Unsolved Hunt for Mr Cruel

[Earls Smother]

been reading up on the MC investigations, and wondering why the cops haven't released more info, or clarified existing info. not expecting them to lay their files bare, but when you have conflicting reports with differing info on crimes purported to be committed by MC after all this time, which are still unsolved, why not make a clear cut statement of known facts? these crimes have turned into a game of Chinese whispers so far that its hard to know what is legit.

Based on what info I have found online, I have come up with various thoughts/questions:

LP attack

Attacker has an open face balaclava, as opposed to a closed facial item worn in later linked crimes

Attacker didn't remove the young girl from the premises as in subsequent crimes

Items requested for via the attacker were for food, clothes, shower, shave, and money -basic necessity items

attacker stole cash, clothes, and made himself a meal during ordeal

attacker brought with him multi coloured electrical tape, and some cord of unknown origins. if the tape is what I remember from those days it was sold in packs with multiple colours rather cheaply, aimed towards use by the home mechanic. the stuff never stuck to anything besides itself.

attacker took some records of classical music

attacker used a radio which he tuned to a station not for the hip young crowd, but playing music of classic hits - more something for a middle aged person.

attacker made a phone call (real or fake?) where he called someone bozo. around that time a bozo was an idiot or dumb person, this was something young kids would call each other, or adults would call kids in a joking fashion. quite possible this call was faked for the benefit of the female child victim to exert more psychological control on her.

female child victim was approx 12 years old (age in reports vary)

attacker method of entry is varied in reports. some say he broke a window, others say he removed glass from a window to enter. either way he removed the glass from the crime scene before leaving. why?

attacker took the razor with him after showering and shaving

attacker detained parents before finding kids, then controlled people via restraint and enclosing into wardrobe area. (actual wardrobe or WIR?) attacker also seemed very comfortable with the way the victims were detained as he was happy to spend time elsewhere whilst they were tied up/detained.

Was the above crime part of the Mr cruel series, or was this committed by someone else? whilst there are similarities, there are also contradictions in comparison to the later MC crimes. the intruder told the victims parents he only wanted basic necessities, in other MC crimes the victims were children with absent parents. in this crime the intruder washed, showered and fed himself on site, as opposed to subsequent crimes. the attacker also took clothes, a razor and music recordings from the site with him, all items to use on or for himself, no souvenirs of the children in the attack, or their clothing. attackers choice of food eaten during the incident suggests he wasn't old - food of convenience rather than of flavour or nutritional value. also radio station on the radio suggest not old, possibly around 30ish.

This crime sounds more like a semi-homeless person breaks in, and the attack on the female child is secondary to the original crime concept. other crimes in MC grouping have the female child victim as the criminal focus rather than a secondary idea. Interesting points to consider in this crime though are the attacker had a disguise, came to the site armed with a small handgun and knife, and took evidence of the broken window glass from the site.

The removal of the razor used by the perpetrator and the glass from the window on the face of it seems to be an attempt to remove evidence. Was the attacker cognizant of the use of fingerprints in criminal detection? add in the alleged use of handcuffs and it sounds like there could possibly be ties of some sort to LE.

If this was truly a MC crime, then this was early in the series. MC was refining his technique, and learning from mistakes. in my opinion this was possibly committed by someone else, or there were other unconnected attacks between this incident and the next incident with Sharon Wills.

Great observations. There are detectives that are reluctant to link Karmein Chan to MC, despite very similiar circumstances to Nicola Lynas. Yet they appear happy to link this one to him with more certainty?

One major similiarity between this one and the next offence (Sharon Wills), is they both lived a short walk from their primary school. Sharon travelled between Hillcrest Ave and Antonio Park Primary, basically a straight walk along the service road of Maroondah Hwy. The LP victim went to Lower Plenty Primary and travelled a direct route to home, the address of which we are not allowed to mention. Google maps still has the address pixelated out.

Bradley Edwards was mentioned above. I think like Edwards, something may have triggered MC to carry out the major offences. There may be (and probably is) earlier unlinked stuff, but it appears he started relatively late (age has been put at 30 to mid-30's) and potentially stopped 5-7 years later.

If the trigger was a relationship breakdown, then it sort of fits that he may have been temporarily living as a virtual homeless person. Fights with wife, leaves or is thrown out, stews on it, and commits the offence with the twin purposes. The second of those purposes, is to clean himself up before returning to attempt some sort of reconciliation? Or at least to make it appear as though he has been coping ok?

He just doesn't seem like your normal hopeless case who will offend until caught. I think he was quite capable of NOT offending, as long as he was happy in his "real life" relationship/s.

 

[Ostins_Park]

been reading up on the MC investigations, and wondering why the cops haven't released more info, or clarified existing info. not expecting them to lay their files bare, but when you have conflicting reports with differing info on crimes purported to be committed by MC after all this time, which are still unsolved, why not make a clear cut statement of known facts? these crimes have turned into a game of Chinese whispers so far that its hard to know what is legit.

Based on what info I have found online, I have come up with various thoughts/questions:

LP attack

Attacker has an open face balaclava, as opposed to a closed facial item worn in later linked crimes

Attacker didn't remove the young girl from the premises as in subsequent crimes

Items requested for via the attacker were for food, clothes, shower, shave, and money -basic necessity items

attacker stole cash, clothes, and made himself a meal during ordeal

attacker brought with him multi coloured electrical tape, and some cord of unknown origins. if the tape is what I remember from those days it was sold in packs with multiple colours rather cheaply, aimed towards use by the home mechanic. the stuff never stuck to anything besides itself.

attacker took some records of classical music

attacker used a radio which he tuned to a station not for the hip young crowd, but playing music of classic hits - more something for a middle aged person.

attacker made a phone call (real or fake?) where he called someone bozo. around that time a bozo was an idiot or dumb person, this was something young kids would call each other, or adults would call kids in a joking fashion. quite possible this call was faked for the benefit of the female child victim to exert more psychological control on her.

female child victim was approx 12 years old (age in reports vary)

attacker method of entry is varied in reports. some say he broke a window, others say he removed glass from a window to enter. either way he removed the glass from the crime scene before leaving. why?

attacker took the razor with him after showering and shaving

attacker detained parents before finding kids, then controlled people via restraint and enclosing into wardrobe area. (actual wardrobe or WIR?) attacker also seemed very comfortable with the way the victims were detained as he was happy to spend time elsewhere whilst they were tied up/detained.

Was the above crime part of the Mr cruel series, or was this committed by someone else? whilst there are similarities, there are also contradictions in comparison to the later MC crimes. the intruder told the victims parents he only wanted basic necessities, in other MC crimes the victims were children with absent parents. in this crime the intruder washed, showered and fed himself on site, as opposed to subsequent crimes. the attacker also took clothes, a razor and music recordings from the site with him, all items to use on or for himself, no souvenirs of the children in the attack, or their clothing. attackers choice of food eaten during the incident suggests he wasn't old - food of convenience rather than of flavour or nutritional value. also radio station on the radio suggest not old, possibly around 30ish.

This crime sounds more like a semi-homeless person breaks in, and the attack on the female child is secondary to the original crime concept. other crimes in MC grouping have the female child victim as the criminal focus rather than a secondary idea. Interesting points to consider in this crime though are the attacker had a disguise, came to the site armed with a small handgun and knife, and took evidence of the broken window glass from the site.

The removal of the razor used by the perpetrator and the glass from the window on the face of it seems to be an attempt to remove evidence. Was the attacker cognizant of the use of fingerprints in criminal detection? add in the alleged use of handcuffs and it sounds like there could possibly be ties of some sort to LE.

If this was truly a MC crime, then this was early in the series. MC was refining his technique, and learning from mistakes. in my opinion this was possibly committed by someone else, or there were other unconnected attacks between this incident and the next incident with Sharon Wills.

Krusty, the first thing that comes to mind when I read through your framing of this, is an escaped convict.

He took things of necessity. And the radio station speaks to someone indulging in a pleasure they may have been denied for a long while.

 

[Krusty Crab]

Krusty, the first thing that comes to mind when I read through your framing of this, is an escaped convict.

He took things of necessity. And the radio station speaks to someone indulging in a pleasure they may have been denied for a long while.

From what I remember reading, there are 3 different instances of the attacker using a radio. All 3 were different stations, but all 3 catered for roughly the same age group.

escaped convict, homeless person or bum is the way I'm leaning more on the LP attack. the outfit worn by the attacker in the picture looks like an odd ensemble to wear if your breaking in to a house. the balaclava and eye covering also looks rudimentary, if this was planned in advance and organized, surely he would of gone an enclosed balaclava.

if planned then I would also expect other things to go missing from the house, such as jewellery or small items with high value. the victims in this case must of been somewhat well off at the time, as they had $250 in cash, and a jacket from a trip to South America, so you would expect there was other valuables about.

I'm not 100% this attack is the same person as the SW attack, if it is then the way he went about it changed dramatically between the 2 incidents. I would expect there to be more attacks with a progression, not just abrupt changes. SW and NL attacks I agree likely to be the same person. KC attack has enough similarities in my view to be considered as linked to the other 2, although again I feel there would have been other progressive attacks between NL and KC, as the jump in violence was dramatic.

 

[Krusty Crab]

reading some more about the SW and NL attacks. depending on what version you read, there is some subtle differences which change the tone of the attacks.

interesting points:

MC had a choice of victims to take on more than one occasion, yet he seemed to always end up with a female in roughly the same age bracket.

One version of NL attack says he requested she wear her school blazer, and told her to collect her uniform. another version says he told NL to put on her blazer, and then grabbed other clothes and threw them in a bag. the first version makes it sound like the attacker wanted NL to be in her uniform, the second made it sound like it was cold out side and she needed a jacket, and he grabbed some random clothes that ended up containing pats of her school uniform.

the mention of a camera at the foot of the bed was only listed in the SW attack in most versions, however another site said this also happened in the NL attack.

attacker now has female child victim as reason for breaking in - parents get incapacitated, child gets controlled and organized, MC gets kids clothes and they head off. much different from the LP attack where he hung around to eat and assaulted the female child on site.

attacker has mannerisms that suggests he is a father himself, or looks after/cares for someone else. He gets the girls to put on jackets before leaving, he gets them to brush their teeth and wash often, not just at the end of the ordeal to remove evidence. he gives them food and drink. when releasing them he does so in a gentle non threatening manner, in a place they are likely to be found.

MC now steals opportune items such as cash from wallets or within eyesight, but doesn't go looking for anything else to steal.

MC disguise and outfit now upgraded to boiler suit, full balaclava, gloves.

NL kidnap has fingerprint apparently found on a car out front of the house, and an imprint of something was found on a letter NL had written to her father. No idea what the imprint was of.

MC took NL mother medicare card, d/l, and credit card. Unsure why he would have a use for medicare or d/l?

SW attack MC walked victim to his car, NL attack he took parents rental car from drive way. MC car was parked a few streets away, why not parked a few houses away from attack site?

SW gave description of MC house. colour scheme doesn't seem right for a single bloke (comes across as feminine), motel room/rental/borrowed house? what was under the blanket?

Use of radio again with middle aged station.


These 2 x abductions i would say are committed by same person. planned to the extent of kidnap the girl, get some clothes, and get out. did the plan include the specific premises, and/or person? if the house or victim wasn't planned, then how did MC know the victims would be home without parents? did he break into other houses and if no kids then he left or robbed them for easy pickings? could explain why there was large gaps between each offence. was there a rash of break ins around similar areas and times, with low value thefts? if house/victim was targeted, what was the previous contact point that made MC aware of the victims residence?

At MC house, bedroom colour scheme doesn't suggest a single males house. if this was a motel room then why would the blanket need to be over the shelving unit, what would be there that needs to be hidden. was the bathroom separate to the bedroom (down the hall - single bathroom house), or was it an ensuite? how common was sliding glass doors on showers at that time? I don't recall seeing glass doors on showers in the 80's except for high end houses or hotels.

what was the blanket over the shelving hiding? for me the presence of this blanket makes me think this was a private residence, and the blanket was insurance against identifying features being picked up either by the victim, or by the camera. if this was a motel then there would be nothing of interest on the shelf, or a single persons rental then why wouldn't they simply remove the shelving or contents from the room. I think this was someone else's, or a shared bedroom, and moving these items would draw attention. is it possible MC partner worked away from home - mining or possibly travelled for work? had he maybe separated from his partner, and they still had access to the house?

cleanliness - MC had the victims bathe multiple times, and clean their teeth. He returned them without their clothes, which he either kept or destroyed. fingernails were cleaned prior to being released. People seem to think this means he was a cop or had knowledge of DNA in the late 80's, which is quite unlikely, as most scientists weren't all that up on DNA themselves by this point. what if someone they knew could have been attacked previous, and they knew what the police looked for on the victim afterwards. maybe MC himself was abused in the past, and went through these examinations himself. the elastoplast and eyepatches could have been from elderly relatives and cataract surgery.


Does anyone know if the victim statements, or even questions put to the victims afterwards, have confirmed there was definitely only 1 x person involved? I have a theory that could explain the differences in height, age/description and temperament in the 4 x attacks. perhaps there were 2 x different offenders working together. 1 x offender abducts and deals with the victim, the other is the abuser. this would limit the connection between the abductor and the holding location, and the abuser wouldn't have anything that links them to the abduction. the 2 x attackers could even swap roles to keep LE confused, and ensure each other had alibis for some of the attacks.

 

[Earls Smother]

reading some more about the SW and NL attacks. depending on what version you read, there is some subtle differences which change the tone of the attacks.

interesting points:

MC had a choice of victims to take on more than one occasion, yet he seemed to always end up with a female in roughly the same age bracket.

Well done on provoking discussion.

I suppose you could argue the later ones were older. LP was 11, Sharon was 10 (and very small for 10). They were both at primary school. Then Nicola and Karmein were 13 and at secondary school. The only change he would have to have been aware of, was the primary v secondary school aspect.

One version of NL attack says he requested she wear her school blazer, and told her to collect her uniform. another version says he told NL to put on her blazer, and then grabbed other clothes and threw them in a bag. the first version makes it sound like the attacker wanted NL to be in her uniform, the second made it sound like it was cold out side and she needed a jacket, and he grabbed some random clothes that ended up containing pats of her school uniform.

There is no doubt with Nicola he wanted to dress her up. Took the school uniform and also her tennis uniform.

the mention of a camera at the foot of the bed was only listed in the SW attack in most versions, however another site said this also happened in the NL attack.

Frustrating lack of consistency with reporting. You would have to assume if he filmed the first one, it is very likely he filmed the second.

attacker now has female child victim as reason for breaking in - parents get incapacitated, child gets controlled and organized, MC gets kids clothes and they head off. much different from the LP attack where he hung around to eat and assaulted the female child on site.

Parents home for Sharon. Not home for Nicola or Karmein. Didn't seem to matter to him?

attacker has mannerisms that suggests he is a father himself, or looks after/cares for someone else. He gets the girls to put on jackets before leaving, he gets them to brush their teeth and wash often, not just at the end of the ordeal to remove evidence. he gives them food and drink. when releasing them he does so in a gentle non threatening manner, in a place they are likely to be found.

Totally agree. Wonder if his daughter was born around 1977/78 and was of similiar age to the girls?

MC now steals opportune items such as cash from wallets or within eyesight, but doesn't go looking for anything else to steal.

Red herring peripheral stuff to try and minimise an over-reaction from someone in the house. I'd risk my life for my daughter, but not for money.

MC disguise and outfit now upgraded to boiler suit, full balaclava, gloves.

Hard to analyse the clothing. Anything but his normal everyday wear. Early stuff could have been from the op shop. Boilersuit could be related to his work. Joggers were consistent in case he had to run.

Balaclava is interesting. The open-faced one is typical for use in welding. It's feasible he had multiple for this purpose, then just sewed the opening closed, leaving the 2 eyeholes.

Welding also would have been a handy skill to manufacture some form of bracket for the neck brace. Also could enable adjustment of a tripod to support a camera.

NL kidnap has fingerprint apparently found on a car out front of the house, and an imprint of something was found on a letter NL had written to her father. No idea what the imprint was of.

MC took NL mother medicare card, d/l, and credit card. Unsure why he would have a use for medicare or d/l?

Hopefully they do have the fingerprint.

SW attack MC walked victim to his car, NL attack he took parents rental car from drive way. MC car was parked a few streets away, why not parked a few houses away from attack site?

He always parked far enough away, so that if he had to run and temporarily abandon the car, it wouldn't be linked to the attack.

NL was just luck the keys were there. His original plan would have been walking. He couldn't have known the parents wouldn't have the keys with them.

SW gave description of MC house. colour scheme doesn't seem right for a single bloke (comes across as feminine), motel room/rental/borrowed house? what was under the blanket?

Very unlikely to be his actual house. Why would he drive all the way to Bayswater after no sleep since Christmas night (and nearly smash the car), if he lived near the airport?

Stale vegemite sandwich suggests he had bugger-all food available to him at the detention house.

Use of radio again with middle aged station.

Yep, but could be the usual red herring.

These 2 x abductions i would say are committed by same person. planned to the extent of kidnap the girl, get some clothes, and get out. did the plan include the specific premises, and/or person? if the house or victim wasn't planned, then how did MC know the victims would be home without parents? did he break into other houses and if no kids then he left or robbed them for easy pickings? could explain why there was large gaps between each offence. was there a rash of break ins around similar areas and times, with low value thefts? if house/victim was targeted, what was the previous contact point that made MC aware of the victims residence?

At MC house, bedroom colour scheme doesn't suggest a single males house. if this was a motel room then why would the blanket need to be over the shelving unit, what would be there that needs to be hidden. was the bathroom separate to the bedroom (down the hall - single bathroom house), or was it an ensuite? how common was sliding glass doors on showers at that time? I don't recall seeing glass doors on showers in the 80's except for high end houses or hotels.

what was the blanket over the shelving hiding? for me the presence of this blanket makes me think this was a private residence, and the blanket was insurance against identifying features being picked up either by the victim, or by the camera. if this was a motel then there would be nothing of interest on the shelf, or a single persons rental then why wouldn't they simply remove the shelving or contents from the room. I think this was someone else's, or a shared bedroom, and moving these items would draw attention. is it possible MC partner worked away from home - mining or possibly travelled for work? had he maybe separated from his partner, and they still had access to the house?

For 37 years there has been a blanket. Then Melbourne Marvels says on reddit very recently, there wasn't. He has apparently seen files. I cannot explain that discrepancy.

Assuming there was. I think he was using someone else's place and he was hiding their personal items just in case the girls described them and the owners recognised them.

cleanliness - MC had the victims bathe multiple times, and clean their teeth. He returned them without their clothes, which he either kept or destroyed. fingernails were cleaned prior to being released. People seem to think this means he was a cop or had knowledge of DNA in the late 80's, which is quite unlikely, as most scientists weren't all that up on DNA themselves by this point. what if someone they knew could have been attacked previous, and they knew what the police looked for on the victim afterwards. maybe MC himself was abused in the past, and went through these examinations himself. the elastoplast and eyepatches could have been from elderly relatives and cataract surgery.

I reckon he was a borderline OCD clean freak. MM has confirmed some of the earlier (suspected related) attacks as being similiar. I really wonder what he would have done if one of them had their period.

Does anyone know if the victim statements, or even questions put to the victims afterwards, have confirmed there was definitely only 1 x person involved? I have a theory that could explain the differences in height, age/description and temperament in the 4 x attacks. perhaps there were 2 x different offenders working together. 1 x offender abducts and deals with the victim, the other is the abuser. this would limit the connection between the abductor and the holding location, and the abuser wouldn't have anything that links them to the abduction. the 2 x attackers could even swap roles to keep LE confused, and ensure each other had alibis for some of the attacks.

Not impossible. Adam Shand reckons there was never just one MC.

 

[Inspector Small]

I reckon he was a borderline OCD clean freak. MM has confirmed some of the earlier (suspected related) attacks as being similiar. I really wonder what he would have done if one of them had their period.

Just a word of caution, People think OCD means clean freaks. It’s not quite right.

They have an obsession about something terrible is going to happen and then compulsively perform an action to prevent that terrible event from happening. It’s a kind of magical thinking. I will give an example:

‘I think I will molest a child’ is the obsession. I am such a terrible person for thinking that and carry out a compulsion to prevent it from happening. Often the compulsion is to self mutilate in order to punish themselves. These people are tortured by their own thoughts. By mutilating themselves they then relieve the anxiety.

Many serial killers have OCD. Most are also psychopaths.

OCD has many forms. Clean freaks with OCD clean to magically prevent a catastrophe. I met one person who cleaned at one time of day to prevent train crash.

Some people however are just clean freaks.

 

[Earls Smother]

Just a word of caution, People think OCD means clean freaks. It’s not quite right.

They have an obsession about something terrible is going to happen and then compulsively perform an action to prevent that terrible event from happening. It’s a kind of magical thinking. I will give an example:

‘I think I will molest a child’ is the obsession. I am such a terrible person for thinking that and carry out a compulsion to prevent it from happening. Often the compulsion is to self mutilate in order to punish themselves. These people are tortured by their own thoughts.

Many serial killers have OCD. Most are also psychopaths.

OCD has many forms. Clean freaks with OCD clean to magically prevent a catastrophe. Some people are just clean freaks.

I am by no means an expert, but I realise there are different forms of OCD. It's interesting you say many serial killers have OCD.

This bloke was known to obsessively clean both the sites and the girls. Its always been assumed he was just ahead of his time in regard to forensic awareness, and he probably was. However, the earlier offences around Hampton from 1985, involved similiar cleaning of the victims (MM has seen the files and attests to this). The earlier the offences were, the less likely the offender had any real knowledge of DNA etc.

He not only cleaned the girls after the offences, but prior and during (in the cases of SW and NL). That doesn't really fit with cleaning for forensic purposes. I think they should have pushed this angle harder, because it is impossible to believe these traits wouldn't be on display in his relationships. There are women out there who know this bloke.

What if someone was molested as a child and had the same abnormal feelings towards his own daughter. It relates to your paragraphs 2 and 3 above. He hates himself for feeling this way. So he uses substitute victims, but he treats them as well as he possibly can and "cleans" the dirty acts. There is an obvious reason to target pre-pubescent girls as well. He is also obsessive about not being caught, which causes him to have to do something he never wanted to do with Karmein.

This bloke is pretty unique, which has contributed to all the usual profiles being useless thus far.

 

[Inspector Small]

I am by no means an expert, but I realise there are different forms of OCD. It's interesting you say many serial killers have OCD.

This bloke was known to obsessively clean both the sites and the girls. Its always been assumed he was just ahead of his time in regard to forensic awareness, and he probably was. However, the earlier offences around Hampton from 1985, involved similiar cleaning of the victims (MM has seen the files and attests to this). The earlier the offences were, the less likely the offender had any real knowledge of DNA etc.

He not only cleaned the girls after the offences, but prior and during (in the cases of SW and NL). That doesn't really fit with cleaning for forensic purposes. I think they should have pushed this angle harder, because it is impossible to believe these traits wouldn't be on display in his relationships. There are women out there who know this bloke.

What if someone was molested as a child and had the same abnormal feelings towards his own daughter. It relates to your paragraphs 2 and 3 above. He hates himself for feeling this way. So he uses substitute victims, but he treats them as well as he possibly can and "cleans" the dirty acts. There is an obvious reason to target pre-pubescent girls as well. He is also obsessive about not being caught, which causes him to have to do something he never wanted to do with Karmein.

This bloke is pretty unique, which has contributed to all the usual profiles being useless thus far.

In terms of serial killers I give you an example.

Let’s look at Jack the Ripper.

I have the obsession to cut out a woman’s uterus.

It’s a deep rooted anxiety which can only be relieved by one of two ways.

He either carries out the deed thereby getting the relief of his anxiety.
Or
He carries out another task which he substitutes. This maybe to masturbate using the organs he has collected from his victims. That may be the compulsion.

In terms of Mr Cruel. His obsession was to kidnap teenage school girls and treat them like his wife and pretend he was married and cared for them. The anxiety was relieved by carrying out the deed. I would have to say this compulsion is a bit too complex in my knowledge of OCD. It’s usually much simpler.

To be honest I am not sure about KC. I am in the group that thinks he only abducted SW and NL. Notice how SW thinks his voice is eloquent and NL thinks he is rough. This reflects the children’s upbringing and background rather than it being a different perp. Who ever did KC copied the MO to disguise the motive.

I am in the group that also thinks this may have been a police officer. The reason being that in addition to what everyone else has pointed out is his usage of language. He uses the term ‘police surgeon’.

This is a term not in common usage. It’s a term used by police officers predominantly in my experience. The general community does not use the term at all. It’s somebody close to police or somebody involved in the process of evidence collection.

I don’t think Mr Cruel has OCD.

 

[Earls Smother]

In terms of serial killers I give you an example.

Let’s look at Jack the Ripper.

I have the obsession to cut out a woman’s uterus.

It’s a deep rooted anxiety which can only be relieved by one of two ways.

He either carries out the deed thereby getting the relief of his anxiety.
Or
He carries out another task which he substitutes. This maybe to masturbate using the organs he has collected from his victims. That may be the compulsion.

In terms of Mr Cruel. His obsession was to kidnap teenage school girls and treat them like his wife and pretend he was married and cared for them. The anxiety was relieved by carrying out the deed. I would have to say this compulsion is a bit too complex in my knowledge of OCD. It’s usually much simpler.

To be honest I am not sure about KC. I am in the group that thinks he only abducted SW and NL. Notice how SW thinks his voice is eloquent and NL thinks he is rough. This reflects the children’s upbringing and background rather than it being a different perp. Who ever did KC copied the MO to disguise the motive.

I am in the group that also thinks this may have been a police officer. The reason being that in addition to what everyone else has pointed out is his usage of language. He uses the term ‘police surgeon’.

This is a term not in common usage. It’s a term used by police officers predominantly in my experience. The general community does not use the term at all. It’s somebody close to police or somebody involved in the process of evidence collection.

I don’t think Mr Cruel has OCD.

I'm happy with a connection to police. Maybe originally married to one, someone in the family is/was an officer.

Maybe he tried to get into the police force and was rejected? Always had an interest, read a lot of related literature. Then missed out and has held a grudge? There certainly seems to be an element of thumbing his nose at police with a lot of his red herrings.

 

[Inspector Small]

I'm happy with a connection to police. Maybe originally married to one, someone in the family is/was an officer.

Maybe he tried to get into the police force and was rejected? Always had an interest, read a lot of related literature. Then missed out and has held a grudge? There certainly seems to be an element of thumbing his nose at police with a lot of his red herrings.

I agree. I think his primary motivation is to thumb his nose at his colleagues. I am not convinced he is your typical sex offender. I think he uses rape and kidnapping as tools to make them look like fools.

Just read about him watching the TV and the joy he receives from watching the coverage. That’s why he does what he does.

If you know the case of Robert Dangelo, a police officer who was the east area rapist and the Visalia ramsacker, you will know that is what his motivation is. Robert did it to prove his superiority over his colleagues. There is one police officer that I think needs investigation in Victoria but I seriously can’t mention them. People will laugh at me for saying it. He definitely is a psychopath and there is circumstantial evidence which troubles me.

I would love to play his voice to SW and NL to see if they recognise it.

 

[GreyCrow]

There is one police officer that I think needs investigation in Victoria but I seriously can’t mention them. People will laugh at me for saying it. He definitely is a psychopath and there is circumstantial evidence which troubles me.

Is that the bloke from country Victoria

 

[Inspector Small]

Is that the bloke from country Victoria

Yes do you know him.

 

[GreyCrow]

Yes do you know him.

I know of him

 

[Inspector Small]

I know of him

We can’t really out anyone without sufficient evidence of direct involvement.

I am at the stage of thinking he is someone that should be investigated. Nothing more significant. He has never been charged with a crime. There is some circumstantial evidence that I found a bit odd.

 

[Ostins_Park]

I have a concern with the idea that because MC is so meticulous and knowledgeable, he must he ex police, military, etc.

There are tons of career crims inside and outside our prisons who learn all the skills of breaking and entering. The ones who stay out of jail are the ones who are precise with, for example, removing windows.

This is why I think NL is the final victim. He's filthy at himself for the fingerprint on the car.

 

[Ostins_Park]

Back to the Lower Plenty attack. I've refined my idea that he was an escaped convict, into something similar. He's a career crim who's just come off a big job. Maybe a crime spree, bank jobs or something. Hence the need to change appearance (shaving), the need for supplies (he is about to hole up somewhere).

And during the crime spree, something has gone wrong. Maybe he got ripped off, or framed. Something has caused him to lose control, so he regains that sense of control via the LP attack.

To pursue this thesis of the career crim who is framed, blackmailed, or ripped off, it's necessary to look at armed robberies and breaking, enter crimes in the lead up to LP.

 

[Ostins_Park]

Regarding the house used in the SW and NL cases. It's got to be 'not his house' but a house he knows well, and trusts that he won't be disturbed. Only one thing makes sense. It's his Mums house. He's house sitting while she is interstate.

 

[GreyCrow]

Back to the Lower Plenty attack. I've refined my idea that he was an escaped convict, into something similar. He's a career crim who's just come off a big job. Maybe a crime spree, bank jobs or something. Hence the need to change appearance (shaving), the need for supplies (he is about to hole up somewhere).

And during the crime spree, something has gone wrong. Maybe he got ripped off, or framed. Something has caused him to lose control, so he regains that sense of control via the LP attack.

To pursue this thesis of the career crim who is framed, blackmailed, or ripped off, it's necessary to look at armed robberies and breaking, enter crimes in the lead up to LP.

Doesnt this lead to the Normie Lee scenario?

 

[Krusty Crab]

I agree. I think his primary motivation is to thumb his nose at his colleagues. I am not convinced he is your typical sex offender. I think he uses rape and kidnapping as tools to make them look like fools.

Just read about him watching the TV and the joy he receives from watching the coverage. That’s why he does what he does.

If you know the case of Robert Dangelo, a police officer who was the east area rapist and the Visalia ramsacker, you will know that is what his motivation is. Robert did it to prove his superiority over his colleagues. There is one police officer that I think needs investigation in Victoria but I seriously can’t mention them. People will laugh at me for saying it. He definitely is a psychopath and there is circumstantial evidence which troubles me.

I would love to play his voice to SW and NL to see if they recognise it.

does this cop first name start with D?

I do recall hearing MC commenting to one of the victims about a radio news report about his crime, but haven't seen anything saying he watched himself on tv?

There was also something about he told the sister of a victim he wanted $25k for her return, did anyone receive actual demands or instructions for a pay off to release a victim, and how did these details get passed on?

 

[Ostins_Park]

Doesnt this lead to the Normie Lee scenario?

You're right. Just looked into Lee and realised I read about him a year ago so likely was forming ideas subconsciously.

But my thinking this morning still stands. A career crim. I don't like Normie for it because they had plenty of ways to fit him up for MC if they wanted. His earlier trials and arrests would have provided a basis for the suspect fingerprint left on the car in the NL case. You can't rule him out on that alone, but he doesn't fit the description of the LP attacker either. Or the guy in the car who turned away from the driver in the near collision out Bayswater way.

I'd wager he, and a few others, suspected who MC was. But they don't talk...

 

[Inspector Small]

does this cop first name start with D?

I do recall hearing MC commenting to one of the victims about a radio news report about his crime, but haven't seen anything saying he watched himself on tv?

There was also something about he told the sister of a victim he wanted $25k for her return, did anyone receive actual demands or instructions for a pay off to release a victim, and how did these details get passed on?

I meant radio not tv. I can’t confirm or deny your initials. It would eventually out him.

 

[Inspector Small]

You're right. Just looked into Lee and realised I read about him a year ago so likely was forming ideas subconsciously.

But my thinking this morning still stands. A career crim. I don't like Normie for it because they had plenty of ways to fit him up for MC if they wanted. His earlier trials and arrests would have provided a basis for the suspect fingerprint left on the car in the NL case. You can't rule him out on that alone, but he doesn't fit the description of the LP attacker either. Or the guy in the car who turned away from the driver in the near collision out Bayswater way.

I'd wager he, and a few others, suspected who MC was. But they don't talk...

I think Norman Lee as a suspect has been deliberately thrown into the conversation as a red Herring.

I know who said this. At the time he was having a beef with the Victoria police and had commenced legal action. He basically claimed that he told the police about the confession and we know there was no follow up. Many ex crims said he was lying.

MC had reddish brown hair with a pot belly. Norman Lee looked nothing like this.

 

[Ostins_Park]

Potentially Normie L for the KC murder, but only if we accept that KC is not a Mr Cruel attack. Because as you say, Lee isn't the guy for LP, SW, NL crimes.

You can imagine the thinking: "make it look like one of those kidnappings that's been going on".

 

[Ostins_Park]

Coming back to what is the strongest clue in the whole case, the detention house. Let's run this to ground a little more.

He has access to the house, but it's not his house. But he's careful enough to hide personal effects on the shelf in the house. Hence my earlier suggestion it's his Mums house. Somewhere he knows, and trusts, and cares about.

So where is Mum? She must be still alive, or he'd move the belongings. And she can't be local, in case she comes back and springs him. So, she's away, for a period of days. Maybe a hospital stay, but that would still be local and risky. So she's interstate. He knows exactly how long shes away for. Its a fixed duration. She lives near the airport which is handy for her regular (ish) flights. Where is she going?

Well if MC is in his 30s, Mums must be, say, early 60s. She's flying interstate to see her elderly Mum back home, in ...who knows... Sydney, lets say.

And where's the dad? Either dead or separated, since he wouldn't fly to his in laws every time, and he's not at the house.

So the lead I'd be following here if I was law enforcement, with access to databases etc, is a local 30 ish career crim who's Mum travels interstate to the same location at least once a year. And also the Vacationer car. If this hypothesis has any merit, the car is registered in Mum or Dads name, after all, what self respecting career crim registers their vehicle in their own name?

 

[johnymac1]

Coming back to what is the strongest clue in the whole case, the detention house. Let's run this to ground a little more.

He has access to the house, but it's not his house. But he's careful enough to hide personal effects on the shelf in the house. Hence my earlier suggestion it's his Mums house. Somewhere he knows, and trusts, and cares about.

So where is Mum? She must be still alive, or he'd move the belongings. And she can't be local, in case she comes back and springs him. So, she's away, for a period of days. Maybe a hospital stay, but that would still be local and risky. So she's interstate. He knows exactly how long shes away for. Its a fixed duration. She lives near the airport which is handy for her regular (ish) flights. Where is she going?

Well if MC is in his 30s, Mums must be, say, early 60s. She's flying interstate to see her elderly Mum back home, in ...who knows... Sydney, lets say.

And where's the dad? Either dead or separated, since he wouldn't fly to his in laws every time, and he's not at the house.

So the lead I'd be following here if I was law enforcement, with access to databases etc, is a local 30 ish career crim who's Mum travels interstate to the same location at least once a year. And also the Vacationer car. If this hypothesis has any merit, the car is registered in Mum or Dads name, after all, what self respecting career crim registers their vehicle in their own name?

the car was in poor condition mechanically, misfiring and stalling. he made excuses to the victim. "it wasn't his"