Improving our depth

[MEH TIGER]

Like most supporters at the moment I am really happy with how the team is developing, the mid feild , the forward line and even the defence have taken great steps so far this year. I have been starting to think about what we will target in the draft and trading period to improve our depth at the end of the year.

I see on one of the other threads the discussion on Griff, where to play him, what a great position to be in now with the emergence of Vickery. So I think KPF we are OK.

In the middle we have really shown improvement this year in numbers and depth, Foley back, Nahas, Conca, and maybe run Batchular through there next year. We are in good shape. Maybe one more of qualtity

In defence although I am stoked with Rance and Grimes but we lack depth and we still dont have the real KPB, the big unit.

I am thinking we should give our compensation pick to Port for Trengove and use our first pick on best available( hopefully a mid), then go small forward and ruck? What does everyone think?

 

[nut]

Like most supporters at the moment I am really happy with how the team is developing, the mid feild , the forward line and even the defence have taken great steps so far this year. I have been starting to think about what we will target in the draft and trading period to improve our depth at the end of the year.

I see on one of the other threads the discussion on Griff, where to play him, what a great position to be in now with the emergence of Vickery. So I think KPF we are OK.

In the middle we have really shown improvement this year in numbers and depth, Foley back, Nahas, Conca, and maybe run Batchular through there next year. We are in good shape. Maybe one more of qualtity

In defence although I am stoked with Rance and Grimes but we lack depth and we still dont have the real KPB, the big unit.

I am thinking we should give our compensation pick to Port for Trengove and use our first pick on best available( hopefully a mid), then go small forward and ruck? What does everyone think?

I am under the impression you have to nominate whether or not you are going to use the compensation pick before the season starts, is that correct?

I say save it.

 

[TigerTime88]

If we were to use our first pick on another Conca type then our midfield would be complete. By Conca type I mean a gun who can come in and make an immediate impact.

Vickery is looking very good as a tall forward but also a ruckman. I think in the long run he will become our number 1 ruck. This means we are relying on Post/Griff to come through and take the 2nd tall forward spot. Content with that.

I think you speak the truth about having a big tall defender. Trengove seems ok but we wouldn't want to overpay for him and Port would want us too. Compo pick would be fair.

I think we should then look at a small forward option and midfielders for depth.

Wouldn't mind getting the best mature age midfielder in the country this year either. If we can get someone with the contribution of Curnow or Barlow its only going to increasing our midfield depth at worst.

 

[Slattery_20]

On the 'overpaying'.

Why on earth would Port take a pick the same, or lower, for a player who can only have improved his stocks?? At the time he went pick 22 (odd) coming off a season of no footy, through injury. Your compo pick will be what... 30?
In terms of importance to where the club's at, it'd be like you giving up Reiwoldt start of last year or the Hawks giving up Franklin in about 2006.
Just not even, in the least bit, remotely, likely to do it for anything but an improvement, and a fair one at that, on their draft position.

Draft picks around here are ridiculously over-rated. Maybe he wouldn't be worth that value to you, but on an open market you'd have to pay that to get him.

 

[TOOs_Finest]

If we were to finish lower mid-table, lets say 8-12. We will end up with a mid-teens draft pick. I'd like us to do everything possible to upgrade that, most likely by offloading a mature body to GWS for an upgrade, say from approx pick 15 to top 10. Hard to know just how willing GWS will be to do something like that.

Then whatever first round pick we have at our disposal, as amcre said, use it on the best mid available.

Keep our eyes open for a reliable tall, don't really care if they're a forward or back. Basically develop them for our needs, most likely as a back. At the end of the day, if we can add four more very god ball users to the group, then we can be flexible as to what roles we develop them for.

 

[Slattery_20]

It's weird. Start of the year I would've agreed.
But now:
Rance has improved - genuinely best side, Grimes has been good, if not assured - but enough to go on with, Moore will be back as the 3rd tall/Mr Fixit, then Gourdis (who knows) and maybe keep McGuane for one more deal.
I don't see that as a problem at all in terms of the likely 22 out there. Sure, add another kid or two to develop & play if absolutely necessary, but not a glaring hole IMHO.

Probably the worst placed list in terms of having mature bodies to offload.
No real rush (in terms of players possibly leaving/retiring) to do anything other than head to the draft.

 

[Greggy]

On the 'overpaying'.

Why on earth would Port take a pick the same, or lower, for a player who can only have improved his stocks?? At the time he went pick 22 (odd) coming off a season of no footy, through injury. Your compo pick will be what... 30?
In terms of importance to where the club's at, it'd be like you giving up Reiwoldt start of last year or the Hawks giving up Franklin in about 2006.
Just not even, in the least bit, remotely, likely to do it for anything but an improvement, and a fair one at that, on their draft position.

Draft picks around here are ridiculously over-rated. Maybe he wouldn't be worth that value to you, but on an open market you'd have to pay that to get him.

IIRC the compo pick if used in 2 or 3 years will be early 20's

 

[Slattery_20]

IIRC the compo pick if used in 2 or 3 years will be early 20's

K.
So... you take player X with pick Y, knowing full well there's a fair injury risk & he might not play a lot of footy.
Club's going woefully, young player X stands up.
4 years down the track, someone offers a virtually identical pick to give that player away?

Not even Peter Rohde would do that.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

It's weird. Start of the year I would've agreed.
But now:
Rance has improved - genuinely best side, Grimes has been good, if not assured - but enough to go on with, Moore will be back as the 3rd tall/Mr Fixit, then Gourdis (who knows) and maybe keep McGuane for one more deal.
I don't see that as a problem at all in terms of the likely 22 out there. Sure, add another kid or two to develop & play if absolutely necessary, but not a glaring hole IMHO.

Probably the worst placed list in terms of having mature bodies to offload.
No real rush (in terms of players possibly leaving/retiring) to do anything other than head to the draft.

Unless one of Astbury/Post come back in and own CHB for the rest of the year and then goes and bulks up to 95-100kg, we still have a glaring hole and that is a big bodied KPD to take a petrie, hille etc. Trengove would be great. Lachlan Keeffe would be good, at the moment he is looking pretty likely to get the world record for most times named emergency in a season! Someone closer to 200cm than 190cm and with at least the potential to bulk up to over 95kg would be ideal. I thought Gourdis was going to own full back after the back end of last year

 

[Greggy]

K.
So... you take player X with pick Y, knowing full well there's a fair injury risk & he might not play a lot of footy.
Club's going woefully, young player X stands up.
4 years down the track, someone offers a virtually identical pick to give that player away?

Not even Peter Rohde would do that.

"If" he wants to leave it's a perfect replacement for Port, and who wouldn't want to leave? I understand the logic you're using, but Port are a basket case and players will be wanting to leave, like mice jumping off a sinking ship.

Is he out of contract at seasons end?

 

[Slattery_20]

Keeffe hasn't played yet so I'll reserve judgement.

Good > huge from my POV.
If we'd hit our kicks perfectly, then yeah there's no way a guy like Rance could get a fist into Hille/Ryder.
But as you saw on the weekend, as soon as the disposal's that little bit off, and the ball is hitting the deck, the shorter, more agile guy has the advantage.

If the forwards are being hit on the tit it doesn't matter how big or good you are.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

"If" he wants to leave it's a perfect replacement for Port, and who wouldn't want to leave? I understand the logic you're using, but Port are a basket case and players will be wanting to leave, like mice jumping off a sinking ship.

Is he out of contract at seasons end?

If he is, we are out of contention surely? GWS could offer him twice what we would be prepared to offer.

Best case scenario - he has 1 year left. Meaning that Port could lose him for a compo pick in a years time (which may be somewhere in the 20s/30s). Therefore they may be more inclined to listen to an offer from us of a pick in the high teens/low 20s this year (factoring in the time value of draft picks, its alot better than the compo pick a year later!).

 

[Slattery_20]

"If" he wants to leave it's a perfect replacement for Port, and who wouldn't want to leave? I understand the logic you're using, but Port are a basket case and players will be wanting to leave, like mice jumping off a sinking ship.

Players may want to leave. WCE were a basket case last year & Tigs before that and Dees before that, didn't see a heap of highly rated young guys with secure positions wanting to jump ship in those cases.
He'll be able to name his own price.

Is he out of contract at seasons end?

No idea. He signed for three initially, I do know that much, is this the third?

 

[Greggy]

Unless one of Astbury/Post come back in and own CHB for the rest of the year and then goes and bulks up to 95-100kg, we still have a glaring hole and that is a big bodied KPD to take a petrie, hille etc. Trengove would be great. Lachlan Keeffe would be good, at the moment he is looking pretty likely to get the world record for most times named emergency in a season! Someone closer to 200cm than 190cm and with at least the potential to bulk up to over 95kg would be ideal. I thought Gourdis was going to own full back after the back end of last year

Gourdis doesn't fit our selection criteria anymore, having him and McGuanne in defence together would be a liability.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

Keeffe hasn't played yet so I'll reserve judgement.

Good > huge from my POV.
If we'd hit our kicks perfectly, then yeah there's no way a guy like Rance could get a fist into Hille/Ryder.
But as you saw on the weekend, as soon as the disposal's that little bit off, and the ball is hitting the deck, the shorter, more agile guy has the advantage.

If the forwards are being hit on the tit it doesn't matter how big or good you are.

Keefe has the athleticism and pace to complete at ground level with smaller opponents. Can also play in the ruck.

It would be handy to have a guy who can at least contain a monster forward 1 on 1. Petrie sometimes had 2 of our guys on him, and still dominated.

I would seriously consider giving up almost any player on our list except the big 4 (deledio, cotchin, martin and riewoldt) for Daniel Merrett.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

Gourdis doesn't fit our selection criteria anymore, having him and McGuanne in defence together would be a liability.

Gourdis should be better than McGuane. Taller, stronger and faster. Yes, his disposal is questionable, but everything with this guy is linked to confidence. I'd like to see what could happen if we get him 5-10 solid AFL games in a row. Doesn't look like that will happen, and he will probably be delisted at the end of the year

 

[Greggy]

Players may want to leave. WCE were a basket case last year & Tigs before that and Dees before that, didn't see a heap of highly rated young guys with secure positions wanting to jump ship in those cases.
He'll be able to name his own price.


No idea. He signed for three initially, I do know that much, is this the third?

We don't desperately need a Trengove from another club anyway, sure it would help but I think we already have the big KPD in Rance, he's 194cm and 93kg, compare that to the 2 greatest fullbacks of the modern era, Silvagni 194cm and 95kg and Scarlett 192cm and 94kg. He is a similar type to Silvagni, with time he could develop into one of the great stoppers in the comp.

 

[Greggy]

Gourdis should be better than McGuane. Taller, stronger and faster. Yes, his disposal is questionable, but everything with this guy is linked to confidence. I'd like to see what could happen if we get him 5-10 solid AFL games in a row. Doesn't look like that will happen, and he will probably be delisted at the end of the year

The key issue is he's a shockingly inconsistant kick, even when under no pressure, athletically he's impressive but game sense etc are just mediocre, maybe if he took up the limited kicking role McGuane has been doing then he could be of use, but his game is all about run and carry from defence.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

We don't desperately need a Trengove from another club anyway, sure it would help but I think we already have the big KPD in Rance, he's 194cm and 93kg, compare that to the 2 greatest fullbacks of the modern era, Silvagni 194cm and 95kg and Scarlett 192cm and 94kg. He is a similar type to Silvagni, with time he could develop into one of the great stoppers in the comp.

I feel that Rance's main area of improvement is that he has developed his offensive skills and confidence in his own run and carry and disposal. In terms of actually playing the stopper role, we haven't really seen him dominate an opponent (perhaps in his whole career?). Grimes was actually the one who was shutting down opponents week after week, and was quite often coming in as 3rd man up to help Rance and McGuane out. I'd say Rance was just breaking even with his opponents, but then punishing them on the rebound.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

The key issue is he's a shockingly inconsistant kick, even when under no pressure, athletically he's impressive but game sense etc are just mediocre, maybe if he took up the limited kicking role McGuane has been doing then he could be of use, but his game is all about run and carry from defence.

Agree with all of that except the run and carry bit. He has explosive speed off the mark but a reasonably poor tank in comparison. Not sure he has the tank to do what Rance does. As such, I think you are spot on in that McGuane and Gourdis are competing for the one spot - the shut down full back. All Gourdis needs to improve in that regard is his positioning/game sense which is reasonably poor. But so is McGuanes (seems to get caught under the ball alot more than say Thursfield, who can read the drop of the ball pretty well and apply a spoil...shame thats all he can do!)

 

[rammbo]

No way we should b trading off our first 2 picks in draft just take the best 2 available that meet dimmers hardness ,kicking,versitility criteria ,then target young keys and in the preseason rookie draft target a cup of dx type rucks under no circumstance should we take slow lumbering big guys ,they must hav athletic ability.

 

[Roar Metre]

It would be good to have a monster key back but honestly how many are there in the league? Geelong won a flag and is a top 2 side with Lonergan defending the biggest forward.

Rance is quality one on one, and played well above his height on the weekend because Essendon were kicking it to Bellchambers one out, not on the lead and Rance is great in the wrestle.

I don't see what the pre-occupation with trading our picks for players is - rather build from the ground up and we still have Astbury getting some confidence and form in the 2's, and he looked great last year, coming on alot quicker than expected.

 

[Slattery_20]

Keefe has the athleticism and pace to complete at ground level with smaller opponents. Can also play in the ruck.

So I read.
Yet they prefer Goldsack (& co); even going against McKernan/Tippett/Sellar who are all that ruck/fwd height. Interesting, no?

It would be handy to have a guy who can at least contain a monster forward 1 on 1. Petrie sometimes had 2 of our guys on him, and still dominated.

Your midfield pressure was shizen that week and you flashed in & out of the game. When it was up, and you had some consistency, and just a couple of games into Grimes, you had no problem with Ryder & Hille.

I would seriously consider giving up almost any player on our list except the big 4 (deledio, cotchin, martin and riewoldt) for Daniel Merrett.

There you go.
5 years ago, when he started, and he was in his 20s then, he was nothing. Not unlike Brian Lake (couple of years older).
I think you can find these guys if you're prepared to be patient.

 

[Greggy]

I feel that Rance's main area of improvement is that he has developed his offensive skills and confidence in his own run and carry and disposal. In terms of actually playing the stopper role, we haven't really seen him dominate an opponent (perhaps in his whole career?). Grimes was actually the one who was shutting down opponents week after week, and was quite often coming in as 3rd man up to help Rance and McGuane out. I'd say Rance was just breaking even with his opponents, but then punishing them on the rebound.

Yeah, but that can change with confidence and time, he showed against big Hille that he can use his strength and body positioning to spoil and rebound in one play. I think Leppa will be working on these things over the next few years with him, we'll see huge improvement IMO. Scarlett relies on Milburn and Taylor to come across and spoil as he holds out his opponent, if Rance can just get his body in the right positions during contests he'll be huge for our future.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Midfield depth is the most vital area and where I think we are worst off.

On KP's. They take years and our defenders in particular are young and we won't know for 2-3 years. I'd wait to trade and see what we have in 2013. No point in getting a B grade ready now KPD, then having Grimes and Astbury and Post beign better in 2 years.