Indigenous Lions

[BuntonRules]

This weekend, with it's focus on indigenous footballers, has brought to a head a thought I have had for a while - why are we so far behind the pack in this field? 11% of lists are indigenous. The only one we have is Ash McG. To build the perfect team you need 2 or 3 indigenous players, with what they bring to the table.

One would think we would be in the box seat for Territory & Qld footballers - climate, proximity & outdoor culture are a far more attractive home than Melbourne - yet we do not see the Zephi Skinners & Liam Jurrahs. Liam Patrick was looking to be drafted for 2 years - we missed out.

I am aware we had our fingers burnt with Hooper & Proud. I am aware of the low success rate of this stategy - but high risk, high reward. And with the compromised drafts of the next few years IMO it is time to look outside of the square.

As part of the football department review appoint an indigenous recruitment/development officer. Darryl While's name leaps off of the page. Tap into Chris Johnson's expertise. Chase government funding to align our name with this incentive - you can bet the Cold Toast are with their FNQ zone/academy. Reserve 4 rookie spots for indigenous wild cards. Allocate a percentage of our academy for indigenous kids.

To paraphrase John Kennedy "just do something". Or again we will be left behind.

 

[chopperduck]

Sheldon is still playing, so we will have one out there for the round.

 

[POBT]

I'm not convinced that you need indigenous footballers to be a successful side. I think there is a tendency to typecast indigenous footballers as flashy, game breaking, outside types and I agree that you need a couple of these in a side - but Steve Johnson is no worse an option than Eddie Betts, for example. You could build an "non-indigenous" side that would be dominant - no doubt about it. So I don't think it is 100% correct that indigenous players are a must - although I concede that I can't readily think of a recent premiership side that didn't have at least 2 or 3 indigenous footballers in its best 22. Maybe West Coast with only Wirra?

But I think that the bigger issue is that indigenous footballers represent 11% of AFL footballers. If we have 3 (McGrath, Sheldon, Clarke), we have about 7%. Not so far from the average but indigenous people make up 3.6% of Qld's population, compared to a national average of 2.5%. Should we, therefore, have a greater emphasis on indigenous recruitment? I think so.

It is a bit early to make any sort of judgment about the club. As we know, we've had a few indigenous footballers who became champions at our club - and that is pretty important. But it would be nice to see us leading the way in this area.

 

[POBT]

Sheldon is still playing, so we will have one out there for the round.

And Clarke would likely be best 22 if all his limbs hadn't fallen off.

 

[acuguy]

Indigenous or non indigenous- in the end we want the best players available. In saying that it would be good to have some more indigenous footballers at our club!

 

[POBT]

It will be interesting to see how Hadley's recruitment goes over the next few years. We all know that he loves "footballers" and some of the indigenous players are the most natural footballers you will ever see. However, he also likes solid citizens and (massive generalisation coming up) many indigenous teenage footballers would not fit that typecast when the recruiters do their work.

In the Hadley era, I don't think we've drafted a single indigenous footballer (stand to be corrected). But I can't really remember him overlooking an exceptional indigenous footballer for a lesser standard non-indigenous player so it is hard to say that Hadley has a deliberate approach of avoiding indigenous talent.

Something interesting that I noticed. Whilst indigenous players make up 11% of AFL footballers, they would seem to be underrepresented at the top end of the draft. In 2009, Lewis Jetta would appear to be the first indigenous footballer drafted - pick 14 (and he was mature aged). In 2008, Hill and Yarran were top 10 picks but I can't see another indigenous player in the top 30. In 2007, Rioli was drafted at 12 and then there seems to be a big gap to the next indigenous player drafted. Again, not demonstrative of a massive problem but I reckon that recruiters would prefer to use later picks on indigenous footballers for fear of "stuffing it up" at the top end of the draft (incidentally, making Freo/Carlton's call in 2008 very interesting, given that no-one would have blinked an eye if they'd taken Rich/Ziebell instead.

 

[acuguy]

stephen hill, andrew walker, paddy ryder, x.clarke, h.bennell to name a few

 

[whatboutbob]

Assuming you guys are talking about indigenous australians, cos we've got a few PNG boys on scholarships...

 

[dlanod]

Proud's technically on our list until the end of the year...

I don't see the big deal. I think using the %age of indigenous Australians in Queensland versus the country is a furphy. How many of the Queensland outback towns will have AFL grounds versus league? Realistically we'd have to recruit from the NT or WA, the same as Sydney for example. As long as we're picking best available and not marking someone down for the colour of their skin (either way), I don't see the issue with not having a certain quota.

 

[Ironmonger]

Proud's technically on our list until the end of the year...

I don't see the big deal. I think using the %age of indigenous Australians in Queensland versus the country is a furphy. How many of the Queensland outback towns will have AFL grounds versus league? Realistically we'd have to recruit from the NT or WA, the same as Sydney for example. As long as we're picking best available and not marking someone down for the colour of their skin (either way), I don't see the issue with not having a certain quota.

Good post dlanod.

 

[Haggis McHaggis]

Proud's technically on our list until the end of the year...

I don't see the big deal. I think using the %age of indigenous Australians in Queensland versus the country is a furphy. How many of the Queensland outback towns will have AFL grounds versus league? Realistically we'd have to recruit from the NT or WA, the same as Sydney for example. As long as we're picking best available and not marking someone down for the colour of their skin (either way), I don't see the issue with not having a certain quota.

Spot on. If we were to work on the premise set in the OP, we should have kept Hooper & Corrie. End of the day, each for their own reasons, we made the call to retain better footballers and open those positions up for others. The colour of a persons skin means SFA.

Adam Goodes wrote a very good article about indigenous boys always being referred to as "magical" and how he felt it belittled the hard work on top of genuine talent, simply attributing the players quality to their ethnicity, and I couldn't help but agree with him. If a spectacular player like Russel Robertson or Jack Riewoldt had been Aboriginal, I can't help but think they would've been looked at in a different way.

 

[Skoob]

Roe, Hooper, Corrie, Proud................

 

[Dylan12]

Roe, Hooper, Corrie, Proud................

...Headland, Rusca, and McLean.

Was Danny Dickfos indigenous?

 

[Last of the Roys]

This weekend, with it's focus on indigenous footballers, has brought to a head a thought I have had for a while - why are we so far behind the pack in this field? 11% of lists are indigenous. The only one we have is Ash McG. To build the perfect team you need 2 or 3 indigenous players, with what they bring to the table.

One would think we would be in the box seat for Territory & Qld footballers - climate, proximity & outdoor culture are a far more attractive home than Melbourne - yet we do not see the Zephi Skinners & Liam Jurrahs. Liam Patrick was looking to be drafted for 2 years - we missed out.

I am aware we had our fingers burnt with Hooper & Proud. I am aware of the low success rate of this stategy - but high risk, high reward. And with the compromised drafts of the next few years IMO it is time to look outside of the square.

As part of the football department review appoint an indigenous recruitment/development officer. Darryl While's name leaps off of the page. Tap into Chris Johnson's expertise. Chase government funding to align our name with this incentive - you can bet the Cold Toast are with their FNQ zone/academy. Reserve 4 rookie spots for indigenous wild cards. Allocate a percentage of our academy for indigenous kids.

To paraphrase John Kennedy "just do something". Or again we will be left behind.

I tend to agree BuntonRules - I have had similar thoughts for some time.

Yes it is a bit of a stereotype, but it is one that exists for good reason. Aboriginal players tend to be excellent game breaking impact players. A lot of teams tend to have one or two along those lines, whereas we don't really have any (although McGrath is reasonably close to the type of player I am thinking of; and Clarke may have been a long time ago before his body died). Of course it doesn't matter if players are Aboriginal or not, but there is no need to put our collective heads in the sand when it is so obvious the amount of talent a lot of these kids have.

 

[Tim the Toolman]

I'm not getting the point if this thread? Is it that having indigenous players is great to win mAtches or is it political?
My thoughts either way: fitzroy lead the vfl with it's treatment of Aborigine players : refer to the Pastor Sir Douglas Nichols et al or if it's whether we have enough current players? My thoughts are that Melbourne with their high reliance on aboriginal also equates to much up and down performances on so many levels it would be a gamble to go too far

 

[Skoob]

...Headland, Rusca, and McLean.

Was Danny Dickfos indigenous?

Yeah, I just picked out the recent ones that have worked out really well for us

 

[Last of the Roys]

I think the commentators mentioned during the game something about one of Mitch Clark's grandparents being indigenous as well, in case anyone is interested.

 

[dlanod]

My thoughts are that Melbourne with their high reliance on aboriginal also equates to much up and down performances on so many levels it would be a gamble to go too far

I agree with the rest of the post but I'm calling BS on this bit. Saying that Melbourne are inconsistent because they have a large number of aboriginal players is lazy thinking. You don't see a lot of people saying Goodes or McLeod are/were inconsistent. Hell, we're inconsistent with only Sheldon or McGrath in our team (those crazy white boys, always so up and down). Some of the individual players at Melbourne may be inconsistent but I'd argue it's an issue with the club.

 

[BuntonRules]

Thanx for everyones response. My intent was not to demand some quota based system, or to criticise the club for previous efforts - I was merely curious as to the general concensus. Must admit I forgot Sam & X.

That said, the flair natural to many indigenous players is a real thing, & teams are better for it. How much better were we in our glory years for CJ & Darryl White.

And I do feel we could do better. CJ works in this field. Involve him. Darryl White, with his background & post Lions time in the territory is an obvious target for someone to be involved. Perhaps as a 'mentor'. With his sons coming of age there is an opening to get him back active in the club (father/son an added bonus).

As to the rookies - if I am correct we have had spare spots the last couple of years, so target a couple of youngsters from the Territory & roll the dice. I can see benefits of working with the Thunder/NTFL long term. Use their position in the QAFL to our advantage.

We have to use every avenue if we are to compete with the big clubs. Whilst I realise it all costs money, to me it is an area we have a natural advantage & at least the club should investigate the possibilities.

 

[Tim the Toolman]

I agree with the rest of the post but I'm calling BS on this bit. Saying that Melbourne are inconsistent because they have a large number of aboriginal players is lazy thinking. You don't see a lot of people saying Goodes or McLeod are/were inconsistent. Hell, we're inconsistent with only Sheldon or McGrath in our team (those crazy white boys, always so up and down). Some of the individual players at Melbourne may be inconsistent but I'd argue it's an issue with the club.

Case in point: Aaron Davey on the weekend.

 

[dlanod]

I saw. Is it any different from Sherman disappearing whenever he had a tag?

 

[Tim the Toolman]

Nah you're spot on of course. I guess what I'm trying to say is this thread can be sort of reverse-racist if you know what I mean?

The indigenouse players can have a somewhat mystical aura about them with the way they read play, can jump, kick etc... but on the other hand they can go missing in a game but that is really no different to any other bloke which you prove so correctly with Sherman. And of course we can add Daniel Rich in his second year, the almighty Browndog when they triple-team him etc...

Having said all that, it was Liam Jurrah whom won the game for Melbourne against us down at the MCG. He was unstoppable that day and was a sight to behold.

I just don't believe we should be alienating indigenouse players with a special round as it does put the wall up there between whites and non-whites when really we shouldn't be looking at the colour of the skin. Are we next going to have Asian Round, Italian Round or heaven forbid Gay Round?

 

[Haggis McHaggis]

I think the commentators mentioned during the game something about one of Mitch Clark's grandparents being indigenous as well, in case anyone is interested.

His grandfather apparently. Has his name tattooed in as part of the sleeve.

 

[Haggis McHaggis]

Nah you're spot on of course. I guess what I'm trying to say is this thread can be sort of reverse-racist if you know what I mean?

No such thing mate. Racists are racists. They come in every colour, shape & size.

The indigenouse players can have a somewhat mystical aura about them with the way they read play, can jump, kick etc... but on the other hand they can go missing in a game but that is really no different to any other bloke which you prove so correctly with Sherman. And of course we can add Daniel Rich in his second year, the almighty Browndog when they triple-team him etc...

Product of fanciful thinking, based on a limited concept of aboriginal culture in the mainstream consciousness. There is nothing 'magical' about raw natural athletic ability, and an inate sense for a game a kid's likely been playing since they were old enough to pick up a ball.

Put simply, how much bullshit about black magic would we hear if Chris Judd was aboriginal?

Having said all that, it was Liam Jurrah whom won the game for Melbourne against us down at the MCG. He was unstoppable that day and was a sight to behold.

Brennan's a great example here, because of the amount of people who saw his laid back Darwin mannerisms, some of the freakish plays he'd attempt, and assumed he was aboriginal. Could be an absolute match winner in his own right, and I have seen people, in the past, attribute that to his heritage. Here he was being given apologies for missing the top 10 aboriginal players coming into 2010

Jurrah was outstanding that day, but it wasn't his genetic markers for skin pigmentation that kicked our arses.

I just don't believe we should be alienating indigenouse players with a special round as it does put the wall up there between whites and non-whites when really we shouldn't be looking at the colour of the skin. Are we next going to have Asian Round, Italian Round or heaven forbid Gay Round?

The idea is to achieve the complete opposite, and I think it does that quite well. Inclusion/exclusion relies on how people take to the concept. Ultimately though, the AFL deserve to be applauded for their work in this area. Given the numbers aboriginal lads make up in the competition, it is not only highly appropriate, but importantly, a recognition of the shit they put up with in coming to a point now, where if someone calls them a "black ****" like that maggot down in Launy did to Buddy a few weeks ago, they aren't given a pat on the back, not chuckled at, but people are genuinely disgusted, and want the arseh*le booted for good.

That's not just an understanding of an attempt at changing social stigma's, but that's a genuine change in a national psyche that I'm proud as hell of. Australia may be a ways off being genuinely enlightened when it comes to race relations, but at least there's genuine change happening in attitudes here towards Australia's original inhabitants. It's something the AFL will be able to look back on its role in very proudly.

 

[Slattery_20]

Adam Goodes wrote a very good article about indigenous boys always being referred to as "magical" and how he felt it belittled the hard work on top of genuine talent, simply attributing the players quality to their ethnicity, and I couldn't help but agree with him.

Agree... simple rule of thumb - if you wouldn't say it to someone's face, don't say it.

I saw. Is it any different from Sherman disappearing whenever he had a tag?

Or Reimers or, in fact, a dozen others.
There are much, much better ways to talk about players than "what they offer". And the language you use can define the way you think.

The skills Bateman offers is far more similar to Rischitelli, than to Liam Jurrah. And the same for dozens of other examples. Rob Nahas is much closer to Andrew Lovett (player only) than, for example, Sheldon is or Clarke.

So the better way to talk about both is what they offer (hard utility mid/quick attacking winger), rather than who they are.

In the past I think aboriginal guys were sometimes typecast, really that's just blinkering yourself.