India vs China

[Pykie]

This probably deserves it's own thread considering the heightened tensions at the Line of Actual Control and given Australia signed a new defense pact with India no more than a week ago.

 

[Doss]

There will come a time when China won't be able to push India around at will and China would fully realise that given they were once in the same position themselves, so they will get their punches in while they still can.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

There will come a time when China won't be able to push India around at will and China would fully realise that given they were once in the same position themselves, so they will get their punches in while they still can.

That time never was, India has always punched back

Off memory there have been three major conflicts on the border since the 70's, and there was a minor one just recently

India is noones bitch

 

[Doss]

That time never was, India has always punched back

Off memory there have been three major conflicts on the border since the 70's, and there was a minor one just recently

India is noones bitch

China pushed India out of Aksai Chin in 1962. There's of course a whole convoluted history in that whole region where Pakistan is the third player and no one side has been free of nefarious behaviour. China and India also have problems on their eastern border near the tripoint with Burma too. It's only the central section near Bhutan and Nepal that doesn't have some sort of dispute attached to it.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

China pushed India out of Aksai Chin in 1962. There's of course a whole convoluted history in that whole region where Pakistan is the third player and no one side has been free of nefarious behaviour. China and India also have problems on their eastern border near Nepal and Bhutan too.

i know, but india hasnt been sitting on the sidelines as this has happened

the major issue is india took its eye off the ball in the 2000's with their pakistan obsession

that all changed when the chinese did their railway, something they never thought would happen (and effectively nuked indian economic and cultural influences in the area.

this thing is far from over, and will be hot once again. sounds like another chinese win however given the indians have been caught flat footed

 

[Doss]

i know, but india hasnt been sitting on the sidelines as this has happened

the major issue is india took its eye off the ball in the 2000's with their pakistan obsession

that all changed when the chinese did their railway, something they never thought would happen (and effectively nuked indian economic and cultural influences in the area.

this thing is far from over, and will be hot once again. sounds like another chinese win however given the indians have been caught flat footed

In time, I think the growth of India's power will be a good thing in terms of providing a counterweight to China - with the US self-immolating, the world needs it. The question is how long it will before India is truly in a position to really be that counterweight.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

In time, I think the growth of India's power will be a good thing in terms of providing a counterweight to China - with the US self-immolating, the world needs it. The question is how long it will before India is truly in a position to really be that counterweight.

the border fight wont ever be more than a skirmish. Chinese supply chains are already stretched maintaining a stronghold on Tibet, northern India is a bridge too far.

the proxy fight in Sri Lanka on the other hand...

India as a counterweight is something the world needs, but it wont happen as long as Modi is in charge and their focus is on fighting Muslims and Pakistan

 

[Malifice]

What is it about this time?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

What is it about this time?

Same s**t as usual. The disputed border.

China is dropping in troops on areas claimed by India (5000 initially, more incoming), and the Indians have been caught by surprise

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Kind of bizarre timing in the bigger picture given China currently has a few other verbal beefs going at the moment as well.

 

[Ants]

In time, I think the growth of India's power will be a good thing in terms of providing a counterweight to China - with the US self-immolating, the world needs it. The question is how long it will before India is truly in a position to really be that counterweight.

I wouldn't count on India ever caring too much about south-east asia. They'll help to annoy China only up to a point.

 

[freebloke]

Good analysis by an Indian news reporter

 

[Pykie]

Kind of bizarre timing in the bigger picture given China currently has a few other verbal beefs going at the moment as well.

Bizarre timing?

Worrying pattern tbh.

They look like they are just itching to flex their military muscle in actual confict. They want some battle experience for their soliders.

They've barely been involved in any major conflicts since the 70's and it's the one knock on their defence force from most atm.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I don't understand why India cares about a few crappy mountains. What exactly do they have to gain from taking them back? They'd lose far more from any kind of trade disruption.

Mind you, I have similar thoughts about Kashmir. Why do they care about a few hills and meadows? The people there want to join Pakistan, just let them. Then maybe that ridiculous pissing contest between India and Pakistan will normalise somewhat. The potential gains from peace and trade are so much greater.

 

[Doss]

I don't understand why India cares about a few crappy mountains. What exactly do they have to gain from taking them back? They'd lose far more from any kind of trade disruption.

Mind you, I have similar thoughts about Kashmir. Why do they care about a few hills and meadows? The people there want to join Pakistan, just let them. Then maybe that ridiculous pissing contest between India and Pakistan will normalise somewhat. The potential gains from peace and trade are so much greater.

Those few crappy mountains (they're spectacular by the way, wash your mouth out) are in a pretty strategic position though, basically at the crossroads of south and Central Asia, and India certainly fancies itself as a major player in Afghanistan and Central Asia.

 

[Mofra]

Those few crappy mountains (they're spectacular by the way, wash your mouth out) are in a pretty strategic position though, basically at the crossroads of south and Central Asia, and India certainly fancies itself as a major player in Afghanistan and Central Asia.

Sikkim is incredible but it would be the worst place on the planet to fight a ground war. I've trekked in winter there and it is rough without tramping through there with weapons, all on hard rations.
The border has never been properly defined either.

 

[Doss]

Sikkim is incredible but it would be the worst place on the planet to fight a ground war. I've trekked in winter there and it is rough without tramping through there with weapons, all on hard rations.
The border has never been properly defined either.

It's a pretty incredible border; three separate sections all miles from the other sections and all as impassable and rugged as each other.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Those few crappy mountains (they're spectacular by the way, wash your mouth out) are in a pretty strategic position though, basically at the crossroads of south and Central Asia, and India certainly fancies itself as a major player in Afghanistan and Central Asia.

I'm referring to Aksai Chin, which only borders India and China, not Afghanistan or any other nation. India can achieve a lot in geopolitics without controlling a couple of mountains that wouldn't give them a land bridge to central Asia anyway.

Sikkim is incredible but it would be the worst place on the planet to fight a ground war. I've trekked in winter there and it is rough without tramping through there with weapons, all on hard rations.
The border has never been properly defined either.

Again, I'm talking about Aksai Chin, which is a long way from Sikkim. I don't think China seriously disputes Sikkim anyway, they don't claim it as part of their territory.

 

[Doss]

I'm referring to Aksai Chin, which only borders India and China, not Afghanistan or any other nation. India can achieve a lot in geopolitics without controlling a couple of mountains that wouldn't give them a land bridge to central Asia anyway.


Again, I'm talking about Aksai Chin, which is a long way from Sikkim. I don't think China seriously disputes Sikkim anyway, they don't claim it as part of their territory.

Eh? I'm referring to Kashmir, not Sikkim. No it does not border Afghanistan but it's also not that far away and India holding it does mean they have more of a foothold in the areas approaching Central Asia.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

The whole of the Kashmir disputed region is a major watershed for India and Pakistan, hence its importance.

I don't understand why India cares about a few crappy mountains. What exactly do they have to gain from taking them back? They'd lose far more from any kind of trade disruption.

India should... allow a neighbour to annex their territory in the interest of trade disruption?
That's an odd take.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Eh? I'm referring to Kashmir, not Sikkim.

Yes, if you look again, the Sikkim part is in reply to Mofra, not you.

No it does not border Afghanistan but it's also not that far away and India holding it does mean they have more of a foothold in the areas approaching Central Asia.

"Not that far" means 300km worth of mountains in Chinese territory and airspace. What use is that? It's not as if it makes it convenient or even possible to move people and material from India to Central Asia by that route. China would have a stranglehold regardless.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

The whole of the Kashmir disputed region is a major watershed for India and Pakistan, hence its importance.

You're half right, it's a major watershed for Pakistan. Those rivers run east-west, not north-south. The ones that flow in India start in what is already Indian territory. And the Kashmir Valley, being a valley, doesn't originate any rivers. That's the part that India should let go, it's full of people who want to join Pakistan and are getting stamped on by the Indian army.

India should... allow a neighbour to annex their territory in the interest of trade disruption?
That's an odd take.

News flash, China has held that territory for over 50 years, and they've built highways and bases in it. It's gone and it isn't coming back, when the other party is as nationalistic and intransigent as China.

You'll find that Pakistan already made a settlement with China decades ago that gave up some territory. I maintain that the financial benefits for Pakistan, both directly through aid and indirectly through trade, have been far more beneficial than a couple of incredibly remote mountains would have been.

 

[Doss]

Yes, if you look again, the Sikkim part is in reply to the Mofra, not you.


"Not that far" means 300km worth of mountains in Chinese territory and airspace. What use is that? It's not as if it makes it convenient or even possible to move people and material from India to Central Asia by that route. China would have a stranglehold regardless.

India claims (but obviously does not control) the entirety of Pakistani Kashmir as its own however, so India's government would claim they do, or should, have a border with Afghanistan - which by extension means Pakistan would no longer have a border with China.

China's longstanding support of Pakistan is the major reason (at least prior to the nukes arriving in the late 1990s) that India never seriously tried to back that claim up militarily, beyond the odd skirmish on isolated glaciers high in the Karakorams and Himalayas.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

India claims (but obviously does not control) the entirety of Pakistani Kashmir as its own however, so India's government would claim they do, or should, have a border with Afghanistan - which by extension means Pakistan would no longer have a border with China.

This thread is about India and China, and Aksai Chin in particular. Pakistani-administered Kashmir is a separate conflict that doesn't involve the Chinese (directly). Given that the people in Pakistani-administered Kashmir are clearly Pakistani at heart, if they became part of India I'm certain they would cause insurrections similar to what India currently faces in the Kashmir Valley. And no geopolitical grandstanding in Central Asia is worth the human rights violations and military resources that would take. Both India and Pakistan should climb down from their desire for territory they don't control.

China's longstanding support of Pakistan is the major reason (at least prior to the nukes arriving in the late 1990s) that India never seriously tried to back that claim up militarily, beyond the odd skirmish on isolated glaciers high in the Karakorams and Himalayas.

Your point being?

 

[Doss]

You seem to be getting tetchy or highly strung about this going by your tone. For some reason. I'm not sure why - we're just having a discussion.

Yes the thread is about India v China and the Kashmir question is a separate one but it's not entirely unrelated either in a historical or indeed current context, China does have an interest in India never having full control in Kashmir despite their claim to be neutral on the question; their trade with Pakistan is important, and secondly, India would be in a stronger position to argue the toss over Aksai Chin in the future if they also possessed the entirety of Kashmir.