consistsent finals footy

North have played in four finals (including a prelim) since Colbert moved to Arden Street, Geelong have played just one final... that also wasn't the only reason he left. As for the Welsh trade, he was as good as gone (like NStevens), though not exactly sure what we gave up.

 

[spindoctor]

There's no way we traded up in the draft. Can you see how ridiculous you all sound? There's some real revisionist history here, cos there's NO WAY WHATSOEVER that the Kangaroos would have agreed to lose places in the draft AND lose player. FFS...consider what you write before you write it!

#6 for Clarke
#21 and #84 for Welsh and #70

That would be far more likely...

 

[DaveW]

spindoctor - The trade I wrote of in my first post was the way the AFL's almanac details it.

I think marvin has the right explanation.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by spindoctor
There's no way we traded up in the draft. Can you see how ridiculous you all sound? There's some real revisionist history here, cos there's NO WAY WHATSOEVER that the Kangaroos would have agreed to lose places in the draft AND lose player. FFS...consider what you write before you write it!

#6 for Clarke
#21 and #84 for Welsh and #70

That would be far more likely...

Well as I posted previously this is how I remember it. ie. Pretty positive we only gave up a 1st rounder for Clarke ... which means we a 2nd rounder to get Welsh (along with improving a latter pick). Makes sense to me, even if the AFL site says otherwise.

 

[marvin]

Trust me, I'm right.

Reference 1:

"Geelong received Kangaroos premiership player Cameron Mooney and three draft picks for Colbert, while young 'Roos player Scott Welsh will go to Adelaide along with a draft pick.

Another Kangaroos draft pick will go to Brisbane in return for veteran midfielder David Calthorpe.

One of the draft picks the Cats received for Colbert originally was
Adelaide's and was used in the trade that sent Lions ruckman Matthew Clarke to the Crows."

i.e. - we gave up more than one pick for Clarke.


Reference 2:

Adelaide

Gained -
Matthew Clarke (Bris)
Scott Welsh (Kangaroos)
DP #70 (Kangaroos)
DP #88 (Hawthorn)

Lost -
DP #6 (Brisbane)
DP #21 (Brisbane)
DP #84 (Kangaroos)
Lance Picioane (Hawthorn)

DRAFT: 36, 52, 68, 70, 88

i.e. Brisbane somehow finished up with out first two draft picks that year.

And the trump card:

Reference 3

..."Crows have traded their 6th and 21st draft picks for Matthew Clarke and the 15th pick. The Crows signed Matthew Clarke for three years."

So as I said in my second post in this thread, the trades for Clarke and Welsh were:

First Trade Adelaide traded picks 6 and 21 for Clarke and pick 15
Second Trade Adelaide traded pick 15 and 84 for Welsh and pick 70

Everyone happy with that?

 

[noddy]

Originally posted by marvin
Trust me, I'm right.

[
Everyone happy with that?

Yes, & thank you very much marvin